How to counter the GDI troop defence start?

[chem]

GDI players are now getting really good at defence, they are using troops like naders and mini gunners to ward off the buggy and bike rushes long enough to get the med tank army built up.

My question is how do I counter them most effectively with nod?

 

Should I attack with flamers and buggies?

Should I attack with buggies and APC (the apc for crushing)?

Should I build 1 apache to slowely pick them off and force rockets to be built?

 Should I engie rush buildings? (buildings that are not just the conyard? So they will have most of the defence around the conyard and weapons factory so then pick loaded refineries or anything that's available and then perhaps drop  a hon/turret) (This is pence style warfare)

 

Should I mix tanks artillery, flame tanks, ssm m bazooka men,  tanks,etc all mixed up groups to come fight the GDI mix later on? (I think with ssm, you can just make it a straight fight against meds which are very powerful, but you can have bikes light tanks bazookas and troops to fight the meds and you can deny their nader/troop support with the ssm, also you can force them to come to you with the ssm) ?  

 

They must spend a lot of money on those troops and then those meds and perhaps bazookas, is there anyway you can financially break the GDI  player? With some kind of cost effective pressure?

 

 

Lastly does any1 have that video ferret made that is titles GDI cant win?

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by chem

[AchromicWhite]

I think it can depend on who you're playing... but all this assumes that someone will play the same way, regardless of what you do.

Personally, I like to have some sort of aggression up my sleeve, to force my opponent to do things. If I can predict those things, that makes me life a lot easier, as I have control over the game.

With SSM in particular, while you certainly can get those "mother of all shots" moments, it can also, more or less, miss and do nothing. And it has a very slow reload time. For that reason, I'd say it's better suited to situations where people can't really attack into each other. But it certainly has a tendency to shut down troop support in a radius.

[chem]

1 hour ago, AchromicWhite said:

I think it can depend on who you're playing... but all this assumes that someone will play the same way, regardless of what you do.

Personally, I like to have some sort of aggression up my sleeve, to force my opponent to do things. If I can predict those things, that makes me life a lot easier, as I have control over the game.

With SSM in particular, while you certainly can get those "mother of all shots" moments, it can also, more or less, miss and do nothing. And it has a very slow reload time. For that reason, I'd say it's better suited to situations where people can't really attack into each other. But it certainly has a tendency to shut down troop support in a radius.

Thankyou White, very good points, you guys are so deep knowledge wise with this game!  Ive had success with APC crushing mixed with buggies and then you can still buggy and rush  early before they get missile towers or too many meds, the more troops they build the more APC's you have to build and the buggies can help a little with troop killing too with focus fire and range micro.  Then  weapons factory  demolish hopefully . What do you think of that as a counter and how would you as a GDI player counter back?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by chem

[AchromicWhite]

2 hours ago, chem said:

Thankyou White, very good points, you guys are so deep knowledge wise with this game!  Ive had success with APC crushing mixed with buggies and then you can still buggy and rush  early before they get missile towers or too many meds, the more troops they build the more APC's you have to build and the buggies can help a little with troop killing too with focus fire and range micro.  Then  weapons factory  demolish hopefully . What do you think of that as a counter and how would you as a GDI player counter back?

I have little idea how to deal with mass APC in the early game, if you're relying on troops.
I've said that sort of thing before. This is one of the reasons that I think APC should be GDI only. But this game is what it is, and each strategy may well redefine the meta completely.
Heck, maybe an earlier WF would be a way to go.

[chem]

3 hours ago, AchromicWhite said:

I have little idea how to deal with mass APC in the early game, if you're relying on troops.
I've said that sort of thing before. This is one of the reasons that I think APC should be GDI only. But this game is what it is, and each strategy may well redefine the meta completely.
Heck, maybe an earlier WF would be a way to go.

Yea the APC is more potent than the flame tank  for killing troops imo, and available right away, a brilliant scout too,  you only need 1, plus an engie surprise is always viable, I tested it out on some mid level players and just 1 APC took out so many GDI troops my buggies were able to out number and kill the rest and then get their weapons factory + conyard.  

He then tried a 1 refinery build and + an early WF it certainly made it more difficult to get him out in 1 go but made it easier on the 2nd wave, but this guy is mid level.

Maybe  you have to bring out the Humvee nader etc mix game to counter? Its a slight disadvantage vs nod that way but it might be the only viable way vs the APC troop destroyer, unless bazooka men protected by buildings etc are enough? They are kind of pricey though?

 

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by chem

[AchromicWhite]

Thing is, if you see someone going 1 ref, you can just sit back and go crazy on your own econ.

[chem]

1 hour ago, AchromicWhite said:

Thing is, if you see someone going 1 ref, you can just sit back and go crazy on your own econ.

Can you? I thought that if someone goes 1 refinery you better not go anymore than 2 otherwise they will attack you and you wont have enough units to stop them in time? Especially if they go for a conyard sell 2 airfields and an all in?

I know that's not the case if you build a ton of troops instead but that seems possible to counter with the  APC and buggies if theres not too many of them, I know some people go 5 refineries and a ton of troops for that you need more APC's and more refineries to afford them?

Helicopters and troops could work I suppose vs 1 ref since you can put that money to use fast.  Is that what you are referring to? Spend loads on refineries knowing you can then afford lots of troops and perhaps helis to counter his early vehicles?

Going on the offencive with troops right away, now that certainly works against 1 refinery builds, if theres no tiberium in the way, because they cant afford as many troops, so you can break them economically with a troop rush and more than 1 refinery especially if they are close.

Problem is if hes a good player you wont be able to scout  his base reliably until you send a Humvee , because most troop scouts don't get through if hes good (depending on the map).  By the time you have a Humvee its too late the 1 ref guy is already coming at you and you didn't have enough info to decide to go many refineries?  I noticed you did say IF you spot them.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by chem

[cn2mc]

Grenadiers are for killing the engis and not good at all vs. the APC itself. Use mass minigunners and the occasional bazooka man instead. I've said it in another thread: a helipad builds quick and a heli can damage the APC before it reaches your base. If the map has tight entrances or bridges, a heli can also block the APC.

This is all, of course, in a no WF/airstrip scenario. Having buggies and bikes or humvees is certainly better. 

[X3M]

If only you also need the radar for the APC. Or multiple engi like in RA.

 

What about having 2-3 buggies with flamers and a turret. Or 2 hummers with minigunners and a guard tower?

That is what you can have ASAP in case of an APC rush.

[chem]

11 minutes ago, X3M said:

If only you also need the radar for the APC. Or multiple engi like in RA.

 

What about having 2-3 buggies with flamers and a turret. Or 2 hummers with minigunners and a guard tower?

That is what you can have ASAP in case of an APC rush.

By APC rush we don't mean the engie APC rush in this instance (although that's usually the culprit) we are now talking about a nod counter to the GDI buggy counter (lots of troops) and the APC will not have an engie inside and it will merely be used to get rid of lots of troops (via the crush hot key) to make way for the buggy spam.

So now how does GDI counter the APC and the buggy swarm?

 

APC now stands for Armoured Personnel Crusher since it is no longer carrying any personnel

Edited May 13, 2018 by chem

[cn2mc]

Second option is better as towers can kill engis quite well, while turrets miss men by a mile and they're more of a buggy deterrent at this stage. Have the barracks/HoN on top of the CY* and pop the gren/flamer when the APC stops to unload. Having it there beforehand will only result in it being crushed, and possibly killing or damaging your own men. 

* replace at will with whatever exposed target you have for the enemy engi. 

[AchromicWhite]

I find that the troops are just bad vs APC. I've started relying more on a well placed guard tower. It hits instantly if you click the engi, and it can't be run over.

Regarding the refinery numbers (1 vs 3), I actually held both an APC and a 2 strip all in vs you on Iron. So, it can be done, but it might be map dependant (rush distance and terrain advantages).

[X3M]

A yes. The tragic dramatic empty apc. Causes more heart attacks then any other unit.

I guess you are screwed if you only have infantry at that point. Scatter is the last option.

Build towers. However, guard towers are very weak against buggies. You only build guard towers when you expect the engiAPC.

 

That turret is starting to sound nice.

Edited May 13, 2018 by X3M

[chem]

Another question Id like to ask but that is too similar for another thread is how do you counter a guy that goes 4-6 refineries and 4-6 barracks before he even builds a weapon's factory? That's a shed load of troops! You might not be able to afford enough anti infantry vehicles on a 2 refinery start to cope with like 40 troops  protected by barracks and the scatter hot key.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by chem

[AchromicWhite]

Not many people play that many... but if they're good enough to hold rushes of different sorts, you might want to look to play an econ game yourself.
I feel like if you played aggressive vs that, you could kill the con, but maybe I'm wrong.

[chem]

1 hour ago, AchromicWhite said:

Not many people play that many... but if they're good enough to hold rushes of different sorts, you might want to look to play an econ game yourself.
I feel like if you played aggressive vs that, you could kill the con, but maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks for your input white, its really appreciated! 

  

 

[X3M]

Your questions go in a RPS circular way.

How to deal with a lot of infantry? Mass APC of course.

While your first question was, how to deal with 1/mass APC if you had a lot of infantry yourself.

It is rock paper scissors.

[chem]

57 minutes ago, X3M said:

Your questions go in a RPS circular way.

How to deal with a lot of infantry? Mass APC of course.

While your first question was, how to deal with 1/mass APC if you had a lot of infantry yourself.

It is rock paper scissors.

That's what  I thought I havnt worked out the whole dynamic yet but it was looking to be a complex unsymmetrical rock paper scissors type thing. Except with more than 3 options and where one doesn't totally nullify another.  I love this game figuring it out is half the fun for me.  

Im guessing atm that the 2 refinery build is the highest % most adaptable build with the least disadvantages but also the least advantages? Picking the 2 refinery build  is like picking Ryu

Edited May 14, 2018 by chem

[X3M]

A second refinery has one disadvantage compared to 1 refinery->airfield. A difference of 2 buggies. And with 10k as start, having a second refinery after the airfield is just as good.

Of course, this is only done on maps with lots of terrain against infantry.

[chem]

1 hour ago, X3M said:

A second refinery has one disadvantage compared to 1 refinery->airfield. A difference of 2 buggies. And with 10k as start, having a second refinery after the airfield is just as good.

Of course, this is only done on maps with lots of terrain against infantry.

Only 2? That's good to know bro thanks! (ran out of thumbs up for today lol)

Although I bet its 3 on the right hand side and that's a problem when the numbers increase that much your units get wiped out much faster than an even fight, even 2 is a problem, but then you compensate with troops with the extra cash but they cost money too, but  less overall so 2 is still best probably

 

What do you think about 3? To me 3 or  is for when you are pretty damn sure they will go 2 ref, and so you try to get the edge on them not fearing a fast 1 ref rush? What do you think?

Edited May 14, 2018 by chem

[X3M]

I only go 3 ref on money maps and spam rocket soldiers around my cy after.

Also noted. I build 3 ref. Then sell 1 and rebuild one. This 2 more times to get 3 ref and 6 harv with 9 infantry for stopping scouts infantry.

It is common for me to build 3 or 4 rax and spam rocket soldiers. While I build mass wf.

The weakness to this is some one else having recon bikes at this moment. So I can't counter against it.

 

But anyone going recon bikes ASAP on a ffa is also doomed. With asap, I mean truly a 1 ref airfield build.

[chem]

9 hours ago, X3M said:

I only go 3 ref on money maps and spam rocket soldiers around my cy after.

Also noted. I build 3 ref. Then sell 1 and rebuild one. This 2 more times to get 3 ref and 6 harv with 9 infantry for stopping scouts infantry.

It is common for me to build 3 or 4 rax and spam rocket soldiers. While I build mass wf.

The weakness to this is some one else having recon bikes at this moment. So I can't counter against it.

 

But anyone going recon bikes ASAP on a ffa is also doomed. With asap, I mean truly a 1 ref airfield build.

That's an advanced build I like it, the 3 refinery build seems popular with the high level pros,  regarding your build how often do people bike rush these days? Not very often! 

Yea those extra troops are so useful when you sell

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by chem

[cn2mc]

Protip: don't spam rocket men in advance.

[AchromicWhite]

39 minutes ago, cn2mc said:

Protip: don't spam rocket men in advance.

This is actually such an important bit of information... which ignoring has costed me many games.

[BluySY]

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 5:35 AM, chem said:

Yea the APC is more potent than the flame tank  for killing troops imo, and available right away, a brilliant scout too,  you only need 1, plus an engie surprise is always viable, I tested it out on some mid level players and just 1 APC took out so many GDI troops my buggies were able to out number and kill the rest and then get their weapons factory + conyard.  

He then tried a 1 refinery build and + an early WF it certainly made it more difficult to get him out in 1 go but made it easier on the 2nd wave, but this guy is mid level.

Maybe  you have to bring out the Humvee nader etc mix game to counter? Its a slight disadvantage vs nod that way but it might be the only viable way vs the APC troop destroyer, unless bazooka men protected by buildings etc are enough? They are kind of pricey though?

 

 

Its like we were talking about last week, if u add one or two flammers in each apc u can take out most of the infantry guarding the base