Could the GDI faction become balanced with ONLY a weapons factory buff? Can other users have their own balance mod too?

[mightywindr]

What happens for example if you make the weapons factory as strong as a construction yard or even the airfield, does that make it a hands down win for GDI players? 

If so why make lots of different balance changes when you can just make one change and so keep in tact the true identity of the game as much as possible while also making it function properly for faction balance?  

The remasters took out the APC and made Orca's target Apaches mid air, slowed it down to a snails pace and made lots of ugly little changes that ruined the identity of the game, made it simple less intelligent less exciting and less varied. 

Could you do what is perhaps a less sophisticated balance that still basically balances the game without ruining the identity of the game? Like the sped up air planes for nod but this time GDI players get a large buff to their weapons factory  to counter the obvious nod advantage. Then you keep the identity of the real game intact balance the game and while the balance is less sophisticated you gain an advantage in staying true to the original, an identity advantage where the character and previously mentioned pro points of the original TD game isnt affected, and the long honed skill of the players isnt either. Also another point, the uneven way the game balances under different tactics and timed points in a game is something I really love about this classic iconic game,  it makes it complex and exciting rather than simple and mindless - like how the remasters has become. 

Is that possible to have that as a tick box I saw 3 people got their own mod which no one uses, well more of us about 12 players want this as a mod can we get our own tick box mod as well? 

Im not against their mod, a mod that introduces the unused units while NOT balancing the game,  is a nice idea but it  will never be properly balanced because its too complex for 3 untrained people to do, also I just dont like the way 3 people get to decide for everyone how that mod will be, the polls didnt ask the community playing the game and not using the forum which is most of us, and the polls dont affect enough what the mod will look like either anyway, its basically up to 3 players to decide and tell us what we all want. 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by mightywindr

[mightywindr]

I know engineers and the APC are a problem for GDI players, but they can do it back mirror do a better engineer rush themselves, they can counter with guard towers and Humvee or a grenadier rax spam, guard with many soldiers, protect grenadiers with tanks and vice versa making the APC useless for crushing,  or go an all in. This game is more addictive and exciting with that danger grief and variety. 

Also  the boost to the weapons factory would make Apache's buggies and bikes less dominant. The grenadiers are very powerful but also very in jeopardy due to the APC and Apache this is a nice balance thats in nods favour but the net effect of a stronger weapons factory would in a round about way balance the game without changing it, thats what im proposing. So while the grenadiers are still in  trouble you no longer have to use a map that gives GDI players a protective cliff its like they have their own cliff now inbuilt, it solves the mapping problem. The GDI player will be able to hold on better till late game so it kinda does balance the grenadiers- APC/Apache in an indirect way, do you know what I mean? 

So it changes little to nothing about the real game while balancing the factions , but over at remasters they tried to balance in a more detailed  multiple-specific way, not a round about way,  which reduced the identity of the game and the thrill complexity drama and variety , in order to get that faction  balance

 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by mightywindr

[Hungry Mike]

There is nothing to change. GDI will always be weak bro. JOIN THE BROTHERHOOD! SEE THE LIGHT! Or get eaten by my hungry engineers  

[mightywindr]

2 hours ago, Hungry Mike said:

There is nothing to change. GDI will always be weak bro. JOIN THE BROTHERHOOD! SEE THE LIGHT! Or get eaten by my hungry engineers  

Haha! 

 

Another point id like to add is this would balance in a more asymmetrical way which is how the game is already but thats better because... 

 

1 it sorts the map problem out, you wouldnt have to make the map an attempt at balance you could just make it a map for game play exclusively, alot of the nod bias maps would become GDI friendly and that doesn't happen when the game is balanced the other way so well because the weapons factory is still weak 

2 it keeps the identity of the game, (its a classic, historical  a winning formula)

3 it keeps the game complex varied intelligent 

4 it keeps the game exciting/drama filled which Mike here likes especially and that is part of the fun even though its not strictly the game. EA gave into the weak boys that got upset over engineer rushing, and they took away the banter in the lobby after a game the friendly community and human interaction period

5 we already have mirror balance when you both choose the same faction its more boring  to make the opposing faction more symmetrically balanced  like they have at remasters, there less twists and turns excitement and options for tactics  (so while is more symmetrically balanced that TAKES AWAY from the game rather than adds to it they are adding boredom simplicity taking away high emotion, its more symmetrically balanced but also more bland samey dull unintelligent .

So obviously they have still maintained asymmetric balance in the strengths and weaknesses of each faction but because it was balanced in multiple ways with multiple units and structures, not only does it lose identity with that way of balancing it loses what ive mention above , it becomes generic play, the same every single game, everyone plays the same way, has the same style does the same thing, its the same match over and over again , its terrible. 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by mightywindr

[mightywindr]

I appreciate its not in line with the way modern games are balanced but this isnt a modern game and when you balance it in a modern way you take the soul of the game away,  along with the depth variety and emotional highs, its a winning formula a classic, the tampering should be a bare minimum, like art or building restoration.  Or a classic food recipe that everyone likes, a variation on it tends to be worse not better. 

You cant leave it entirely alone because its slightly broken thats what some people want,  but you cant change it too much either like s others want because it becomes someones mod or it becomes more balanced but SURPRISINGLY WORSE, a mix  of the two perspectives I feel is just right. Do JUST enough to fix it, and less is more.

 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by mightywindr

[Ford (retired)]

sounds like nostalgia and bias to me xD
 

Quote

2 it keeps the identity of the game, (its a classic, historical  a winning formula)

C&C is a casual and dying franchise and successful RTS nowadays stray away from this formula lol.  EA games actually got their fans to rebuy games that they made freeware for 20$ including me.  It's quite obvious that the fans have a status quo bias towards this classic game which is actually a hindrance to the potential growth and competitive culture of the game.

[Thunder Bolt]

On 8/20/2021 at 9:24 AM, Ford (retired) said:

sounds like nostalgia and bias to me xD
 

C&C is a casual and dying franchise and successful RTS nowadays stray away from this formula lol.  EA games actually got their fans to rebuy games that they made freeware for 20$ including me.  It's quite obvious that the fans have a status quo bias towards this classic game which is actually a hindrance to the potential growth and competitive culture of the game.

I think the point he was trying to make is it becomes like remasters when you try to make it modern, where its buggies and bikes every game no matter what. Its hideously repetitive in remasters now they've made it "modern" ie the games so old when you try to make it modern that repetitiveness happens. Its horrible. 

If you do something a little better than what EA did, it becomes a completely different mod because little changes make a big difference in competitive games, so it doesn't take much to change the identity of a game, it basically becomes someone else mod. People like their own ideas for a mod but few like someone elses ideas so no one will ever agree on how it should be. So no one will ever play it. 

So as you see with this mod no one plays it except the occasional new person who puts the money up and presses all the buttons to green. 

Also people have mastered and put tons of hours into mastering the real game as it is so the pros dont want to go back to being in-experienced again after earning hard their rank as they are. Also they dont want to get excellent at a mod that isnt even the real game because now they are not even improving at the real game. Now they are just good at an unknown mod made by some random novice mod makers. 

The mod has been a failure no one plays I think its time for removal or its time to hand it over to someone else the best active players right now are Kipp and Lenovo , perhaps you could hand the reigns over to those two, or to people that are active in the game and are the best at the game? Why are people that are novice at the game or not involved in the community in charge of other peoples preferences?  Is that what the staff at the top of cnc.net want for us the community the players?

I personally agree with the thread starter everyone hates the weak GDI factory why not have a tick box for a GDI factory as strong as construction yard and leave it like that? If anyone would agree on something that might  be the only thing that gets a consensus.

Btw they have no idea how to balance a game its not balanced at all.  It just comes down to them doing what they fancy for a mod and thats not on, the people playing the game should be designing what they fancy instead. The people playing every day the best players. 

Community

Its not a community patch when we are voting on changes you decide to put up for a vote, when the community isnt even on this forum for the most part  isn't them designing a mod

Balance 

Its not a balance patch if its not balancing the game. 

This mod its a good idea but again people have different tastes different preferences and your preferences are not theirs and vice versa. So its just a kick in the face to all the active players that are not designing the mod who perhaps should be designing the mod. 

If we like your stuff we will play it, but if the staff allow you to insist your preferences on us and we STILL dont play it, we still dont use the maps or mods, dont you think its time to hand over the reigns to someone else? People that earnt their position their rank  the top 3 active players perhaps? The best most competent players ? Please can we get some people we respect in charge? 

 

In any kind of business or professional setting you know they dont tell the mediocre salesman to teach everyone else and create the sales pitches they ask the best sales men to help out. They dont ask the middle of the class student that tries real hard at university, to give a lecture to the rest of the students you know, they ask the talented student!  Please put the best in charge. Lets make something competent or make nothing at all  

 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Thunder Bolt

[Thunder Bolt]

Yea the bottom line is these guys abuse power, they are abusive like illegal level abusive some very evil threats, the upper staff let them still have power and sway. Perhaps because they let them because they stayed novice/mediocre the longest? Or perhaps because they made some good maps over teh years? 

This mod is horrific resolutions that neither the pros or the noobs use, unbalanced changed identity of the game, glitch units like visceroids, random unpopular preferences in what the changes are, no one plays it bar confused noobs. 

Why are the upper staff allowing known corrupt mods rule the forum like they used to rule the lobby ina corrupt way, why do they let them and let them abuse people,  why do they let the oldest players that are not even good at the game decide whats best for balance and a mod, when everything tehy make is unpopular not liked by the community,  why when  they dont even take part in the community due to fear of loss and humiliation due to a narcissistic personality's that cant handle teh truth that they are try hard average joes or worse ,  why are they letting those guys have all the say? WHY

THEY ARE LIKE SICK 40-50 PLUS YEAR OLD "CHILDREN'S GAME MAP MAKERS" THAT CANT PLAY THE GAME THEY ARE OBSESSED WITH AND SCRUTINISE, LACKING DECENT EDUCATION LEVELS, AND JOB PROSPECTS, WHY ARE THEY IN CHARGE? 

Upper staff WHY? FUNKY WHY LET THESE GUYS DECIDE?

why do you let corruption happen with the mods and their weird low ranking incompetent friends?

THE UPPER STAFF THINK ITS OK TO NOT LET THE HIGHER RANKS AND TEH REAL COMMUNITY YOU GUYS  HAVE THE CHOICE, THEY THINK ITS OK TO LET SOME OLDER GUYS THAT ABUSE OTHERS THINK THEY ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS WITH COUNTER EVIDENCE, AND HAVE  A LOWER RANK/ABILITY THEY LET THOSE GUYS HAVE THE CHOICE OVER YOU!!!, THATS WHAT THE UPPER STAFF ARE SAYING TO WHOLE OF THE TD COMMUNITY!

THEY ARE SAYING THESE GUYS ARE YOUR BOSS YOUR LEADERS THEY A RE BETTER TAHN YOU AND THEY KNOW BEST,  THEY SHOULD FORCE WHAT THEY WANT ONTO YOU/US, WHEN YOU ANNIHILATE THEM AND EMBARRASS THEM OUT OF PLAYING THE GAME , WHEN YOU HAVE YOUR OWN PREFERENCES THAT ARE NOT LESS THAN SOME OLDER AVERAGE JOE TRY HARD WEIRD OLDER GUYS PREFERENCES !

Edited August 27, 2021 by Thunder Bolt

[Nyerguds]

On 8/20/2021 at 10:24 AM, Ford (retired) said:

It's quite obvious that the fans have a status quo bias towards this classic game which is actually a hindrance to the potential growth and competitive culture of the game.

Implying C&C needs a competitive culture ?

[tac]

On 8/27/2021 at 10:01 PM, Thunder Bolt said:

...

You are right about the mod makes the game loses its "identity" but isn't that the whole point of modding? Every C&C has its own modding scene, it was something that people were encouraged to do to bring life to the modding community. People mod games if the original isn't how they envisioned it. Red Alert 2 has the YR balance patch thing, Tiberian Sun has the veteran patch, even Red Alert's slower tank production option here is a mod that changes the game.

Don't get me wrong chem, I agree with this not being "the real game" and how experienced players skills are not relevant in this, but that rant seems a bit melodramatic as if there's a personal grudge. I've seen worse mods at moddb, this one is an option and it doesn't divide the TD players. 

There is no way to have only the weapons factory buff, they all come in a package. The remaster balance mod isn't so bad because it only nerf the APC slightly and speed up cargo plane in addition to the WF armor, it's the other changes that we can't disable that ruins it for me and they also affect singleplayer but I guess I got used to it already.