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SaintZ

Is 1 ref'ing something thats frowned upon in TS?

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So I played a 1v1 Terrace match the other day where I went for a 1 ref rush as Nod. I won the game in sub 4 mins, however I received a lot of hate from my opponent afterwards.

Though the amount of salt was very funny, I am curious to know whether 1 ref'ing is something that is frowned upon by the TS community, since I am still new to this whole TS online community.

 

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None of the really good players care if you 1 ref them.

As for the non-good players, there are some who hate engineers and some who hate being rushed. And if you want to get multiple games from these people you will have to avoid doing engineer rushes. Usually 1 ref CC is acceptable.

 

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9 hours ago, JamesRyko said:

It’s nkt frowned upon as in taboo or forbidden.. 

but most people consider it kind of on the cheap side and a waste of time because it takes more luck than skill. And whether it works or it doesn’t the game is essentially ruined if you were looking for a skill/experience struggle that lasts more than 5 or 6 minutes and involves all aspects of the games skill depth. 

That being said, I’ve never heard anyone complain about it for any reason other than they wanted a game that lasts longer than 3 minutes regardless of whether they win or lose.

when people 1 ref it tends to really throw off the dynamic of the game and usually ends up either ending it in 3 minutes like I said or creating a shit scenario where your stuck in your main tib patch struggling in some kind of annoying moneyless survival situation.. which again takes away from the full skill depth of the game.

Dont concern yourself with the emo-schizophrenic ramblings and opinions of the average Cncnet community member though.. myself included.

 

I've been practicing 1 ref and 2 ref strategies with the idea to finish my opponent before he has a chance to attack. So far I've had a lot of succes with it.

I'm not bothered with the opinions of others in the sense they are just like belly buttons; Everyone has one. It just got me curious after this funny incident post match. I'm not used to people getting overly salty and hate fuelled after losing a video game. Thanks for the headsup! Now I know what to look out for.

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I haven't played much TS online, but I've always thought that on a large map like Terraces, any sort of rush would be easy to defend against because you have a lot of time to prepare before your enemy gets to your base. What are some good ways to defend against a 1-ref-rush anyway; vulcan cannons? Laser turrets? Crush infantry with harvesters? What units will you usually use to rush with Nod?

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Yeah I definately agree with what you said regarding scouting and anti-scouting. Both are very important skills that can, and will make or break your game. Once you've been scouted you're open for incoming attacks. But if you're good at both scouting and anti-scouting, your opponent will most likely have lost the game by the time he has suicided itself with a fly over OF/Harpy. 

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20 hours ago, JamesRyko said:

If anyone’s interested. Scouting and anti scouting can be improved through repetitive practice and you don’t even need another player to do so. Just start single player games and practice opening the map with your started inf.. find the best pathing and Q rallypoints to get the most coverage with the least effort and repeat then repeat the first 2-3 minutesn of the game over and over again until you perform the scouting instinctively as if it’s muscle memory. 

Then once you play against people you can adjust your pathing and timing based on tendencies you pick up from playing vs real players. Such as where the typical running paths are for when you click on a corner of a map, where anti scout groups are typically placed, and where to hide scouts to wait for opportunities to sneak inside the enemy bases. 

If you don’t have all the important areas of the map scouted in the first 2-3 minutes of the game you are doing something very wrong. You can’t always get inside the enemy base hat quick if they’re skilled at anti scouting. But all surrounding area, all corners of the map, all expand patches, all hiding spots should all be open within the first few minutes of the game and it’s easily achieveable without much effort with use of Q rallypoints and light infantry.

I find this very interesting, particularly hiding spots for scouts. It never crossed my mind, but it makes perfect sense. Also is there a 'best pathing' for maps such as Terrace & FF? It's hard to direct your troops accurately to certain spots in the map before you've firstly revealed terrain. Usually when scouting I send infantry to all 4 corners, while I Q rally the rest of my infantry to 'random' spots on the map and scout with them from there on.Most of the time ive scouted the entire map in the first few minutes, but I'm wondering if there are any quicker methods?

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it's fair, it's basically just a cheap way to attempt to win the game. I honestly wouldn't recommend doing it if you're trying to actually learn the game, as it robs you of any opportunity to utilize other skills necessary to progress. I never 1 ref unless i actually don't want to play the person, aka if im vs'ing someone new and i know it will end it very quickly.

Edited by c0rpsmakr
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On 11/7/2018 at 11:08 AM, c0rpsmakr said:

it's fair, it's basically just a cheap way to attempt to win the game. I honestly wouldn't recommend doing it if you're trying to actually learn the game, as it robs you of any opportunity to utilize other skills necessary to progress. I never 1 ref unless i actually don't want to play the person, aka if im vs'ing someone new and i know it will end it very quickly.

Apart from practicing it to finish games quickly I practice it to improve attack and building speed. What 'necessary skills' are you refering to? 

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funny there is even a discussion.  That;s what makes TS so much fun, and if you can beat em doing it , wonderful.

It is not 'cheap'   it is brilliant!  mix it up and beat 'em  

some play no engr as a rule then you should respect the rule.

 

you can use 'q' with multiple clicks to direct your units path.

Edited by amokk
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On 11/9/2018 at 7:57 AM, SaintZ said:

Apart from practicing it to finish games quickly I practice it to improve attack and building speed. What 'necessary skills' are you refering to? 

The only necessary skills to utilize in short games are micro, build speed, and scouting/antiscouting. Doing a 1 ref is, regardless of what the newer players commenting here will say, a gimmicky way to win or hope to win by throwing something unexpected at your opponent. If your opponent scouts you or accurately anticipates what you're doing, your econ will be behind and they'll easily  defend it, then you're playing on the backfoot and vulnerable to them being able to steamroll you with their econ advantage now. Hoping your opponent doesn't expect a 1 ref, relies entirely on trickery, as opposed to actually knowing how to manage your economy, macro, defend/attack multiple areas at once, expand, control the tib fields, along with other strategies that can only be tested in games longer than 5 minutes that teach you to outplay people. 

 

And no, "no engs or build out" are not legitimate rules that "should be respected", they are imaginary rules to inhibit players from playing with every game option possible because the host isn't able to defend vs whatever tactic they're trying to forbid.

Edited by c0rpsmakr
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On 11/14/2018 at 7:02 PM, c0rpsmakr said:

 Doing a 1 ref is, regardless of what the newer players commenting here will say, a gimmicky way to win or hope to win by throwing something unexpected at your opponent.

and in the same post..

 imaginary rules  to inhibit players from playing with every game option possible 

look who's trying to inhibit .......

and i'm not new.

Edited by amokk

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This will be my last time responding to you, whoever you are. Don't cherry pick statements out of my comments and twist them, as I clearly stated that 1 reffing is fair, it is just entirely gimmicky and for those wanting to actually improve, it won't allow someone to grow if they only utilize the skills that are necessary in very short games. And from your posts, it's clear that you aren't someone who has been playing to the point where they have a good understanding of how everything works.

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Thank you C0rpsmakr, I see what you mean now I got stomped by good players a couple of games. I was completely defenseless against inf rushes, and I wasnt able to keep up with my opponents economy. It can be good like you said as a gimmick against people who are unprepared for it. But it cant be used every game. 

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corps,  It is just that  cheap, tricky, and gimmicky, have a negative connotation, which rubs a stink on it, and inhibits players from playing with every game option possible  even if you say it's ok at some other  point in the comment. Here's a nickel, go to school.

SaintZ,  yep If it doesn't work you in a bad spot, but it still effective in the long haul. vary the percentage of games you do it in, and it will keep em guessing.

it's called variable-ratio schedule of  reinforcement  ( @corpsmaker (since I don't have a good understanding of how things work I had to explain it to myself ;) )  see there's more to it than micro, build speed, and scouting/anti-scouting...lol)

it can work great! Fortune favors the brave!

like when someone plays  ???  instead of nod or gdi,  you not sure how they going to come at you, that is invaluable. 

I both love it and hate it when someone mixes it up against me.

Edited by amokk

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This post is quite dated, but I'll chime in.

There are quite alot of factors that go into the strategy of 1 ref VS 2. Me personally, I never saw the benefit to less than 2 refineries in Tib Sun.

In Red Alert 2, it's different because the miners dump their ore immediately, and they waste no time getting out of the refinery. In that sense, it's reasonable to have 2 ore refineries, one near one ore field, and one near the other, since all Miners are in and out so fast, but you have infinite storage, so the second ore refinery is more for the convenience of your miners than anything else.

Tiberian Sun has completely different mechanics. Not only do you have finite resources you can hold, but harvesters take forever compared to RA2 to dump Tiberium into the refinery. You need 2 Refs close by so harvesters can effectively line up, and keep a stable flow of credits in, while having a fair pool of credits to work with, so you're not working with minimal credits. If you have only 1 refinery, assuming you have about 3 Harvesters going, Harvesters will be waiting in line more than dumping or harvesting Tiberium, and that's not an effective use of their time, and you'll only have a pool of about 3k credits to work with, as opposed to 5-6k, and if you focus on only harvesting Blue Tiberium, that's double the value. Furthermore, if you don't have sufficient Tiberium storage via refineries and silos, your Harvesters will dump Tiberium, but you won't receive any of it. It's dumb, I know, and they fixed this in C&C 3, but all the more reason to build one more Refinery.

The real question is, when do you build that second refinery? Personally, I build my second right after my War Factory, training Infantry to defend as necessary while my War Factory pumps out a few Harvesters. Once I have 4-5 Harvesters and 2 Refs, my economy is set. I just pump out what units I need at that point. Or, if you think you need units, or you want to win with a rush, then 1 Refinery is unfortunately the best bet until later when you hear EVA/CABAL say "InSuFfIcIeNt FuNdS", but if that rush fails, neither do you have the resources, nor the units to continue fighting, and your opponent not only has a few forces left standing, but a VERY stable economy compared to you.

Some of it is situational, but some of it IS skill-based complete with the knowledge of how this game works, and what's expected in a standard game. The 1 Ref strat doesn't shock me as much because at some point I'm sure EVERYONE (including myself) thought one refinery was all we needed in our RTS C&C careers, but it does mean they're either trying something wacky, or not as experienced as some of the old-school Veterans of this game.

I hope that if none of the above posts answered your question (some of them were good), then this does.

Edited by KILAH4716

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Good tactic is to 2 ref them first game, then in rematch 1 ref them.  This really throws them off.  Then in the next rematch just do ref,war,ref eco and watch them 1 ref rpg/sams thinking you going to 1 ref dis them again.  ❤️

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i consider a three refinery build the safest. a 1 ref build if you wanna see if you can kill them. a engi rush can be hard if they build a rpg or have disc throwers ready to kill a engi when it pops out. then youre at a slight disadvantage. same if they see you sending a 1 ref disruptor or mammoth. if they spend a lot of time defending against your early rush then it usually slows you both down about the same. i think a three refinery build is the safest build. you get a strong early economy. you can sell refineries for infantry to infantry rush at the start and then tech up. a distracting infantry rush combo with a disruptor rush can be very deadly. usually  you can do a three ref infantry rush building and selling refs and spamming men and by the time your men get to enemy base you could have a disruptor on carryall on its way. 

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there is no "correct" way to play ts. as long as you aren't cheating, and you successfully win the game which is the point of the game....then who cares how you accomplish it.

 

there are players out there that want to build the biggest bases, and have the most units, instead of just ko'ing their opponent by any means possible which is the actual point of the game....

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7 hours ago, TRZ said:

there is no "correct" way to play ts. as long as you aren't cheating, and you successfully win the game which is the point of the game....then who cares how you accomplish it.

 

there are players out there that want to build the biggest bases, and have the most units, instead of just ko'ing their opponent by any means possible which is the actual point of the game....

Well said.

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It comes down to philosophy. If you are playing to win you should obviously use every (legal) tool available. If you are playing to get better 1refing probably doesnt have the biggest value.

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If your gonna 1 ref, make sure you use that coconut oil on em real good 😆

I don't think 1 ref attacks are as much fun as playing a game that involves anything more then a strict 1 ref with either any combo of 1-3 harvs.

In saying that, 1 refs can be extremely powerful when used right by the player attempting to do so if they have the knowledge and skill to pull it off.
You can completely wipe a player's main buildings early game if they are not expecting it and don't keep any means of defense... usually this is a lower skilled player or less commonly a good player that has been caught off guard.

You will find the salt usually comes from the player that does not have the level of awareness nor the skills required to defend such attacks.

Personally though, I don't like 1 ref early game attacks and I don't "enjoy" doing it myself either... I will only use it in team games where the other team has a stronger line up of players and it may or may not give my team an advantage or better chance of wining.

I also think that using a 1 ref engineer attack as GDI or Nod in an APC to capture an enemy player's Construction Yard is completely Bad Manner!! but that is just my opinion...

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rofl we will have the TS game play code of ethics and etiquette next you see... you know thats my favourite sky! :)

so players who like to build gon be salty if u do it to them... others are like yeh its the game so get good and stop it

 

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What's the etiquette on disruptor bombs and harv bombs these days? 🙃

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