"Veteran 1.5" - how does it work and what was the rationale for adding it?

[f1ref0x]

Hi

I'm an old player (1999-2004, was one of the top players from 2002). It occurred to me a few days ago to Google "tiberian sun" and I found this CNCnet, and I must say it's very impressive. Job well done to whoever's doing it!

The modified Terrace map is great (auto-ally and also TL fix). I am wondering though about the "Veteran 1.5" thing. I noticed that this seems to upgrade units to veteran status much more quickly than before. So I have two questions:

(1) How exactly/precisely does it work (in particular, as compared to the original)?

(2) What was the rationale for adding it? (I haven't played enough games to have much of an opinion on whether it's a good thing. So I was wondering why whoever that added it, added it.)

[dkeeton]

 

 

11 minutes ago, f1ref0x said:

(2) What was the rationale for adding it? (I haven't played enough games to have much of an opinion on whether it's a good thing. So I was wondering why whoever that added it, added it.)

The original TS has unit upgrades that happen at 10x unit kill value. So a MK would have to kill 3000x10 value worth of buildings/units to get 1st level upgrades. It was nearly impossible to get a "Star" MK and every other unit for that matter was nearly impossible. Even if you did get some unit upgraded to Star the upgrades still sucked.

In my opinion the unit upgrade system was just never given consideration because the game was rushed to release before all the design decisions were made.

 

11 minutes ago, f1ref0x said:

(1) How exactly/precisely does it work (in particular, as compared to the original)?

"Star" upgrades happen at 6x value killed, the Star MK has an upgraded weapon with enough damage to 1-shot a Titan and 1-shot component towers.  The star CC can 3-shot buildings I think.

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by dkeeton

[f1ref0x]

I see. Thanks for the information. It was indeed impossibly rare for most units to ever get to veteran or star status.

But IIRC, didn't a starred MK become invisible? (I might be remembering wrongly though as that was an extraordinarily rare occurrence.)

[dkeeton]

1 hour ago, f1ref0x said:

I see. Thanks for the information. It was indeed impossibly rare for most units to ever get to veteran or star status.

But IIRC, didn't a starred MK become invisible? (I might be remembering wrongly though as that was an extraordinarily rare occurrence.)

I'm pretty sure it never turned invisible. You could always get crates that did that though. The MK wasn't even "trainable" meaning it didn't get any veterancy at all.

Also, you should play Vet1.6b it's better than 1.5.

[f1ref0x]

Yes you're probably right. I'm probably confusing it with a crate I saw one time.

How's Vet 1.6b different from 1.5?

I've had a few more games in and I'd note that this fast Vet patch thing changes gameplay a little in that it makes MK for example significantly more valuable. Whether this change is good or bad is subjective i guess.

[Humble]

1.6 b does this:

cyborgs and medics are a bit better (trying to make them not worthless)

wolverines and buggies are a bit better

stealth tanks can q and have slightly better armour / firepower (they require tech and are 1.5x cost of titans, they shouldn't suuuuuuck)

obelisk has slightly better armour

tick tanks do not get raped by bombers, but take damage from them as titans would (but they still have same armour vs everything else, including mk/gs rail gun)

tick tanks have slightly better armour/fire power while deployed (making them sliggghtly better than titans while deployed, but still lessor than titans while not deployed)

sub apc can bareeeeeeely survive a mk shot, to help people have slightly better chance of getting a star cc, which is very hard

 

 

main goal for this is to get more people playing nod and minimally balance out the shortcomings of nod (99% of players play gdi these days, especially due to fast game speeds and nod requiring mass micro)

 

i'll get around to making a complete list of all the veteran upgrades sometime soon, they are very even between nod / gdi units, and the mk / cc are the only significantly strong ones.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Humble

[Tomo]

On ‎19‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 3:23 AM, f1ref0x said:

Hi

I'm an old player (1999-2004, was one of the top players from 2002). It occurred to me a few days ago to Google "tiberian sun" and I found this CNCnet, and I must say it's very impressive. Job well done to whoever's doing it!

The modified Terrace map is great (auto-ally and also TL fix). I am wondering though about the "Veteran 1.5" thing. I noticed that this seems to upgrade units to veteran status much more quickly than before. So I have two questions:

(1) How exactly/precisely does it work (in particular, as compared to the original)?

(2) What was the rationale for adding it? (I haven't played enough games to have much of an opinion on whether it's a good thing. So I was wondering why whoever that added it, added it.)

its basically a way for the 10 guys who have played this game for 20 years to get a further advantage over any new players , I would even consider it a cheat for the elites and have it banned .  The latest maps 1.6 beta are even worse than 1.5 , it gets to a stage where the MK kills titans in 1 shot , that in my eyes is a joke , but hey its just a game  I suppose . Play the non juiced upped maps to make it a fairer game . Cheers

[Humble]

Sorry you feel that way Tomo!

Some things to maybe take into consideration:

1. If a player is that much better than you that you feel they are able to take advantage of the Veteran Upgrade System so much, then you are probably better off not 1v1ing them to begin with, since there is a obviously such a huge gap in skill levels.  Maybe start with some lessor skilled players and work your way up.

2. In team play games, if you focus on balancing out the teams, there should be at least one good player on each side that can utilize the vet system.

3. Maybe start practicing not wasting units, especially MK / CC.

4. There has to be more like 50 semi-active players that can easily get Veteran status units, and in games where all players are newer the playing field should be even anyways.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Humble

[Tomo]

Just now, Humble said:

Sorry you feel that way Tomo!

Some things to maybe take into consideration:

1. If a player is that much better than you that you feel they are able to take advantage of the Veteran Upgrade System so much, then you are probably better off not 1v1ing them to begin with, since there is a obviously such a huge gap in skill levels.  Maybe start with some lessor skilled players and work your way up.

2. In team play games, if you focus on balancing out the teams, there should be at least one good player on each side that can utilize the vet system.

3. Maybe start practicing not wasting units, especially MK / CC.

4. There has to be more like 50 semi-active players that can easily get Veteran status units, and in games where all players are newer the playing field should be even anyways.

No need to be sorry bro  ,  this is just my opinion , you can agree or disagree but no need to feel bad etc --my point is the upgrades to the MK are simply an advantage for the guys who have played for 20 years and who play terrace . Would you not agree that these upgrades  benefit the older players first off ? Of course this could encourage players to perhaps try and integrate the MK in to their game but  naturally the older players would use the MK a lot more than players who haven't played as long , so in turn its an advantage for the already experienced players  . My point to the other guy who started the thread was play the non upgrade maps then no-one has an advantage , so naturally the game is fairer if a young buck comes up against an old war horse  .  To the point you made about different skill levels  if there is a player who is better than you why should he have a little more advantage by getting a 1 shot kill MK ? surely its better to keep the upgrades to a minimum then the game is based on skill with the tools you have and not on upgrades? Cheers Tomo

 

[KevinLancaster]

Is there a place where you can get the maps with these rule changes outside of the competitive ladder, for testing?

[dkeeton]

21 hours ago, KevinLancaster said:

Is there a place where you can get the maps with these rule changes outside of the competitive ladder, for testing?

http://mapdb.cncnet.org/search.php?game=ts&age=0&search=vet+1.6\

http://mapdb.cncnet.org/search.php?game=ts&age=0&search=vet1.6

http://mapdb.cncnet.org/search.php?game=ts&age=0&search=vet+1.5

 

[KevinLancaster]

I was comparing the Terrace versions, and for some reason the last vet1.6 version has a massive number of edits compared to the rest; in addition it has even more edits than the 1.8 version which I found weird. Also when I compared 1.8 to the second last 1.6 version, I didn't find any changes that were present in the 11-11 1.6 version.

Edit: The last 1.6 version seems to have a few randomly placed neutral units and buildings.

Are the Vet edits intended for base TS or also FS?

Edited December 8, 2017 by KevinLancaster

[Humble]

Not sure why there are so many Terraces 1.6, but e54051ec3179e64767d2382943e117724c8a1141 is the correct checksum.

 

It would be nice if at some point the cncnet client could allow map makers to submit new releases of their maps to cncnet somehow.

 

It seems people are making modifications (whatever they may be) to maps, and using the same original title (like the one Kevin mentioned that someone for some weird reason added randomly placed invisible units/buildings on).

Edited December 13, 2017 by Humble

[KevinLancaster]

So Humble, would you know if the changes are intended for base TS or FS? Since there was a veteran rate increase in Firestorm, but I'm not sure which version players use online (the TS lobby is usually empty). The inclusion of part of the vanilla ruleset in the Vet 1.5 maps seems to undo some of the changes in FS as well.

[dkeeton]

1 hour ago, KevinLancaster said:

So Humble, would you know if the changes are intended for base TS or FS? Since there was a veteran rate increase in Firestorm, but I'm not sure which version players use online (the TS lobby is usually empty). The inclusion of part of the vanilla ruleset in the Vet 1.5 maps seems to undo some of the changes in FS as well.

This change exists purely in modified maps that are labeled "Vet 1.6" or "Vet 1.5". It's a modified map that does change the game in both TS and FS mode, but its meant to played in TS mode.