IntoTheRain

I can't recall any units that I didn't run at least a few number checks on, especially for common interactions. Basically, the bigger the change, the harder I ran the numbers. The plan was to run multiple patches after this one anyway. Its basically impossible not to overbuff or overnerf some aspect of the game when you make that many changes at once. Additionally, certain units have a strong chance of being suspect if other interactions start evening out. For example, guided Artillery would likely get a bit of a rework if Tick Tank / Rocket Soldier proved capable of standing up to Titans.

Bikes got a major buff in DPS to compensate for that HP decrease. The change in their Attack Speed also strongly encourages players to use hit and run tactics and to stay away from pitched battles.

I added tabs for the vanilla units as well. I think there are better versions of it out there already, but if it makes it easier to compare then thats fine. I agree that DPS isn't the most accurate metric, but it wasn't really meant to be. I was mostly trying to make sure the units damage was within the expected range for its cost and abilities. I did do shots to kill as well on all the modified units as well, but it was mostly done on scratch sheets and not saved. The Bike, for example, has 80 HP and Wood armor, giving it the lowest HP to cost in the game. As far as actual interactions go though, it kills a Harvester in 12 shots, meaning groups of 3, 4, or 6 can make rapid darts in and out of Tib Fields and start picking off Harvesters. Conversely, it dies in 2 hits to a Titan or MLRS, 4 to a Tick Tank or Rocket Trooper, 2 shots from other Bikes, and 14 shots from Rifles. (Ideally the Orca would have 2 shotted one as well, but as I never really got the Orca Stats where I wanted them we will never know)

I've pretty much accepted that no one who stuck with the game this long is interested in making any real changes to core gameplay. There are some areas I think could still be improved upon, (mobile AA, infantry, eco harass) but at the end of the day, small numbers of powerful late game units are going to continue to be the dominant strat. Here are the revised stats I've been working on for a TS patch. I no longer have plans to try and implement these on maps for testing, so I won't bore anyone with the details, but I will leave them up on the off chance someone else will find inspiration in them and carry on. There is a modernized damage type table mostly aimed at rocket units, as well as reworks to most of the weaker units and defenses. The only unfinished changes for initial testing were the Orca and the Harpy, both of which have serious engine limitations that makes them very difficult to make useful without a total unit rewrite. I haven't touched any of the strong units, but I suspect that all of the above changes would be of limited value without at least a few of them getting nerfed somewhere.

Alright I've been playing TS fairly consistently for a few weeks now, and I've basically come to the conclusion that none of the weaker units can be saved without major reworks to the way the game plays. In a game where you have access to late game tech in the first 3 minutes AND that tech is vastly superior to the early and mid game stuff, there really isn't a way to make the early and mid stuff viable unless you dramatically drop the power of the late game units, which I'm sure the existing TS community would balk at. I've talked with several modders, and there are enough limitations on the engine that I don't think there really is a way to delay access to the late game tech. Other engine limitations mean things like aircraft performance varies dramatically depending on what style of attack the aircraft uses. (curly shuffle vs bombing run) There are some changes I still think would help the game out a lot, but at the end of the day its still always going to be about fast teching to the best units.

I have a few questions about basic TS modding that I was hoping someone here could help with. 1) Is it possible to enforce hard tech requirements for units? IE continually check to see if you have the Radar you need for that MLRS? Or the Tech Center you need for that Stealth Tank? 2) Is it possible to build new units with units already starting inside? For example, if I wanted the APC to spawn with 5 rifles inside it? 3) Is there a control that you can set to prevent a unit from being hijackable? Maybe I just don't see it in the rules.ini, but I'm assuming something like that has to be there. 4) Has anyone gotten a multipad airfield to work like in the RA2 and later games? Also, is it possible to enforce a 1 aircraft per helipad limit like with RA2 and beyond? I know Aircraft were limited to 1 an airfield in RA1, so I'm assuming the logic is still there somewhere, I just don't know where to look. 5) Is there a good way to get a handle on how much damage the Devil's Tongue / GS / MMII / Disrupter do? The after damage affect seems really convoluted. I believe the railguns are 150/200 for the GS/MM2 respectively, but the other two are harder to get a fix on.

I'm really not. But you are right, I don't enjoy the game in its current incarnation. Its Bombers and Carryalls and nothing else, which makes it among the worst CnCs for multiplayer. There is potential there to turn it into something playable, but the 10 or so of you who actually enjoy endless carryall dancing are basically insisting on keeping the game unplayable. Which leaves anyone new coming along with an uphill battle to try and make the game into something decent. (you know, where more than 6 or so units from 1 faction are actually useful) Now if you will move along, some of us are trying to make something out of this pile.

Not a fair statement. Game 1 was won off the back off Bombers and EMP. Game 2 I got smashed yeah. The pathing AI is pretty old, and the APC/Engie wasn't moving like I expected it to. Anyway I plan on continuing pushing for balance changes to hopefully turn the game into something decent. After a couple of days of playing I remember why I keep walking away. Things I want to add to my current changelist: 1) The map balance is a joke by modern standards. Every spawn point plays completely differently with Tib spawned different distances apart. The game would really benefit from a rotating map pool for ladder as well as new maps being cycled in to keep the game fresh. 2) Nod is bad. Like really bad. The only place anyone is playing them is on the infinite Tib maps with super defenseable locations. They definitely need more power in the early game, and their lategame needs to be broadened beyond CC/Banshees. Additionally, Stealth needs to be less frustrating to fight against. 3) EMP Cannon makes ground armies obsolete. Every game turns into Bombers + Carryalls because actually attacking with a ground army is suicide. I'd like to see a rework toward making it more of an anti Disrupter/MMII/CC weapon. Give it a much faster projectile speed but dramatically reduce its AOE. Buff Tick Tanks and Rockets to give NOD a more viable ground army to face off against Titans with. 4) The Laser/Vulcan are lousy. Both need reworks. The Vulcan is just bad, while the laser just feels misdesigned. With GDI's advantage in infantry fights, and deployed Tick Tanks giving them a decent turret, the Laser would make more sense with a heavier anti infantry focus.

IntoTheRain

I should be on for the next hour to an hour and a half. I have to go out after that. We can set a time sometime during the week if that doesn't work.

There isn't that much to know, the units in TS aren't that complex. There are 3-4 units that have a few tricks, but thats about it. I played TibSun plenty. I come back to a random CnC game every once in a while to take a break from SC2. Just because I walked away from the game years ago doesn't mean I've forgotten how to play. Like you said, the game hasn't changed at all. 90% of games are GDI Mirrors. Infantry become extremely suspect after the first 3 minutes. Harvester hunting isn't viable at all. Frontal assaults aren't cost effective past the mid game. The game is mostly about Moving Carryalls around with Disrupters/MMII or Bombers with some Titans mixed in. (or CC/Banshees if you lived that long with Nod) Its bland and repetitive. There is a reason why TibSun is struggling for players compared to either of the first Red Alert titles. (which are themselves bland and repetitive, but less so than TS) The veterans you speak of aren't opposed to changes because they think it will make the game worse. They are opposed to changes because they have gotten comfortable with the game in its current state. Anyone sitting here telling me that there aren't multiple bad units in TS is lying and we both know it. (and no, there don't have to be useless units and structures. Almost every modern RTS manages to make its units good.) I understand the units fine. I played on and off for several years. But I'll tell you what. Since you are so confident that all the units are fine as is, why don't we setup some 1v1s where you show me the power of mass Wolverines. Or mass Stealth Tanks. Or mass Cyborgs. Or any of the units listed. You can show me all of these amazing 'nuances' that no one else seems to know about.

And that attitude is why its impossible to fix problems with the game. There are very, VERY clearly weak units in TS.

On paper both infantry and vehicles have already been able to do everything since RA1. In practice Infantry have lagged far behind vehicles for the majority of the CnC franchise. The real question has always been whats the point of having infantry if Warfactory units can do everything after the 2 minute mark?

The problem with Riflemen in every CnC game is that they tend to be very narrow. They are only strong against infantry, with no other utility to speak of unless the game lets Rifle damage to a high percentage to structures. (RA2 and RA3) Furthermore, Rifles usually aren't even the best anti infantry unit in each faction, further reducing their usefulness down to mere scouts. RA3 is the only game where Rifles are the strongest anti-infantry unit, and it really changes the way the game plays. In TibSun, Rifles fall off pretty quick after the initial rush, and the main reason you see them at all after the first 2 minutes is from building selling. Its really rare to see someone continue building them as the game goes on. (rightfully so, tech is king in TibSun) That being said, I don't see how you make them more useful after the early game without dramatically altering the unit. I would be interested in looking at the early interactions however. Rifle fights are basically tickle fights, requiring 16 shots to kill each other even before they go prone.

Yes, the buggy will need a turret added as well. Not sure what to do with the Tick Tank. The traditional light tank in 1 and 3 has relied on numbers, speed, and earlier pressure to keep the numbers low in order to compete with the GDI offering. The Tick Tank is the only one thats trying to compete against the Titan straight up. I'd like to see Nod try and answer Titans with a mix of Tick Tanks and Rockets or Rockets and Artillery, but that would be another round of changes to play with. The transform ability makes it fairly challenging to balance as well. The MLRS change is possible, I think it still does enough damage against Bikes to make them a good answer against them, but GDI is losing one of its only anti harv weapons if you go down that route. Additionally, while its got the same name as the TibDawn version, it plays very differently. Personally I feel like the Jugg is far more of a spiritual successor to the TD MLRS at this point, and the TS MLRS should just try and be its own unit. I'm also not sure I would want to buff the Orca further without testing it a bit first. Its hard to gauge its power level without playing with it, and its already getting a fair number of buffs. The Devils Tongue I just don't know what to do with. Its damage isn't particularly impressive, especially for its tech requirements, but underground is a ridiculous mechanic. I honestly don't think it would be OP if it only required a Radar, especially with the suggested armor type change, but again at this point actual testing would need to be done to know for sure.