IntoTheRain

I can't recall any units that I didn't run at least a few number checks on, especially for common interactions. Basically, the bigger the change, the harder I ran the numbers. The plan was to run multiple patches after this one anyway. Its basically impossible not to overbuff or overnerf some aspect of the game when you make that many changes at once. Additionally, certain units have a strong chance of being suspect if other interactions start evening out. For example, guided Artillery would likely get a bit of a rework if Tick Tank / Rocket Soldier proved capable of standing up to Titans.

Bikes got a major buff in DPS to compensate for that HP decrease. The change in their Attack Speed also strongly encourages players to use hit and run tactics and to stay away from pitched battles.

I added tabs for the vanilla units as well. I think there are better versions of it out there already, but if it makes it easier to compare then thats fine. I agree that DPS isn't the most accurate metric, but it wasn't really meant to be. I was mostly trying to make sure the units damage was within the expected range for its cost and abilities. I did do shots to kill as well on all the modified units as well, but it was mostly done on scratch sheets and not saved. The Bike, for example, has 80 HP and Wood armor, giving it the lowest HP to cost in the game. As far as actual interactions go though, it kills a Harvester in 12 shots, meaning groups of 3, 4, or 6 can make rapid darts in and out of Tib Fields and start picking off Harvesters. Conversely, it dies in 2 hits to a Titan or MLRS, 4 to a Tick Tank or Rocket Trooper, 2 shots from other Bikes, and 14 shots from Rifles. (Ideally the Orca would have 2 shotted one as well, but as I never really got the Orca Stats where I wanted them we will never know)

I've pretty much accepted that no one who stuck with the game this long is interested in making any real changes to core gameplay. There are some areas I think could still be improved upon, (mobile AA, infantry, eco harass) but at the end of the day, small numbers of powerful late game units are going to continue to be the dominant strat. Here are the revised stats I've been working on for a TS patch. I no longer have plans to try and implement these on maps for testing, so I won't bore anyone with the details, but I will leave them up on the off chance someone else will find inspiration in them and carry on. There is a modernized damage type table mostly aimed at rocket units, as well as reworks to most of the weaker units and defenses. The only unfinished changes for initial testing were the Orca and the Harpy, both of which have serious engine limitations that makes them very difficult to make useful without a total unit rewrite. I haven't touched any of the strong units, but I suspect that all of the above changes would be of limited value without at least a few of them getting nerfed somewhere.

Alright I've been playing TS fairly consistently for a few weeks now, and I've basically come to the conclusion that none of the weaker units can be saved without major reworks to the way the game plays. In a game where you have access to late game tech in the first 3 minutes AND that tech is vastly superior to the early and mid game stuff, there really isn't a way to make the early and mid stuff viable unless you dramatically drop the power of the late game units, which I'm sure the existing TS community would balk at. I've talked with several modders, and there are enough limitations on the engine that I don't think there really is a way to delay access to the late game tech. Other engine limitations mean things like aircraft performance varies dramatically depending on what style of attack the aircraft uses. (curly shuffle vs bombing run) There are some changes I still think would help the game out a lot, but at the end of the day its still always going to be about fast teching to the best units.

I have a few questions about basic TS modding that I was hoping someone here could help with. 1) Is it possible to enforce hard tech requirements for units? IE continually check to see if you have the Radar you need for that MLRS? Or the Tech Center you need for that Stealth Tank? 2) Is it possible to build new units with units already starting inside? For example, if I wanted the APC to spawn with 5 rifles inside it? 3) Is there a control that you can set to prevent a unit from being hijackable? Maybe I just don't see it in the rules.ini, but I'm assuming something like that has to be there. 4) Has anyone gotten a multipad airfield to work like in the RA2 and later games? Also, is it possible to enforce a 1 aircraft per helipad limit like with RA2 and beyond? I know Aircraft were limited to 1 an airfield in RA1, so I'm assuming the logic is still there somewhere, I just don't know where to look. 5) Is there a good way to get a handle on how much damage the Devil's Tongue / GS / MMII / Disrupter do? The after damage affect seems really convoluted. I believe the railguns are 150/200 for the GS/MM2 respectively, but the other two are harder to get a fix on.

I'm really not. But you are right, I don't enjoy the game in its current incarnation. Its Bombers and Carryalls and nothing else, which makes it among the worst CnCs for multiplayer. There is potential there to turn it into something playable, but the 10 or so of you who actually enjoy endless carryall dancing are basically insisting on keeping the game unplayable. Which leaves anyone new coming along with an uphill battle to try and make the game into something decent. (you know, where more than 6 or so units from 1 faction are actually useful) Now if you will move along, some of us are trying to make something out of this pile.

Not a fair statement. Game 1 was won off the back off Bombers and EMP. Game 2 I got smashed yeah. The pathing AI is pretty old, and the APC/Engie wasn't moving like I expected it to. Anyway I plan on continuing pushing for balance changes to hopefully turn the game into something decent. After a couple of days of playing I remember why I keep walking away. Things I want to add to my current changelist: 1) The map balance is a joke by modern standards. Every spawn point plays completely differently with Tib spawned different distances apart. The game would really benefit from a rotating map pool for ladder as well as new maps being cycled in to keep the game fresh. 2) Nod is bad. Like really bad. The only place anyone is playing them is on the infinite Tib maps with super defenseable locations. They definitely need more power in the early game, and their lategame needs to be broadened beyond CC/Banshees. Additionally, Stealth needs to be less frustrating to fight against. 3) EMP Cannon makes ground armies obsolete. Every game turns into Bombers + Carryalls because actually attacking with a ground army is suicide. I'd like to see a rework toward making it more of an anti Disrupter/MMII/CC weapon. Give it a much faster projectile speed but dramatically reduce its AOE. Buff Tick Tanks and Rockets to give NOD a more viable ground army to face off against Titans with. 4) The Laser/Vulcan are lousy. Both need reworks. The Vulcan is just bad, while the laser just feels misdesigned. With GDI's advantage in infantry fights, and deployed Tick Tanks giving them a decent turret, the Laser would make more sense with a heavier anti infantry focus.

IntoTheRain

I should be on for the next hour to an hour and a half. I have to go out after that. We can set a time sometime during the week if that doesn't work.

There isn't that much to know, the units in TS aren't that complex. There are 3-4 units that have a few tricks, but thats about it. I played TibSun plenty. I come back to a random CnC game every once in a while to take a break from SC2. Just because I walked away from the game years ago doesn't mean I've forgotten how to play. Like you said, the game hasn't changed at all. 90% of games are GDI Mirrors. Infantry become extremely suspect after the first 3 minutes. Harvester hunting isn't viable at all. Frontal assaults aren't cost effective past the mid game. The game is mostly about Moving Carryalls around with Disrupters/MMII or Bombers with some Titans mixed in. (or CC/Banshees if you lived that long with Nod) Its bland and repetitive. There is a reason why TibSun is struggling for players compared to either of the first Red Alert titles. (which are themselves bland and repetitive, but less so than TS) The veterans you speak of aren't opposed to changes because they think it will make the game worse. They are opposed to changes because they have gotten comfortable with the game in its current state. Anyone sitting here telling me that there aren't multiple bad units in TS is lying and we both know it. (and no, there don't have to be useless units and structures. Almost every modern RTS manages to make its units good.) I understand the units fine. I played on and off for several years. But I'll tell you what. Since you are so confident that all the units are fine as is, why don't we setup some 1v1s where you show me the power of mass Wolverines. Or mass Stealth Tanks. Or mass Cyborgs. Or any of the units listed. You can show me all of these amazing 'nuances' that no one else seems to know about.

And that attitude is why its impossible to fix problems with the game. There are very, VERY clearly weak units in TS.

On paper both infantry and vehicles have already been able to do everything since RA1. In practice Infantry have lagged far behind vehicles for the majority of the CnC franchise. The real question has always been whats the point of having infantry if Warfactory units can do everything after the 2 minute mark?

The problem with Riflemen in every CnC game is that they tend to be very narrow. They are only strong against infantry, with no other utility to speak of unless the game lets Rifle damage to a high percentage to structures. (RA2 and RA3) Furthermore, Rifles usually aren't even the best anti infantry unit in each faction, further reducing their usefulness down to mere scouts. RA3 is the only game where Rifles are the strongest anti-infantry unit, and it really changes the way the game plays. In TibSun, Rifles fall off pretty quick after the initial rush, and the main reason you see them at all after the first 2 minutes is from building selling. Its really rare to see someone continue building them as the game goes on. (rightfully so, tech is king in TibSun) That being said, I don't see how you make them more useful after the early game without dramatically altering the unit. I would be interested in looking at the early interactions however. Rifle fights are basically tickle fights, requiring 16 shots to kill each other even before they go prone.

Yes, the buggy will need a turret added as well. Not sure what to do with the Tick Tank. The traditional light tank in 1 and 3 has relied on numbers, speed, and earlier pressure to keep the numbers low in order to compete with the GDI offering. The Tick Tank is the only one thats trying to compete against the Titan straight up. I'd like to see Nod try and answer Titans with a mix of Tick Tanks and Rockets or Rockets and Artillery, but that would be another round of changes to play with. The transform ability makes it fairly challenging to balance as well. The MLRS change is possible, I think it still does enough damage against Bikes to make them a good answer against them, but GDI is losing one of its only anti harv weapons if you go down that route. Additionally, while its got the same name as the TibDawn version, it plays very differently. Personally I feel like the Jugg is far more of a spiritual successor to the TD MLRS at this point, and the TS MLRS should just try and be its own unit. I'm also not sure I would want to buff the Orca further without testing it a bit first. Its hard to gauge its power level without playing with it, and its already getting a fair number of buffs. The Devils Tongue I just don't know what to do with. Its damage isn't particularly impressive, especially for its tech requirements, but underground is a ridiculous mechanic. I honestly don't think it would be OP if it only required a Radar, especially with the suggested armor type change, but again at this point actual testing would need to be done to know for sure.

@Messiah Whoops, my bad on the Devil's Tongue. I was originally going to propose it get its tech requirements knocked down to a Radar Dome but I dropped it from my suggested changelist. I think its a good change, but I tech requirement changes are a harder sell. Anyway for the Buggy. I don't mind it being used to small groups of infantry, I just think Nod has lots of anti infantry units that all need to fit and I don't want it to avoid feeling like a Nod Wolverine, especially with Cyborgs also in the faction. You are right though that the gun damage is probably inadequate for AA work. There was never a need to make an Air armor type when the game was released since all of the AA damage was rocket based. This could be fixed by simply creating an air armor type which is identical to existing light armor except against Buggy gun damage. Currently, light units take 40% damage from Buggy weapons, increasing this to 75% would bring it in line with Rocket damage from other sources. For comparison: - SAM Sites 6 shot Orcas and 7 shot Harpies. - Rocket Troopers 10 shot Orcas and 13 shot Harpies - At 45 gun damage with a 0.75 scalar, a Buggy would kill a Orca in 6 shots and a Harpy in 7. However, its far lower rate of fire would still give it far higher time to kill than a SAM. That might actually be a little better than it needs to be, and the correct amount might be something closer to 8 shots for an Orca and 9-10 for a Harpy given its price. As far as the range, that was part of the reason I originally pushed the unit to 6 range. Additionally, I was hoping to move the unit more toward a kiting role, letting it shoot and scoot. Another possibility is to let it Q move. With its phenomenal speed, Buggies could actually chase after many of the aircraft and hunt them down, a capability that doesn't really exist in the current game. It would also improve its infantry hunting ability while keeping it separate from the Wolverine. With that in mind, here are my revised changes for the Buggy: Raider Buggy: * Q Move enabled for the Buggy * Buggy weapon can now shoot air * Damage increased from 40 to 45 * Buggy Range increased from 4 to 6 * Scalar vs aircraft changed from .40 to .75 Alright so lets walk through these changes. Q Move makes the unit a good infantry hunter while keeping its playstyle distinct from the Wolverine. It also makes it better at chasing down enemy aircraft, a capability that may be necessary against the improved light air, and is a dangerous addition against heavy air. The range increase makes the unit more practical against aircraft and improves the units effectiveness at kiting Infantry. The damage and scalar increases allow the unit to hit some important breakpoints for shots to kill, and while impressive on paper, the units low ROF limits how fast the Buggy can swat opposing air out of the sky. The above changes would probably mean I would open with a Buggy in most games. Q move is really strong when scouting with a Buggy, since I can kill enemy infantry as I run past them. It also makes the unit very good at denying scouting, since most scout/anti scout fights are running battles. I'd also want them to use in support of Attack Bikes. The proposed Bike changes make them very dangerous, and the two primary counters to them are going to be either Infantry or Orcas, which Buggies should be fairly good against. Finally, Q move means that they are almost fast enough to pace Orca Bombers and (modified) Harpies, meaning well positioned Buggies can literally chase these aircraft for a decent ways before they can escape, especially if the Buggies start in front of them. I don't really want to push the unit any harder than that against infantry for the time being. My proposed changelist has a lot of buffs to Nod T0 already, especially among the faster units. I think GDI needs to maintain an edge in the brute force department to counteract their slower units. That advantage would probably come from infantry, which Nod can counter with Tech. I'd probably push that Devil's Tongue change to make it T1 again and see what happens. GDI can conversely counter Nod's mobility with their tech, using the and improved Jump Trooper, MLRS, and Orca. As for your MLRS question, I'm not sure its really in the units best interest. I currently see the unit as GDI's answer to the Attack Bike, being fast enough to counter them a bit as well as doing enough damage to threaten Harvesters. Moving it to HE gives it a small damage nerf vs Bikes (who use the wood armor type for some reason) and a major damage nerf vs Harvesters. I guess I don't really see what the goal of the change is? What I would considerthough , if the Orca pans out, is moving Bombers to HE, making them weaker vs vehicles and encourage more mixing of the aircraft.

@X3M I'm not a good candidate to do a mod. Any free time I have for games at this point tends to go to Starcraft, with small spurts into various CnC games whenever I get bored of that. I'm probably not going to stick around long enough to make anything worthwhile. (and definitely not long enough to support it) I'd also end up making so many changes that, while the game would have all the same units, it wouldn't really be TibSun as people know it anymore. I can think of at least 10 far more major changes that I would probably implement if I was going to mod it. The final result would probably look similar to the demo OpenRA version on youtube, but thats a tough sell to a community thats been playing the same basic game for 20 years. That being said, I do think the game could use a balance patch to open the game up some more, but I find most of the discussion about it very lazy. I'm trying to get people to think more about concrete numbers and reworking of unit designs to make them more viable. The game is definitely playable in its current state, but most of the gameplay tends to revolve around high powered building killers through either CC/Disrupters or Air Power. Actual army combat takes a backseat, and eco harass is nearly nonexistent. The game would benefit from opening up both.

3 Factions: The standard for RTS. Two factions is a bit skimpy, while every CnC game with subfactions has been a balance nightmare. CnC3/RA3 UI: By far the best UI Design. Generals and Later Fog of War System: Brought the game into the modern RTS era. No more one and done scouting. RA3 Soviet Build System: Fixes almost all the problems present with the MCV build model. No more pop up defenses. MCV/Turret pushing becomes much harder to do. Scouting is more practical since you can see whats building. CnC3 Health MCVs: Lets stay away from the Monster Truck MCVs in RA3. MCV moves should be viable, but risky. The CnC3 version is really good at this, being viable to move around, but vulnerable while doing so. Kane's Wrath Eco Model: By far my favorite Eco model in a CnC game. Most of the CnC offerings either have no buildup time on bases (RA3, Generals) or have harvesters with more health than Mammoths. (RA2 and below) The KW version requires you to make choices about whether to spend your starting cash on building an eco or trying to rush and crush theirs. Harvesters built from Refineries: Keeps the game from being too Warfactory centric. Building Harvesters from Refineries allows openers like Dual Barracks to be viable. Upgrades: Only 2 CnC games have used upgrades, Generals and CnC3. Only CnC3 did them well. They need to be part of the game. They are an important way to gate certain units or keep early game units relevant as the game goes on. Support Powers: The one clicks need to be heavily controlled. While support abilities can add a layer of complexity and control to the game, watching your army get clicked off the screen isn't fun or engaging. Superweapons excluded. Unique Superweapons: Use Generals as the baseline here. All 3 Superweapons are good in their own way without being carbon copies of one another. If they can diversify the Scud from the Nuke, all the better. The Topol in Rise of the Reds is a good example of a 3rd Superweapon design that fits themantically with GLA. Generals Style Commandos: CnC Generals had by far the best commandos. They were a powerful tool you wanted as soon as they became available. Being the only Stealthed commando is a big reason for their improved viability, but it also comes down to the design of the Commandos themselves. Whether by design or accident, the Generals commandos excel at things their faction traditionally does not. Lotus is a backline harasser in a brute force faction, Kell is a frontline hitter in a harass faction, and Burton is a generalist in a faction full of Specialists. Being good at things the faction isn't good at gave the player a new dynamic to work with without sacrificing the factions design. A Rotating Map Pool: Every CnC that has been left to its own devices has devolved into a 1 map game. New maps help keep the game fresh and prevent people from becoming too complacent in the meta. Things I DON'T want to see: * Husks: discourage attacking since any failed attack is basically GG after they get recovered. * Secondary Eco: Encourages turtling. Put enough bases on the map and force players to be out and about. * Epics: become way too much of a focal point for the game and push out T3 Tanks. * Fireports: too much concentrated DPS. Push out everything else. * Underground: stealth is good enough without adding (near) invulnerability. * Mind Control: In every game I've played that had this ability, it either ended up being completely broken or completely useless. The mechanic has too much potential power to ever be truly balanced. * Naval: none of the RA games have managed to integrate it well into the game. Its always a tertiary build path. RA3 tried hard to make it work with naval expansions and units that moved on both land and sea, but even there it doesn't really work out.

I just want to see more concrete numbers and reasoning when discussing updates. When people say things like 'buff its damage 10% to make it useful' that doesn't tell you anything about what interactions are affected or if its even possible with the numbers used. @Messiah I agree, the buggy might need more buffs. Not sure I would want the Bike to take over the role of AA unit though. The bike should actually be a very dangerous unit with whats proposed, and unlike GDI which only has the Wolverine, Nod has a ton of anti infantry options in the WF that the Buggy would have to compete with. It would be very hard for the Buggy to carve out a niche there without buffing it to the point it crowds something else out. I personally prefer to push it in its current direction, as a scout, anti air unit, and unit thats good at engaging and eliminating small packs of scouting troops. This gives it a clear role that Nods other anti infantry units can't fill, and the anti air aspect will help keep it relevant into the mid/late game. But yes, it could probably use more in the way of buffs. Pushing its damage all the way up to 60-65 or so, for example, would allow it to 2 shot light infantry. Thats nearly a 50% buff to its firepower though, and as bad as the buggy is, it probably would need a nerf to compensate for that big an increase. A RoF buff is also possible, but the higher burst damage is usually preferable against aircraft.

Is there a serious discussion about opening up some of the more useless units? I see a lot of 'all units are useful' silliness in this thread. There is a legitimate argument that nearly half the units in the game need some sort of help. The standout units in the game: - Titans - Disrupters - Mammoth MkII - Bombers - Carryall - Cyborg Commando - Artillery - Underground APC - Banshee Basically everything else is either barely ok, fringe, or just never sees the light of day. They played it way too safe with the harvester hunters, there are too many anti infantry units that are all garbage, and the early aircraft are thoroughly unimpressive. Most of the defenses lack the range, or damage to be useful. (and the component system is pointless) My Ideas: There are a few areas of the game I would like to see open up more. Right now, the game focuses primarily on either base harass from UAPCs or Carryalls, Air campaigns with Bombers/Banshees, or frontal attacks as a last resort. (and some infantry rushes mixed in for good measure) I'd like to see harvester harass become a more viable way to attack the game, as well as trying to straight overpowering your opponent become more viable. (especially for Nod) Medics: * Cost reduced from $600, 7s to $450, 5s * Heal cast range increased by 1 cell The unit is a good idea, but its just too expensive and its heal range isn't long enough to justify investing in them over just having more infantry. I propose the cost be reduced from $600, 7s to $450, 5s. Additionally, I propose its heal range be increased by 1 cell. Jump Infantry: * Unit is now permanently flying RA2 shows the way here. The Rocketeer is everything the Jump Infantry wanted to be. It should to be permanently airborne with all the advantages and disadvantages that entails. This would open the unit up as a GDI midgame harasser and scout, and could be a potent unit when combined with the MLRS and/or Orca. Wolverine: * Range increased from 5 to 6 * Rate of Fire increased from 50 to 30 * Hit points increased from 175 to 200 * Move speed decreased from 7 to 6 The Wolverine and the Buggy are probably the most maligned units in the game. Both struggle to see play when each side already has solid anti infantry options available that are better against other targets. For the Wolverine to actually compete with the crushing power of APCs and Titans, the Wolverine needs to absolutely mulch infantry from range. A healthy buff to its RoF, Range, and staying power is required for this unit to see the light of day, while nerfing its movespeed keeps it more in line with the other GDI mainstays. MLRS: * Movespeed increased from 7 to 9 The MLRS has always been an awkward mix of a harasser and artillery unit that excels at neither. With the addition of the Juggernaut, its makes more sense to push the units harass/anti harass role harder. By making it GDI's fastest unit, its role becomes more clearly defined. With its impressive range, the unit becomes more effective at darting in and out of bases to harass buildings and harvesters. With its newfound speed, It also makes a good counter to Bikes or Air Harrass. Its possible the unit may need an HP or Armor nerf with its newfound speed, but I would like to see the unit in action before making such a change to this under used unit. Orca: * Orca clip size decreased from 12 to 8 * Missile damage increased from 30 to 60 * Orca missile damage vs Wood increased from 65% to 80% * Orca reload time reduced from 22s to 15s (1.875s per missile) * Orca movespeed reduced from 20 to 14 A badly underused aircraft, the TS version of the Orca is probably the weakest iteration in any CnC. Supposedly a GDI mainstay, the Orca doesn't do enough damage, takes too long to unload its missiles, and spends too much time reloading. The miss mechanics don't help either. With the proposed changes, A pair of Orcas could kill a Titan, while a single Orca could kill a Tick Tank or Artillery. While three Orcas would still be needed to kill a harvester. The unit also becomes dangerous against light buildings, with 4 Orcas killing a Power Plant or Barracks that isn't being repaired. These changes help bring what is supposed to be a core unit into the light, and pave the way to nerf Orca Bombers vs Vehicles. Cyborgs: * Damage increased from 10 to 15 (clip size is 4 I believe, so from 40 to 60 per volley) * RoF increased from 30 to 25 * HP reduced from 300 to 250 Outside of the Buggy/Wolverine, the Cyborg is among the least used and weakest units currently in the game. These proposed changes turn the Cyborg into the NOD answer to the Wolverine. While it remains slower, more expensive, and has less range, its tougher. doesn't take up your WF, heals in Tiberium, and now brings loads of DPS. A Health reduction helps keep the unit manageable and means basic Rifles will remain viable in certain situations after your Radar comes down. Buggy: * Weapon damage increased from 40 to 45 * Weapon range increased from 4 to 6 * Buggy weapon can now shoot air. Unlike the Wolverine, I don't think its worth trying to make the Buggy a strong anti infantry unit. Nod already has a ton of strong anti infantry units at T1 in the forms of Devil's Tongues, Artillery, and (upgraded) Cyborgs. What they don't have is quality, mobile anti air to support Rocket Troopers, and a unit that can help hold the line against GDI's superior infantry until the T1 units come online. With its longer range and higher damage, the Buggy can now kite out shorter range units as well as more effectively burst down enemy aircraft. Along with its superior scouting capability, the Buggy carves out its own niche in Nod. Attack Bike: * Range increased from 5 to 6 * Rate of Fire decreased from 60 to 90 * Damage increased from 40 to 60 * 0.15s pre-attack delay added to weapon Some small changes to make the unit more viable. The Bike itself actually isn't that far from playable, and a few tweaks here and there should help define its role as a harasser. By trading 50% of its RoF for a 50% damage buff, the unit becomes more effective at darting in and out, and increasing its overall burst damage. This makes it a more effective raider and a very dangerous Harvester hunter. The extra range lets good players work the range, but the pre-attack delay will give a wary opponent time to close and retaliate. It may be possible to cut some of the units HP for even more range or damage, but I would like to start with smaller changes and see how the unit preforms first. Tick Tank: * Cost changed from $800/9s to $700/8s * Armor type changed from light / concrete to heavy / heavy. Nod is traditionally thought of as the harasser faction, and while it is supposed to be weaker at frontline play than GDI, it is perhaps too weak in its current state. A large part of that comes from the Tick Tank, which relies on an awkward ability to make up for its damage and health shortcomings. By modifying its armor type to be more reliable, as well as a cost reduction to make it more massable, I believe Nod should be able to hit harder on the frontlines without overstepping onto GDI's turf. Devil's Tongue: * Weapon now shoots through terrain. * Armor type changed from Light to Heavy The armor type change is basically what I'm most interested in here. By changing from light to heavy, infantry will do dramatically less damage to Devil's Tongues, but most tanks and aircraft will do more. Stealth Tank: * Health decreased from 180 to 150 * Range decreased from 6 to 5 * Stealth Tank clip sized increased from 1 to 3 * Stealth Tank clip cooldown 0.10s, reload time unchange For anyone who doesn't really understand what this means, its basically saying the Stealth Tank will now fire 6 missiles in 3 sets of 2, nearly tripling its DPS, and giving it one of, if not the highest DPS to costs in the game. In exchange for this monster buff, I'm taking some range to help diversify it from the Attack Bike as well as some HP to keep it an absolute glass cannon. The unit will probably require a fair bit of babysitting to be effective, but the payout should be highly rewarding. Harpy: * Harpy clip size reduced from 24 to 12 * Harpy damage increased from 60 to 120 * Harpy Reload time reduced from 76s to 19s (4x faster or 1.58s per clip) The Harpy is a pretty narrow craft. While it packs a ton of ammo and potential damage, its preposterous reload time, and crazy time required over the target to unload it all, mean it really doesn't see much play. By reducing both of these down to more sane levels, the aircraft has more of a chance to shine in the midgame as either an infantry counter or a base harasser. There is a possibility of reducing the clip size from 12 to 11 and increasing the damage from 120 to 125, allowing the Harpy to 1 shot light infantry, which would make it a very deadly answer to infantry rushes. There are more changes that could be made here, but I think its a good first start. Some of the more overused units might be viable for a nerf after these changes. (like the aforementioned Bomber) Additionally, defenses could probably use a pass, as well as some of the support powers. Its possible the Cyborg Commando may not need to be quite so strong with Nod's arsenal opening up more. All in all though, I think this is a good starting point.