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Unanimous Change


FlyingMustache
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1 hour ago, TK3600 said:

4. Demo truck same hp as flak truck, and deal enough damage to kill war factory and enough radiation to kill survivor infantry come out of building. Cost 1400.

1

Kinda pointless then seeing as the shortcoming of the Demo truck is that it lacks HP to get close to larger army groups and it deals little damaged against armour and base defences, which is what I purposed the demo truck towards with my own balance mod. (separate from ai)

The above-described problem raises when countering allied Mirage & Prism tanks and seeing any use in battles it already works as a split unit by default but is easily countered, with your edit it wouldn't see more use than the default as it's function remains more or less the same.

 

1 hour ago, TK3600 said:

5. Terrorist can be build immediately with barrack, immune to friendly terrorist, immune to tank crush, damage buff to 3 hit a barrack.

2

This overpowers the Terrorist and enables 5 to easily kill an MCV (probably), while being very cheap.

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1 hour ago, TK3600 said:

Have you guys tried my AI mod? I think I did a great job balancing too. I will not say it is perfect, but every change is made carefully and conservatively. Many of the changes mentioned I already made. Namely these but not all. Reference: grizzly range is 5, rhino is 5.75

1. Tesla trooper fire range buffed to 5, with enough rate of fire to beat a grizzly but not Rhino. Previously it lose to grizzly if both stand still.

2. Tank destroyer range is 6.5, will fire first against Rhino. It was 5 before.

3. Apocalypse tank can fire on move.

4. Demo truck same hp as flak truck, and deal enough damage to kill war factory and enough radiation to kill survivor infantry come out of building. Cost 1400.

5. Terrorist can be build immediately with barrack, immune to friendly terrorist, immune to tank crush, damage buff to 3 hit a barrack.

6. Tesla tank range buffed from 3.5 to 5, can fire on move now.

 

I will not say they are as strong as desolator, but every nation has enough niche to justify unique unit over only using regular units.

That Tesla tank buff will give you problems. That's what I did at first in my mod.

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1 minute ago, FlyingMustache said:

What I ended up deciding is figuring out the role the tesla tank would fill. Sovs already have great anti heavy armor and anti building. They have weak anti infantry and weak anti light armor. So I made the tesla tank excel at that instead and weakened the damage vs heavy armor. Now I think it's in a good spot.

People will only use a handful of them or in specific circumstances as part of their army then as rhino tanks are cheaper can damage light armour just as easily.
Only effective against GI camp to think of it really, I'd still just make rhinos.

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33 minutes ago, FReQuEnZy said:

Kinda pointless then seeing as the shortcoming of the Demo truck is that it lacks HP to get close to larger army groups and it deals little damaged against armour and base defences, which is what I purposed the demo truck towards with my own balance mod. (separate from ai)

The above-described problem raises when countering allied Mirage & Prism tanks and seeing any use in battles it already works as a split unit by default but is easily countered, with your edit it wouldn't see more use than the default as it's function remains more or less the same.

 

This overpowers the Terrorist and enables 5 to easily kill an MCV (probably), while being very cheap.

They are not meant to counter tanks, just better than before. It does have rad level from 100 to 135, 35% increase, can cause enough damage to justify the cost. Also the pressure it exerts early on, before mirage exists.

 

Terrorist have no range. It serves as a deterant to force ally build infantry guard. It also serves as cheap anti grizzly. 1 sentry gun, pill box zone it out. Still worst special unit IMO. 

Not to say con yard has different armor type takes more to kill, and engineer technically will one hit it.

Edited by TK3600
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26 minutes ago, TK3600 said:

Also the pressure it exerts early on, before mirage exists.

1

Easy to counter, just send 1 tank to intercept or use planes, rocketeers even a few gi so it would never reach it's intended target.

 

27 minutes ago, TK3600 said:

Terrorist have no range. It serves as a deterant to force ally build infantry guard. It also serves as cheap anti grizzly. 1 sentry gun, pill box zone it out. Still worst special unit IMO. 

4

People would normally use dogs or GI to counter them rather than $500 pillbox or sentry... Which still leaves it quite useless.

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2 hours ago, FReQuEnZy said:

People will only use a handful of them or in specific circumstances as part of their army then as rhino tanks are cheaper can damage light armour just as easily.
Only effective against GI camp to think of it really, I'd still just make rhinos.

I think you forgot they have splash/arching damage as well now. :P

The rhino deals 67.5 damage to light armored units, while the tesla tank deals 114.75. Almost double. With the arching bolts I added, it will hit another 3 nearby light armored tanks for 25.5 damage each. That's 191.25 damage. Almost triple the rhinos' damage in one volley. It deals with infantry slightly better than a prism tank, without the extreme weakness to radiation. In game testing in mx has been quite well too. It's not used for every situation no, but it's not meant to either. 

Earlier versions of the tesla tank made all tanks obsolete, and that's what I wanted to avoid.

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2 hours ago, FReQuEnZy said:

Easy to counter, just send 1 tank to intercept or use planes, rocketeers even a few gi so it would never reach it's intended target.

 

People would normally use dogs or GI to counter them rather than $500 pillbox or sentry... Which still leaves it quite useless.

If we were to argue, I want to clarify a few things. I mentioned my mod because I thought the philosophy fits:

Keep things unanimous.

Avoid controversial balance change.

I make bad units less bad, never intended to make it good/meta. Whatever I change only serve to make things better than before, while make minimum people complain. Theoretically I can create perfect balance and people will still complain because our biases and skills are different. I do not intend to find the perfect balance, I want all people say "these seem like the right direction, at least things will not get worse". My approach lean toward not making enough changes, but almost never overbuff. Example being the terrorist, it is definitely buffed, we can both agree it is at least stronger than before. Whether it is strong enough is irrelevant, as long as it is unanimously agreed an improvement over original, it can be patched/implemented.

In other words, my changes lead to 3 possible consequences:

1. The buff is not enough, but it is an improvement. It is intentional, but we can talk about it if more buff is needed without any risk of drastic gameplay effect.

2. The buff is too much. Rare, but clearly not intentional. I am very keen to keep it under control and I am super open to criticisms on this.

3. Unknown/unclear. I will expand below.

 

I think the terrorist change is between 1 and 3. From my numerous testing using it against AI or face AI using it, I think it is still probably the worst unique units. You may think it is obvious, but already do you see people complain OP. I am avoiding that. And because the no tech requirement change is so drastic, and no one pvp tested online, I am holding back further buff (for example give it same hp as conscript) until I see it is not at risk of OP. It is super hard to propose changes here, and super easy to shot down proposals because "purist" dominates here. (Like RA2 vs YR, even developers are under fire let alone me!)

Now with that out of the way, I will share you my personal opinion of the buff and why terrorist can be possibly be 'strong':

1. Without any terrorists potential pressure, there is an optimal build up. Hypothetically it means leaving army a bit weak until certain tech unlock, say the war factory(dont argue, just an example). The mere possibility of terrorist attack means enemy should deviate the optimal build up to have early defenses. It is highly unpredictable due to how early it is available, before your dog even scouted, so you cannot say it will not happen.

2. All possible counter has flaws, assume the terrorist didnt succeed set you back by blow up buildings. Tanks are hardly an counter. It is available before war factory, and when it exists the most useful period of terrorist is already over, and the new buff prevent crushing means a repair bill on grizzly is worth 300, a terrorist cost 200. Dogs killing terrorist will die too, 200 cost vs 200 is flat. Pill box cost 500 vs terrorist's 200, and may not fully cover the base. Infantry is slower than terrorists and has low range, meaning you need to build enough of them, like 4-5 to cover the risk, and those are money not spent on tanks.

3. Now assuming terrorist did succeed, it set enemy build up back at a reasonable cost. Once enemy have tanks, it is not utterly useless due to it is not crushable (die without explosion), an improvement.

4. Tactics I have not thought of, like put them in flak truck. The fact terrorist not longer kill other friendly terrorist means their hp pool is increased 5 times in a group, you actually need to shoot all of them instead of kill one and detonate the rest. That leaves room to creativity. I didnt want to risk it be a new meta because terrorist attack is especially rage inducing.

Those are my thoughts. Basically terrorists can create an early advantage in economy which can snowball. Maybe it is still not enough especially compared to things like American para drop, but I think it is a step up from vanilla.

Edited by TK3600
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Mine slots in between Rhino & Apoc as an all purpose all rounder, if I made it's damage against buildings a bit weaker it would be well balanced imo as going by your design the Tesla Tank would be perfect for RA2, but quite pointless in YR due to BF being soviet's biggest nuisance as opposed to Mirages in RA2.

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3 hours ago, FlyingMustache said:

That Tesla tank buff will give you problems. That's what I did at first in my mod.

Too strong or too weak? If it is lean toward weak side see above post, it is intentional. If it is too strong, here are my thoughts. I am open to corrections.

Dps/cost: inferior to rhino slightly. Against infantry is an exception. The alpha is larger, that I agree. But not that significant I think.

hp/cost: much inferior to rhino. 300/1200 vs 400/900

range: 5 vs Rhino's 5.75.

Advantage: shreds infantry, shoot through wall, and arguably stronger than rhino when elite.

My proposal: It acts like a fire support to typical rhino attack to counter deployed infantry or fodders (dogs).

Edited by TK3600
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5 minutes ago, TK3600 said:

4. Tactics I have not thought of, like put them in flak truck. The fact terrorist not longer kill other friendly terrorist means their hp pool is increased 5 times in a group, you actually need to shoot all of them instead of kill one and detonate the rest. That leaves room to creativity. I didnt want to risk it be a new meta because terrorist attack is especially rage inducing.

Those are my thoughts. Basically terrorists can create an early advantage in economy which can snowball. Maybe it is still not enough especially compared to things like American para drop, but I think it is a step up from vanilla.

7

My comment was purely from the perspective of PvP not AI. 
How did you make the Terrorist deal no damage to itself? Surely you had to change the armour type.

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18 minutes ago, FReQuEnZy said:

My comment was purely from the perspective of PvP not AI. 
How did you make the Terrorist deal no damage to itself? Surely you had to change the armour type.

TypeImmune=yes ; not blow other friendly terrorists up.

Crushable=no ; not crushable by tank except battlefortress.

 

I know I am taking a risk when I give terrorists these buffs. I feel like it can be an interesting unit so I gave it less conventional buffs.

 

Edit: Because no one played PvP with my mod on, it is the only source of research I can find.

Edited by TK3600
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Just now, FReQuEnZy said:

They are meant to be a double edge sword of sorts where it's dangerous to use them.

It only works for other terrorists. It will certainly blow other friendly units/buildings up. I think it is fair to lift a highly restricting barrier for an already underpowered unit. Compare it's power to desolator, how can it be unfair? What if desolator melt each other deployed how useful is desolator?

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46 minutes ago, TK3600 said:

Too strong or too weak? If it is lean toward weak side see above post, it is intentional. If it is too strong, here are my thoughts. I am open to corrections.

Dps/cost: inferior to rhino slightly. Against infantry is an exception. The alpha is larger, that I agree. But not that significant I think.

hp/cost: much inferior to rhino. 300/1200 vs 400/900

range: 5 vs Rhino's 5.75.

Advantage: shreds infantry, shoot through wall, and arguably stronger than rhino when elite.

My proposal: It acts like a fire support to typical rhino attack to counter deployed infantry or fodders (dogs).

They might be too strong. They deal 135 damage to all targets except light and building armor. In my mod, I increased their range to 6 in the beginning and they tore through everything. Host a game with your mod map and I'll demonstrate their power. Also, you should join the Discord. We have these kinds of conversations in real time voice all the time there.

https://discord.gg/4Ve25mM

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12 minutes ago, FlyingMustache said:

They might be too strong. They deal 135 damage to all targets except light and building armor. In my mod, I increased their range to 6 in the beginning and they tore through everything. Host a game with your mod map and I'll demonstrate their power. Also, you should join the Discord. We have these kinds of conversations in real time voice all the time there.

https://discord.gg/4Ve25mM

[Electric]
Verses=100%,100%,100%,85%,100%,100%,50%,50%,50%,200%,100%
InfDeath=5
Wood=yes
; SJM: No piff-piff animation -- electric bolts now spawn spark systems instead.
Wall=yes ; SJM: This allows Tesla Coils to destroy bridges (approved by DB)
;CellSpread=.3
;PercentAtMax=.5
AnimList=TSTIMPCT


It should be 50% against all buildings.

I've never done maps before, see if it works. Otherwise my mod is on the main page.

deathai.mpr

Edited by TK3600
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1 hour ago, FReQuEnZy said:

Mine slots in between Rhino & Apoc as an all purpose all rounder, if I made it's damage against buildings a bit weaker it would be well balanced imo as going by your design the Tesla Tank would be perfect for RA2, but quite pointless in YR due to BF being soviet's biggest nuisance as opposed to Mirages in RA2.

That's simply becausE the battlefort is overloaded. 600hp, crush all tanks, +2 range to infantry, +20% damage to infantry. So many stats on one unit.

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2 minutes ago, TK3600 said:

[Electric]
Verses=100%,100%,100%,85%,100%,100%,50%,50%,50%,200%,100%
InfDeath=5
Wood=yes
; SJM: No piff-piff animation -- electric bolts now spawn spark systems instead.
Wall=yes ; SJM: This allows Tesla Coils to destroy bridges (approved by DB)
;CellSpread=.3
;PercentAtMax=.5
AnimList=TSTIMPCT


It should be 50% against all buildings.

I've never done maps before, see if it works. Otherwise my mod is on the main page.

deathai.mpr

That's what my post says. "...everything except light and building armor."

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1 hour ago, FlyingMustache said:

That's what my post says. "...everything except light and building armor."

Then with notable exception of infantry they are near identical with AP, Rhino warhead. Dps/cost is identical with Rhino if not less. Yes it fires slower than Rhino.

Edit: AP: 25%,25%,25%,75%,100%,100%,65%,45%,60%,60%,100%

formula=damage/rof/cost

Rhino: 90/65/900=0.001538

Tesla: 135/75/1200=0.0015

Tesla tank is lower damage per cost, with shorter range and 3/4 of Rhino's HP. The only notable armor difference is vs infantry. Rhino is slightly better at killing building, Tesla tank is better at killing light armor, evens out. Same amount of money, pure Tesla tank is less effective than Rhino as a whole unless infantry is involved. Note higher rof number means slower reload. Conscript's rof is 25.

Edited by TK3600
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5 minutes ago, TK3600 said:

Then with notable exception of infantry they are near identical with AP, Rhino warhead. Dps/cost is identical with Rhino if not less. Yes it fires slower than Rhino.

Indeed, but that's just one aspect of the weapon. The projectile itself has other factors that give it much more power over the rhino. It has no travel time. It can't be blocked by pills or infantry. It also cannot miss, even against fast units like ifvs. These things make that 135 damage bolt much more threatening than a cannonball. Don't downplay the effectiveness against infantry either. Being able to oneshot nearly all infantry makes fodder very ineffective against them in tank battles. 

I've been modding for balance for a while now, I'm just sharing my experience with you :P

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I can tell you are very experienced! I am just trying to discuss rationally. I may come across as pedantic, but you are dealing with a STEM student here. See my updated post. Tesla tank is basically same damage efficiency as rhino. While projectile speed plays a minor role, we need to think about 3 bigger difference, HP, range, and tech requirement. Range basically cancel out projectile speed difference, both hit each other around same time. HP is huge difference, 33%! Wait, there is cost!

hp/cost

300/1200=0.25

400/900=0.44

That is a huge difference! Same amount of money, a pure Rhino tank team will have 77% more HP over pure Tesla tank. Tesla tank definitely cannot replace Rhino tank unlike in old days. The only real use is to mix a few Tesla tank to fire support Rhino attacks to clear the fodders. With range 4 > 5, and fire on move, Tesla tank can fill that role better than before.

 

Edit: Correct me if I am wrong, TankBolt use an invisible projectile at speed of 100 vs Rhino's 40. TankBolt is not hitscan.

Edited by TK3600
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2 hours ago, TK3600 said:

I can tell you are very experienced! I am just trying to discuss rationally. I may come across as pedantic, but you are dealing with a STEM student here. See my updated post. Tesla tank is basically same damage efficiency as rhino. While projectile speed plays a minor role, we need to think about 3 bigger difference, HP, range, and tech requirement. Range basically cancel out projectile speed difference, both hit each other around same time. HP is huge difference, 33%! Wait, there is cost!

hp/cost

300/1200=0.25

400/900=0.44

That is a huge difference! Same amount of money, a pure Rhino tank team will have 77% more HP over pure Tesla tank. Tesla tank definitely cannot replace Rhino tank unlike in old days. The only real use is to mix a few Tesla tank to fire support Rhino attacks to clear the fodders. With range 4 > 5, and fire on move, Tesla tank can fill that role better than before.

 

Edit: Correct me if I am wrong, TankBolt use an invisible projectile at speed of 100 vs Rhino's 40. TankBolt is not hitscan.

I definitely don't mean to undermine your efforts at all my friend. :P I'm just speaking from experiencing it. In 1.0 of my mod, Tesla tank was so good that players would only build the Tesla tank. Not even when I would use the apocalypse tank (which I also allowed to shoot move) could I beat tesla tanks with fodder. Don't even get me started on games where superweapons were on. I unfortunately never recorded those games, but if you'd like, we can play some games in 1.0 of my mod. I'm sure Kireeek or some other friends of mine would be willing to demonstrate the early versions of MX.

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On 30/01/2018 at 8:01 AM, FlyingMustache said:

Maybe, but that simply makes the game homogeneous. You undermine the fundamental theme of the factions. (Like allies being light and fast)

When i originally played ur MX maps this was my biggest issue with them especially the YR faction. I liked the fact you made other units like the chaos drone more useful, but i felt it made the fight against yuri much less tactical and much more like an ra2 themed smash and grab faction.

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16 hours ago, DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr said:

@fireworks: lol, that was good.

@Legolas:  lol, why are you nervous? The only foolish thing here is your comment: "MO was designed to play against AI." Thats just a ridiculous statement. It couldn't be further from the truth. I was one of the beta testers. It was always online play, versus.

MO is balanced pretty good. And oh so the air rush was you then? Well congratulations, it was you who owned the other guy. lol, why are you nervous, you're supposed to be owning. I bet you could beat me at MO. I haven't competed in in a while.

Anyways that air rush could have been stopped. I've seen ppl do it all the time.

the only foolish thing here is that you think MO is a balanced game. name me a few balances you think that are superior to YR current condition(obviously i don't want hear that yuri faction is not as op as in YR and also you can win a good foehn player with any faction)

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