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Grant

How can we attract more players to Tiberian Sun?

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One good way would be to change attitude and not beeing an elitist pricks like 80% (maybe 90%) of the game. Installed game yeastarday and mostly getting kicked from every game or beeing called noob even before game starts....

if your name isn't known you suck because you haven't played 10+ years and are in the inside circle.

Yeah, good way to get new players I guess :)

Edited by Japi

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3 hours ago, Japi said:

One good way would be to change attitude and not beeing an elitist pricks like 80% (maybe 90%) of the game. Installed game yeastarday and mostly getting kicked from every game or beeing called noob even before game starts....

if your name isn't known you suck because you haven't played 10+ years and are in the inside circle.

Yeah, good way to get new players I guess :)

I don't play TS online but many people at cncnet said the same thing, elitist pricks kick you. The reason why new players don't stick around that game. It's like they're doing it on purpose to scare away new players and maybe the most toxic community of any cnc game, when there was a ladder, TS people only dodge other players, play against their idle dummy to get free win, post insults at other players, etc.

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Hmm its sadly true, there should be more oppurtunity for new players to play a game when they log in. I love that new players still try hard to learn and that they're excited for mod maps, compstomps and towerdefense maps. They truely are one of a kind on Tibsun. The admins keep updating the possibilities on creating maps like this so i made it my must to create tutorials. There is an amazing update coming and i had the privilage to test it already, so guys keep an eye on the update topic, they did alot of work! There is sooo much to come, and if you read this, go and get your game recording software already.btw... WHATS A GOOD RECORDING PROGRAM? I only seem to record my desktop lol

 

 

 

 

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On 31.5.2017 at 7:33 AM, 12345 said:

hey if you suck ya you gettin the boot. use those emoticons all you want smile smirk grin. still gonna ruin everybody's games.

So hostile, just trying to discuss what would help the game to grow but this kinda makes my point.

All kind of guides wont keep new players when they are bullied out of games, without giving them proper  reason. Rather point them out to the guides and be more polite so people wont get upset and just leave.

I am not totally new and it is  hard to get games at times already, so makes me wonder how it must feel for totally new guy.

 

Love this game and it is sad so see where it is going...

 

Edited by Japi

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yeah, feck this game and the topic!

GG bois

Edited by Japi

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 i have done some studies about what people really enjoy. It is alot of funny stuff and alot of easy stuff and some is skills, but most of all, excitement non stop.

Players seem to enjoy having a massive group of a certain unit or units. EA games know about this, thats why they added groups of infs as 1 inf in their new cnc games, which i totally think is stupid and lost its specialness. (old players should know about multi factory)

People love to see mass destruction in a single attack. Doesnt it feel wonderfull to drop an orca bomber bomb on top of 50 infs?

Players love fast games.  even speed mods seems to be very favorable. (Maybe a speed mod option in the game should be considerd to make laggy or long games or ai maps with too many units, playable)

People love to rush & people love to just build a base, (gdi and nod are perfectly balanced like that)

People love stuff they've never seen, and to learn new skills.

Obviously this is why TS is the best strategy game ever, and we have to keep its magic alive. I RECOMMEND to download and play Twisted Insurrection. Or watch the trailer. How does it feel to play/see these new images and animations. Its fuxking awesome, its beautifull and keeps the TS spark. I ASK you guys to note everything you enjoy in TS, and share it. So we can expand toward that.

Edited by Holland

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On 02/06/2017 at 4:06 AM, Japi said:

yeah, feck this game and the topic!

GG bois

You should thank him for proving your point.

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Sup boys ill b back in oct been busy as fuck took a new job moved and movin again soon w my gf aint touched a pc in months fig id hit cnc and see wht you guys been up too...jesuschrist out

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Find Newbs -> Train them !!!

Atleast show them a few tactics to build up the base in the correct order

 

you not even make more ppl play the game but you also find new friends :D

just stop acting like a lvl 80 Paladin who is ignorant to lvl 5 players in Goldshire 

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Woah there, 2007 called and asked for its suggestions back!

Seriously though, these discussions have been going on for longer than most of your have been playing, and dare I say longer than some of you have even been alive! (Stop and think about that for a moment...)

I started playing when I was 13-14, way back in 1998/1999, and even then people were moaning about the drop off in the community when RA2 came out. The thing is, when I think about it, I don't even want to come back and play TS, as quite simply there's nothing for me. The cool people have all gone, terrace bores me to tears, and there is just so much more out there these days! Sure, I miss some of you, but even since most of you have known me the community was in massive decline, and I wasn't even inspired to play properly even then (circa 2007). That's how long this game has been out for!

For me, I must say CNCNET has been a massive boon to the community. You guys have done a really great job, and managed to build a community the 'right' way -- by having a great product. Of course you have more than a few advantaged over xwis, but the less said about that the better.

So for me , I think your best bet is to focus on your core strengths, and recognise the fact that you are appealing to a completely different user base than you were 10+ years ago. So now really your focus should be:

  • Old school returning players
  • Fans of 'retro' games 
  • Fans of older RTS games
  • Fans of other cnc games found within these very forums

I could literally write for hours on this subject, and tbh I don't have the time, but am happy to check back here every so often and throw in some comments and feedback. :)

Mike

 

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Actually C&C TS was never a good game, its cool that it is now supported and can be played for nostalgy reasons but i think the efforts should be invested into the more popular (and better) games like C&C 1+2+4.

i think it is better to increase the amount of Red Alert 2 players to a stable amount of 500 online players then trying to loose time with C&C TS...

 

Currently in Red Alert 2 i still need about 10 minutes to get 4 players to a 2vs2 game...

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I respectfully disagree, v2elite, though the reason for that might just be the reason I also don't really enjoy playing online that much, and that reason is: I never cared for competetive multiplayer. And in singleplayer, Tiberian Sun is pretty damn good, it's got interesting stories, great cutscenes, great music and unique atmosphere, and that's all I really wanted from a C&C game back in the day. Red Alert 2 and Yuri's Revenge always felt too out there, too cartoony and tongue in cheek, with Red Alert 3 taking it all the way into space as far as cheese is concerned. I still play Tiberian Sun and Firestorm (using the clients provided by this site), in fact, played it today. On my own.

But multiplayer is a different story. Why? Well, it's simple - people tend to take it way too seriously for my personal liking. When I play a game, any game, all I really want is to have fun, and for me, memorizing dozens of strategies, exploiting systems and doing everything you can possibly imagine just to win a match is not fun. Now, I fully comprehend that different people have different ideas about what "fun" is. For many players, "fun" is exactly what I've described. Just not for me, I suppose. There's also the issue of, I'm not exactly sure how to put it, but let's call it "making sense". I've tried watching a couple of competitive matches played in Red Alert 2, and, well... it's not really a game anymore, it's a match of tactics being applied by people, like a mathematical formula fighting a different formula. Five dogs run there, six dogs run here, twenty tanks go here, then instantly turn around and move in a completely different direction, both bases look horrible and make no sense within the universe, but hey, they're efficient. It all makes sense if you're trying hard to win, but... it negates everything else about the game, it kills the immersion.

Maybe that's because I'm a girl, but when I build a base, it looks like something made by Westwood in a campaign, because it makes sense to me. I send dogs to patrol the perimeter with soldiers - the way it would work on an actual outpost. My forces are usually located in places that would make sense, and I attack in ways that would make sense from a, I don't know, some weird roleplaying standpoint, I suppose. I am extremely inefficient, yes. And playing against me is probably as boring as playing against the AI unless you're interested in checking out my totally realistic outpost with an intricate system of patrols and other type of logistics before annihilating it with 100 tanks. But I can't help it, really. This is my idea of having fun. And everyone else will probably disagree, that's okay. That's why I usually stay away from online multiplayer and stick to fighting the AI: it won't complain about my noob skills and will wait with saint-like patience for me to finish my decorating before doing anything :D

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9 hours ago, Lilly Blanche said:

I respectfully disagree, v2elite, though the reason for that might just be the reason I also don't really enjoy playing online that much, and that reason is: I never cared for competetive multiplayer. And in singleplayer, Tiberian Sun is pretty damn good, it's got interesting stories, great cutscenes, great music and unique atmosphere, and that's all I really wanted from a C&C game back in the day. Red Alert 2 and Yuri's Revenge always felt too out there, too cartoony and tongue in cheek, with Red Alert 3 taking it all the way into space as far as cheese is concerned. I still play Tiberian Sun and Firestorm (using the clients provided by this site), in fact, played it today. On my own.

But multiplayer is a different story. Why? Well, it's simple - people tend to take it way too seriously for my personal liking. When I play a game, any game, all I really want is to have fun, and for me, memorizing dozens of strategies, exploiting systems and doing everything you can possibly imagine just to win a match is not fun. Now, I fully comprehend that different people have different ideas about what "fun" is. For many players, "fun" is exactly what I've described. Just not for me, I suppose. There's also the issue of, I'm not exactly sure how to put it, but let's call it "making sense". I've tried watching a couple of competitive matches played in Red Alert 2, and, well... it's not really a game anymore, it's a match of tactics being applied by people, like a mathematical formula fighting a different formula. Five dogs run there, six dogs run here, twenty tanks go here, then instantly turn around and move in a completely different direction, both bases look horrible and make no sense within the universe, but hey, they're efficient. It all makes sense if you're trying hard to win, but... it negates everything else about the game, it kills the immersion.

Maybe that's because I'm a girl, but when I build a base, it looks like something made by Westwood in a campaign, because it makes sense to me. I send dogs to patrol the perimeter with soldiers - the way it would work on an actual outpost. My forces are usually located in places that would make sense, and I attack in ways that would make sense from a, I don't know, some weird roleplaying standpoint, I suppose. I am extremely inefficient, yes. And playing against me is probably as boring as playing against the AI unless you're interested in checking out my totally realistic outpost with an intricate system of patrols and other type of logistics before annihilating it with 100 tanks. But I can't help it, really. This is my idea of having fun. And everyone else will probably disagree, that's okay. That's why I usually stay away from online multiplayer and stick to fighting the AI: it won't complain about my noob skills and will wait with saint-like patience for me to finish my decorating before doing anything :D

You just described exactly how I play, especially in Supreme Commander which is my most recent RTS, I always build beautiful bases! I build them like I build the bases I put in my single-player missions. I also build walls. *nods* All buildings neatly arranged with queued production lines and transport aircraft assisting factories and all the other stuff you just can't do in player versus player.

Maybe you and I could play co-operative versus the AI? Then we can build mutually supporting attractive bases! Or something. :D

Edited by nariac

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Maybe it would make sence for CNCNet to make a fusion/cooperation with xwis?

I think for some casual gamers it is to complicated to install additional stuff... I think this could become a big story of success

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12 hours ago, Lilly Blanche said:

I respectfully disagree, v2elite, though the reason for that might just be the reason I also don't really enjoy playing online that much, and that reason is: I never cared for competetive multiplayer. And in singleplayer, Tiberian Sun is pretty damn good, it's got interesting stories, great cutscenes, great music and unique atmosphere, and that's all I really wanted from a C&C game back in the day. Red Alert 2 and Yuri's Revenge always felt too out there, too cartoony and tongue in cheek, with Red Alert 3 taking it all the way into space as far as cheese is concerned. I still play Tiberian Sun and Firestorm (using the clients provided by this site), in fact, played it today. On my own.

But multiplayer is a different story. Why? Well, it's simple - people tend to take it way too seriously for my personal liking. When I play a game, any game, all I really want is to have fun, and for me, memorizing dozens of strategies, exploiting systems and doing everything you can possibly imagine just to win a match is not fun. Now, I fully comprehend that different people have different ideas about what "fun" is. For many players, "fun" is exactly what I've described. Just not for me, I suppose. There's also the issue of, I'm not exactly sure how to put it, but let's call it "making sense". I've tried watching a couple of competitive matches played in Red Alert 2, and, well... it's not really a game anymore, it's a match of tactics being applied by people, like a mathematical formula fighting a different formula. Five dogs run there, six dogs run here, twenty tanks go here, then instantly turn around and move in a completely different direction, both bases look horrible and make no sense within the universe, but hey, they're efficient. It all makes sense if you're trying hard to win, but... it negates everything else about the game, it kills the immersion.

Maybe that's because I'm a girl, but when I build a base, it looks like something made by Westwood in a campaign, because it makes sense to me. I send dogs to patrol the perimeter with soldiers - the way it would work on an actual outpost. My forces are usually located in places that would make sense, and I attack in ways that would make sense from a, I don't know, some weird roleplaying standpoint, I suppose. I am extremely inefficient, yes. And playing against me is probably as boring as playing against the AI unless you're interested in checking out my totally realistic outpost with an intricate system of patrols and other type of logistics before annihilating it with 100 tanks. But I can't help it, really. This is my idea of having fun. And everyone else will probably disagree, that's okay. That's why I usually stay away from online multiplayer and stick to fighting the AI: it won't complain about my noob skills and will wait with saint-like patience for me to finish my decorating before doing anything :D

I understand lilly, but the TS single player already works pretty well. I think the discussion is about how to attract players for long term... and this is multiplayer.

Sure Single Player has to be maintained to keep compatibility and so on.

And about the "Red Alert 2 = too cartoony" - yes it is, that was also my first impression after release, but the game is not good because of the looks but because of the balancing

maybe - just maybe - because i heard that statement "is too cartoony" so often, maybe this could be a future thought to switch the Theme of the whole game:

 

Options in Menü:

Choose RA2 Look:

1. Classic

2. Realistic (same color and shape but more realistic, buildings... dolphins will be small submarines etc.)

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Well they are a lots of great games that need love i am sure but be careful with that learning curve, sometimes is not how difficult is play the game not means that the gameplay is better, i hope have more free time for explore all of that old games. Remember make an statue whit stone tools can be difficult and need more skills but that don't means that make an statue with steel tools is not a good statue, sorry for my english. 

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On 10/18/2017 at 12:08 AM, v2elite said:

Actually C&C TS was never a good game, its cool that it is now supported and can be played for nostalgy reasons but i think the efforts should be invested into the more popular (and better) games like C&C 1+2+4.

TS is actually a good game, why should efforts be invested into more popular (and who says they are better) games?

On 10/18/2017 at 12:08 AM, v2elite said:

i think it is better to increase the amount of Red Alert 2 players to a stable amount of 500 online players then trying to loose time with C&C TS...

Why?

On 10/18/2017 at 12:08 AM, v2elite said:

Currently in Red Alert 2 i still need about 10 minutes to get 4 players to a 2vs2 game...

Cool

On 10/18/2017 at 2:04 AM, Lilly Blanche said:

Red Alert 2 and Yuri's Revenge always felt too out there, too cartoony and tongue in cheek

You're kidding, isn't it? Please tell me that's a bad joke...

On 10/18/2017 at 2:04 AM, Lilly Blanche said:

When I play a game, any game, all I really want is to have fun, and for me, memorizing dozens of strategies, exploiting systems and doing everything you can possibly imagine just to win a match is not fun

Learning the game is not fun? Why do you play it then?

On 10/18/2017 at 2:04 AM, Lilly Blanche said:

it's not really a game anymore, it's a match of tactics being applied by people, like a mathematical formula fighting a different formula

You're funny...

On 10/18/2017 at 2:04 AM, Lilly Blanche said:

Five dogs run there, six dogs run here, twenty tanks go here, then instantly turn around and move in a completely different direction

Umm... you never scout the map? How do you see enemy's base and units? How do you predict a rush? Please tell me your secret...

On 10/18/2017 at 2:04 AM, Lilly Blanche said:

both bases look horrible and make no sense within the universe, but hey, they're efficient.

You know how dumb that sounds isn't it?

On 10/18/2017 at 2:04 AM, Lilly Blanche said:

It all makes sense if you're trying hard to win

Please tell me you're kidding...

If you knew a little bit about the game, you'd realize it's not all random building and sending units to random locations doing random stuff "trying hard to win"... Seriously

23 hours ago, v2elite said:

Maybe it would make sence for CNCNet to make a fusion/cooperation with xwis?

I think for some casual gamers it is to complicated to install additional stuff... I think this could become a big story of success

Olaf is Olaf, so no

10 hours ago, Mystic Black said:

it's popular because a wider variety of people without talent can play it at a high level due to its lack of depth

LOL

10 hours ago, Mystic Black said:

Which means even simpler minded people can play it, have an ego with it, and enjoy winning some games.

Are you okay buddy? Have a sit...

10 hours ago, Mystic Black said:

less people enjoy TS because you have to lose a lot and lose for a long time before you start getting good enough to have fun. The learning curve is substantial to the point where top ra2 players try to play TS and are totally lost and toyd around with by low end TS players.. but I can log into Ra2 and be competitive with anyone since your entire game is merely as complicated as the first 3-5 minutes of a TS game involving an infantry rush and scouting tactics. 

bs

10 hours ago, Mystic Black said:

Dont hate on TS because you don't have the cognitive ability to maintain high APM, concentration, and game IQ to have any fun with it. There's a reason chess and checkers both exist. A ton more ppl enjoy checkers for the same reason more people enjoy Ra2. Doesn't mean either should be discarded. 

LOL

10 hours ago, Mystic Black said:

Furthermore, having anything to do with Olaf/Xwis would be a huge mistake. The Xwis community is trash and nothing to ingrate haters. I refuse to associate with any project involving them.

You have some serious issues

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1 hour ago, Lud0wig said:

Learning the game is not fun? Why do you play it then?

I learned enough about the game to beat the GDI and NOD campaigns in both the original game and in the expansion. Since I'm not interested in being competitive online, that's enough learning for me. And that's your answer as to why I play it - because I like it in general. 

1 hour ago, Lud0wig said:

You're kidding, isn't it? Please tell me that's a bad joke...

Uh, no, I'm not. Compared to Tiberian Sun, Red Alert 2's story is hilarious and it doesn't even try to take itself even remotely seriously. The only thing that's missing during the cutscenes is a laugh track in the background between Romanov's lines delivered with an over the top fake Russian-ish accent. I mean, come on, those guys were chewing up the scenery like it's nobody's business. 

1 hour ago, Lud0wig said:

You're funny...

Why, thank you. And you are unnecessarily rude. 

1 hour ago, Lud0wig said:

Umm... you never scout the map? How do you see enemy's base and units? How do you predict a rush? Please tell me your secret...

I scout the map. With squads of soldiers that are well equipped to fight back if necessary. 

1 hour ago, Lud0wig said:

You know how dumb that sounds isn't it?

No, I really don't. I like to immerse myself in the game, not game it up to the best of my abilities. 

1 hour ago, Lud0wig said:

Please tell me you're kidding...

If you knew a little bit about the game, you'd realize it's not all random building and sending units to random locations doing random stuff "trying hard to win"... Seriously

I know what they're doing and why. I just don't find this style of gameplay appealing or interesting, that's all.

See, here's the problem, Lud0wig: you seem to think that only the people who have mastered the online scene truly know the game, but that's not exactly how it is. It all depends on your perspective and on what you consider the game being truly about. I never cared for multiplayer, so for me personally, that part of the game is completely unnecessary, and if it were to disappear completely from the menu, I probably wouldn't even notice. Other people probably treat singleplayer the exact same way as I treat multiplayer. And that's okay. Both people who enjoy singleplayer and people who enjoy multiplayer know and enjoy the game - just the different aspects of it. There's no need to be rude or condescending simply because someone doesn't view the things the same way you do. It doesn't make you look better, it makes you look much worse than you really are. 

On 18.10.2017 at 11:12 AM, nariac said:

You just described exactly how I play, especially in Supreme Commander which is my most recent RTS, I always build beautiful bases! I build them like I build the bases I put in my single-player missions. I also build walls. *nods* All buildings neatly arranged with queued production lines and transport aircraft assisting factories and all the other stuff you just can't do in player versus player.

Maybe you and I could play co-operative versus the AI? Then we can build mutually supporting attractive bases! Or something. :D

Yay, I'm not alone in this cruel world of wall building! :D Sure, why not? Playing coop like that sounds exactly like something I'd gladly invest an evening or two :) 

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Yeah, about that building a beautiful base thing, everyone wants a beautiful base (including me, I like building walls, position war factories in one row, service depot perfectly aligned to the middle war factory, silo by refineries...) but sadly you can't be able to do it on most games with real people. You are restricted and limited to a certain build order/strategy because if you mess up, the guy with the superior tactics wins. At least that what happens in high level play. I stopped playing online with people, they all keep dodging me, disconnect from internet while losing, angrily calling you names when you beat them using a tactic they disliked/different from them, etc. And when I came back online a few months ago, the remaining people are only obssessed with symmetric maps (i mean the really bad ones) and terrace.

I mean Tiberian Sun looks a lot better before you started playing online, better than other C&C as you can happily build walls, firestorm/laser fences, automatic gates, pavement, base defense that works like superweapons (emp), harvesting tiberium veins (those orange things), etc looks very appealing but when you play online, you realize all this were badly implemented as your tactics are dumbed down to do only what is necessary. Why play TS when there are plenty of newer games that forces you to only do what is necessary while the unique stuffs TS has to offer are useless/unnecessary/badly implemented.This is why it's very hard to attract more new players. I don't even think we can attract the old TS players back.

 

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If You want to attract newcomers to the game the easiest way is to write / record strategy guides with openings, mid-game tactics and late-game instructions. This is how StarCraft maintain player base, because there is always something to learn or practice about. Anyway, I know there are some strategy guides "out there" but honestly, we should consider upload them on some Wiki fanpage with link to CnCNet so new players won't feel lost. 

What are pros? First of all, the veterans can assume that rivals at least knows basics. That makes game at least competetive and not a waste of time when the oponent rather on conflict focuses on base-building. Secondly, players at least know what are the build orders so even if they don't feel confident in 1v1, they can try 2v2 or 4v4. Lastly, organise some kind of "n00b League" with "no pressure" rules so even if some people won't make any progress after some time in game, they can at least have some fun. 

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Are there any admins around who can do something about this topic title problem at all?

Like implementing something that might work as solution?

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9 hours ago, Mystic Black said:

I am impressed with your argument/debate skills.

I obviously have a name for someone who never played RA2 or YR and writes such aberrations, but I can't write it.

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40 minutes ago, Mystic Black said:

I bet you think you are special tho playing with an ego 15 years after the game stopped being relevant

What?

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23 hours ago, Pigeon said:

If You want to attract newcomers to the game the easiest way is to write / record strategy guides with openings, mid-game tactics and late-game instructions. This is how StarCraft maintain player base, because there is always something to learn or practice about. Anyway, I know there are some strategy guides "out there" but honestly, we should consider upload them on some Wiki fanpage with link to CnCNet so new players won't feel lost. 

What are pros? First of all, the veterans can assume that rivals at least knows basics. That makes game at least competetive and not a waste of time when the oponent rather on conflict focuses on base-building. Secondly, players at least know what are the build orders so even if they don't feel confident in 1v1, they can try 2v2 or 4v4. Lastly, organise some kind of "n00b League" with "no pressure" rules so even if some people won't make any progress after some time in game, they can at least have some fun. 

I'm sorry Pigeon, but this is a very ignorant comment, and ignores the fact that Starcraft and TS are two very different games. I say this as the guy who *did* write the strategy guide, back in 2007, with a few updates in 2013 and later. It's now pretty well search optimised, and given the stats linking not only from my own website, but also from the blog version of the guide, I reckon a large number of players are playing on xwis or cncnet just because of my guide. Not trying to blow my own trumpet, but we've been there and done that you know -- many, many years ago.

Honestly, you all need to accept that TS is not appealing to the same audience it was appealing to back in 1999. I was 14 back then and wanted to play online to show off and beat my mates. Kids these days don't care about the likes of TS when they can play better games on their smart phones. The world is a very different place to what it was in 1999 -- the community needs to adapt to reflect this. 

Edited by Mole40k

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19 hours ago, Mole40k said:

I'm sorry Pigeon, but this is a very ignorant comment, and ignores the fact that Starcraft and TS are two very different games. I say this as the guy who *did* write the strategy guide, back in 2007, with a few updates in 2013 and later. It's now pretty well search optimised, and given the stats linking not only from my own website, but also from the blog version of the guide, I reckon a large number of players are playing on xwis or cncnet just because of my guide. Not trying to blow my own trumpet, but we've been there and done that you know -- many, many years ago.

Honestly, you all need to accept that TS is not appealing to the same audience it was appealing to back in 1999. I was 14 back then and wanted to play online to show off and beat my mates. Kids these days don't care about the likes of TS when they can play better games on their smart phones. The world is a very different place to what it was in 1999 -- the community needs to adapt to reflect this. 

 

Oh, I'm sorry but IMHO Your work barely fills the term of "strategy guide". Except general descriptions here'n'there this so-called "guide" isn't guiding at all. For instance - what is (or was) the most popular army composition for GDI and Nod? How to make fast eng-rush? How to control the map? What are the key points on several maps to keep eye on? How to expand? 

I'm not critisizing nor arguing with You but lack of basic build orders or how to control army numbered in few dozens are just a few things to hand on utter novice. 

StarCraft: Brood War isn't apealing at all. Before I've stumbled upon Team Liquid's Guide I was unable to win a single game. Once I've learned two cheesy BO's I've started winning against players who also lacked of proper guidance. 

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