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MapDesigner

Is Allied vs Soviet Balanced?

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for the MX mod he tried to make use of unused/rarely used units like tesla tanks/apoc  and disabled Yuir's mags which i see as the most important thing that makes me wanna play the MX mod but for me i think the unused units being adjusted to used is kinda ruined the game apoc is too much tesla troppers r op with that range but over all its a good mod as for allies vs soviet it depend on the map and the players but lets just say the with equal skilled players sov vs allies the short term game is ganna go for soviet and at maps like DH BF small maps it's a sov map over a long term game or a campy one i would go allies late game mirages mixed with prisms [ and bfs if u r playin YR] only way is double deso bomb or very good IC
my whole point is if u think the game is ganna be short one soviet is ganna be better if u think it's ganna be long game allies is ganna be better if u can defend the rush ofc
As for yuri yea it's The strongest of them all but i think in long games allies can be better [as long as there's ora left ofc] or yuri free mutate is ganna pay later on the game vs soviet tho u go ic or pretty fast rush sell mcv even but some maps doesn't allow so

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2 hours ago, DoDger said:

for the MX mod he tried to make use of unused/rarely used units like tesla tanks/apoc  and disabled Yuir's mags which i see as the most important thing that makes me wanna play the MX mod but for me i think the unused units being adjusted to used is kinda ruined the game apoc is too much tesla troppers r op with that range but over all its a good mod as for allies vs soviet it depend on the map and the players but lets just say the with equal skilled players sov vs allies the short term game is ganna go for soviet and at maps like DH BF small maps it's a sov map over a long term game or a campy one i would go allies late game mirages mixed with prisms [ and bfs if u r playin YR] only way is double deso bomb or very good IC
my whole point is if u think the game is ganna be short one soviet is ganna be better if u think it's ganna be long game allies is ganna be better if u can defend the rush ofc
As for yuri yea it's The strongest of them all but i think in long games allies can be better [as long as there's ora left ofc] or yuri free mutate is ganna pay later on the game vs soviet tho u go ic or pretty fast rush sell mcv even but some maps doesn't allow so

I would disagree. Not because I made the mod, but because I don't see instances where the apoc is unchallenged. Tesla troopers are pretty easily dealt with with desos/seals/snipers.

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Allow me to elaborate on the so-called allied power problem (APP) to clarify why i think its so fundamental to this topic, knock some sense into u knuckleheads 

 

---The tesla reactor takes ~5 seconds to construct, whereas the allied equivalent takes 8 seconds. Lets take a moment to consider the situation that this puts allies in at tier 1.  
  

    1. If, for any reason, such as landrush, the 2 factions spawn next to each other, the allied will be killed in under 60 seconds.
    2. . If you go one miner as an allied,  and the soviet goes 0, at 1:20 the sov will have 2 rhino tanks to your 0 --count them-- 0 ---weaker tanks. Meaning: you could be killed in 2 minutes. 
    3. The allies have no rush threat 
    4. The sov scout faster 
    5. The sov capture oils and ports faster therefore
    6. Are better at / vs laming  and 
    7. Have reinforcements / additional funds faster 
    8. The all-important first reinforcements from America's airforce command are 3 seconds late
    
---At tier 2, the second power plant is constrcuted--  a total of 6 seconds now. The problems get worse.

    1. The sov timing pushes (2, 3, 4 war) are enhanced in strength
    2. And duration
    3. The allies have no tier 2 push of their own, they are still bleeding from loss of time
    4. Sov middle game hits first 
    5. Miner all-ins are extra threatining.     
    6. The solution for allies is to go tier 3 and
    
--Tier 3 is reached and the allies fall further behind. 


    1. The very first thing you do at tier 3 is get another power plant    
    2. The sov's 3rd power is the nuclear reactor, the last source of power they will ever need.     
    3. In fact, they can sell their previous power constructs (and ore refineries) and essentially get the nuke reactor for free as a cherry-on-top.
    4. While power is now a non-factor for sov, the allied can not build a chronosphere and ore pureifier at the same time-- they each require an additional power plant
    5. Weather storm and prism towers? Extra power plants    
    6. Sov tier 3 units hit first  **** and this is a big one, boys     
        For instance. That time window where the dreadnaught first hits..... nuff said
    7. Ic is up first. On average, 2 ics hit for every chronosphere, and this is assuming the ore pure isnt prioritized 
    9. nuke is up first 
    10. Critical mass of mirage is delayed
    11. Spy attempt is delayed 
          ......etc etc the list goes on .

It allllll comes down to the power problem, boys. Fix it, and u fix the game   (in my not-so-humble- angel-of-darkness opinion)

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7 hours ago, FlyingMustache said:
8 hours ago, dkeeton said:

I'm also someone who doesn't play Yuri's Revenge and I don't know what I'm talking about, but...

It didn't seem to me that the game needs a lot of mods to balance allied vs soviet. Just soviet power plant should be nerfed 150 -> 100.

What is your reasoning for that?

To force another power plant before Soviets can build a radar or 2nd war factory.

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The power problem is correct and all, but in most cases, I make sure that the Soviet player makes that 3rd powerplant because they know what happens when they don't. :)

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2 hours ago, FReQuEnZy said:

The power problem is correct and all, but in most cases, I make sure that the Soviet player makes that 3rd powerplant because they know what happens when they don't. :)

Even if you do this in a way that actually inconveniences the sov , you only equalize--no advantage is gained. You could also mess up and drop a bunch of rocketeers to one flak track, granting it veteran status in the process. Anything can be debated and has a counter, apart from the APP, its elementary. My analog to you would be chess. White moves first and therefore has an intrinsic advantage. 

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22 hours ago, FlyingMustache said:

I would disagree. Not because I made the mod, but because I don't see instances where the apoc is unchallenged. Tesla troopers are pretty easily dealt with with desos/seals/snipers.

maybe i didn't play it long enough but all i saw that these 2 where so strong or maybe iam just used to the normal play spamming rhinos hardly mixing any apoc so iam not used to it

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Is the OP getting anything out of this? He should notice that the Soviets are not as weak as he initially perceived by now.

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18 hours ago, ore_truck said:

Is the OP getting anything out of this? He should notice that the Soviets are not as weak as he initially perceived by now.

Ive been watching couple of pro games. It seema that the game is badically decided by 2 factors:

1-) how effecient the trade

2-)and who has more tanks

 

I was actually surprised as to how the matches develop. I can see now why Warcraft III has tax for larger army and has unit cap. This style actually does seem very interesting. I also dont see why the map selection is always so small. Spy sat is bad in pro games because all pro maps are in a tiny millimeter. Its only natural for such small maps 4 dogs can reveal the whole map lol

 

Anyway, I think navalmaps will be much better instead of just mass-tank maps lol.

 

I even rarely seen amyone care to tick. Its basically mass rhinos vs mass grizzly game haha

 

I think non pro style is much more enjoyable (maybe in warcraft too)

 

I probably need to rethink about all of this. So far it seems that most statements in this thread can be valid in the correct map, although they seem contradicting. So its basically down to the personal preference and the balance should be made depending on maps popularity.

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1 hour ago, MapDesigner said:

Spy sat is bad in pro games because all pro maps are in a tiny millimeter. Its only natural for such small maps 4 dogs can reveal the whole map lol

Haha, that's why I said the allied surveillance isn't a huge thing, you just need dogs (or maybe rocketeers).

 

1 hour ago, MapDesigner said:

2-)and who has more tanks

Its basically mass rhinos vs mass grizzly game haha

Yup, it's been like that in almost every C&C game, especially Red Alert 1 & 2. Tanks do all the job mostly, other units are just support (which can make a lot of difference if used correctly, but tanks are still the main unit). The real skill is also about balancing your income gatherers and war factories because you want to get a lot of tanks the soonest while having a good economy and choosing where/when is the right time to attack.

The soviet downsides you talked about like having slower aircraft or inferior V3s matters little in tank games.

1 hour ago, MapDesigner said:

I think non pro style is much more enjoyable

Yeah, I had a lot if fun playing with Tank destroyers and Tesla tanks.

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absolutely not. the game is complete easy mode as allies on anything but the bog standard maps. as soon as allied gets the lab it's gg for soviets.

mirage tanks completely counter rhinos and apocs and all infantry. rocketeers will force apocs to shoot them first which makes an already bad unit useless.

mass prisms are even worse. huge range, one shot all infantry, aoe, melts all tanks.

battlefortress....just lol.

allies get good nations, while only worthless soviet is iraq. allies get gap generators, because fuck you. they also get spy sats if he sucks to recon, and a nifty ore purifier which gives extra $$$$ to spend on whatever he likes, unlike the shitty industrial plant.

think of this. the only way soviets can win is to abuse another badly designed unit which is the deso. when a nation needs some crutch to beat another nation which is basically a huge crutch you have your answer. and even then the soviets actually need to use brainpower, allied has the game basically do everything for him. westwood really had a huge hard on when they designed allies hahah

Edited by xe3

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1 hour ago, xe3 said:

absolutely not. the game is complete easy mode as allies on anything but the bog standard maps. as soon as allied gets the lab it's gg for soviets.

mirage tanks completely counter rhinos and apocs and all infantry. rocketeers will force apocs to shoot them first which makes an already bad unit useless.

mass prisms are even worse. huge range, one shot all infantry, aoe, melts all tanks.

battlefortress....just lol.

allies get good nations, while only worthless soviet is iraq. allies get gap generators, because fuck you. they also get spy sats if he sucks to recon, and a nifty ore purifier which gives extra $$$$ to spend on whatever he likes, unlike the shitty industrial plant.

think of this. the only way soviets can win is to abuse another badly designed unit which is the deso. when a nation needs some crutch to beat another nation which is basically a huge crutch you have your answer. and even then the soviets actually need to use brainpower, allied has the game basically do everything for him. westwood really had a huge hard on when they designed allies hahah

nonsense. lol

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41 minutes ago, ZiGZaG said:

nonsense. lol

i've just been playing too many aids maps like red zones, ww5 and top dog's challenge. i love allied in those maps.

Edited by xe3

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On 9/12/2017 at 1:16 AM, VWWWWWWWWWWW said:

But if you're playing on YR, many people play retarded campfest maps where you really only need to sit there while your opponent has 1-2 tiny entrances they can attack from, in which case. the skill level involved is so diminished none of what I said even matters really.

 

ye this is exactly what i play now. fuck soviets, allies all the way ! ! ! i also like to trashtalk and say that i win because of skill only and not bad design maps + bad design nation (allied)

see that rhino army the commie has built? no problem all i have to do is buy 1 seal $1000 and insta-blow up the only bridge. commie doesn't have this luxury. outplayed nerd i love ww5!!!!! commie would also die against skill tanks like mirage and prism that don't even need control to win against 99% of players. red zones is just the mastery of tank control.

Edited by xe3

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24 minutes ago, xe3 said:

i've just been playing too many aids maps like red zones, ww5 and top dog's challenge. i love allied in those maps.

dude...

11 minutes ago, xe3 said:

ye this is exactly what i play now. fuck soviets, allies all the way ! ! ! i also like to trashtalk and say that i win because of skill only and not bad design maps + bad design nation (allied)

see that rhino army the commie has built? no problem all i have to do is buy 1 seal $1000 and insta-blow up the only bridge. commie doesn't have this luxury. outplayed nerd i love ww5!!!!! commie would also die against skill tanks like mirage and prism that don't even need control to win against 99% of players. red zones is just the mastery of tank control.

Are you dreaming?

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also spy is great for only $1000 or so you can get free tech, free exp or free 20k. not too shabby.

technically speaking 1 seal or tanya can also sink 100 dreadnoughts. name one commie unit that has such value. damn, allied has everything covered!

Edited by xe3

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yea it does. pretty sure i kicked your ass before too. i'm the ww5/redzones/aidschallenge champion!

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11 minutes ago, xe3 said:

yea it does. pretty sure i kicked your ass before too. i'm the ww5/redzones/aidschallenge champion!

sorry to be the one to say this to u but i think we r talkin about the normal games not it's modes at normal games normal maps let's say Dune what u r sayin is waaaay off target

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22 minutes ago, xe3 said:

yea it does. pretty sure i kicked your ass before too. i'm the ww5/redzones/aidschallenge champion!

As soon as you take the game and manipulate it the way those maps do, your argument in this thread becomes useless.

 

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27 minutes ago, XXxPrePxX said:

As soon as you take the game and manipulate it the way those maps do, your argument in this thread becomes useless.

 

AND YET MOST GAMERS PLAY THESE MAPS

CHECKMATE

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