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Clicked on "No Spy" faster than you can say "Spy!". Great update. Played on that X Isle map and it seemed good.

IIRC The Soviets absolutely sucked in that game. I only watched a few competitive matches and basically everyone said Allied or those Anime Samurais took a massive steaming pile of shit on them. etc etc etc

The best way to balance Apocs: forget about them. It's simply a shitty unit. Go buy Rhinos with Teslas. Using IC on Apocs is also a waste of IC and $$$... Yea you might destroy a building when your fatass gets over there, but when it wears off it's a 100% L. When a Kirov has more use than an Apoc.... You know it's bad. I'd even say V3s have more use than that hunk of junk. IIRC in Red Alert 3 they've completely redesigned Apocs. They knew it was terrible in RA2. Edit: read a bit more of this thread. The problem with Apocs is that they're basically Jackshit at All Trades. Can you name one thing that Apoc excels at when compared to any other unit? Sieging a base? Prisms, Choppers, Magnetrons, BFs excel at that. Even V3s have their use. Upper hand in basic tank battle? Yeah, maybe if you live long enough for that mircale to happen. But honestly you'd do the same thing with Rhinos and Teslas if the game drags that long, and your opponent is technically already beaten. Armor? BF is almost if not identical in HP and armor classification. Speed? All units run circles around it. Good against infantry? Just about every other tank is better at that. Good AA? If you're using Apocs as AA you deserve to lose. How about Mindcontrol? Absolutely useless. What would you rather have against a single $800 Yuri clone, an Apoc or 2-3 Rhinos/1-2 Teslas? Now you have your answer. Even if the most OP scenario you can think of.... Chrono + IC.... Every other unit mentioned above will do better. Can't flank, can't outtank, can't catch up, can't retreat, damage is nothing to scream about, cheesed by air units, too slow, too expensive, too long to build, sucks against infantry, gets kited until no tomorrow, one shot by mind control...All that, for a hefty bill of $1750. What a deal!

I like those TD changes. As for Apocs, not sure... I still don't see a point in buying them even with those changes. Maybe if the game drags long enough and you amass enough of them they will be worth it. As for being immune to mind control, might be overboard since Yuri revolves around mind control... But at the same time, having one $800 bald fuck instantly own a $1750 unit is just bad design to begin with.

Yeah, autoready needs a bit more work. It's really annoying when you get back to the lobby, start the game because "everyone is ready", but in reality there's this 1 guy who's still in the previous game. Game starts aaaaand..... he doesn't load.

Fine. Put a toggle button that disables it altogether. That way everyone's happy.

This map is awesome. Especially with that cliff in the middle that just begs for deployed choppers... I call it "CliffyC", just like Cliff Slide or whatever it's called...

Speak for yourself. I only play with this patch on now. You have RA2 you can always go back to....

I have posted a video there by Bryan that shows it pretty well. Dodging all BF GGIs missiles while firing with crazy AOE, 100% accuracy, damage and range is not enough? Having an ability to delete an entire base with just 1 unit without getting hit once is not enough? By the way...."Spy's out the equation"...You have to take it into equation. Veteran Prisms take a massive dump on everything. I'll keep abusing this 0 skill unit for sure if it stays this way. No point in Mirages or BFs.

Right, so Tesla tanks not only detect Mirages... but also Spies. Effortlessly kill an effortless unit. Brilliant.

The "pr0 pliar" argument again.... Name me one unit that doesn't belong to Allied that can give you the same benefits while demanding balls all. If he was Soviet or Yuri, he wouldn't have free 12k in the same exact situation. This unit demands exactly 0 effort, costs nothing and can either give you free Veterans, free money, the most broken units if you spy a lab, or just sap power for 30 seconds. Step 1: Build IFV. Step 2: abuse waypoint. Step 3: Send to a building of your choice, 99% success rate. Step 4(optional): shoot dogs/drones from IFV, because for some genius reason, Spy inside IFV can still use the MG. It's too good, most nations bar Iraq have balls all as a response to this, and even then they have to be careful deploying the base Desos as it'll damage his units that are leaving the factories. Ironically Allied are the worst when it comes to countering Spies. The lame Spies are especially powerful on games that are not "pr0 pliar dune walk", 3x3 or 4x4 games are basically Spy games. Why have a toggle for Multi-Engineer, who are no where as dangerous as Spies? That's why I suggested making a toggle for No Spies as well. If you're a "pro pliar", more power to you, play with Spies. CNCNet is all about options, right? If you meant the newly buffed Prisms then just LOL. Just about everyone agrees that the buff was unnecessary.

Only was a matter of time.... Also shows just why Spies are broken beyond all fuck. Easy 12k with no effort whatsoever.

What kind of a test is this? Prisms vs Rhinos?.... Besides it depends on the map and how many Rhinos vs Prisms. I'd actually argue that in a lot of situations the Prisms will take a dump on Rhinos. Let's compare it to Battlelab units.... Prisms vs Masterminds.... you just run away and they'll never catch you. Prisms vs Mirages..... Mirages get absolutely bamboozled. Prisms vs Apocs....LOL. Then you also apply the Desolator nerf and the fact that a single Prism can wipe out an entire base without getting hit once.... Making almost every single static defense building absolutely worthless... Hmmm...... So not only it's the best artillery unit, great against infantry and pretty good against MOST vehicles.... And the armor is not too shabby, it takes like 3 Rhino hits to kill one Prism.... that's it if the Rhino shells actually hit... and that's without Spies.... As much as I like this patch, there are serious problems with this as I and others have pointed out. Why on Earth have you made that you cannot dodge Harriers or Black Eagles? Dodging them took at least some skill. They're more useful than Kirovs as is, and yet you buff them even more. And let's say some noob sends Black Eagles on your MCV. Wtf are you supposed to do now? You can't dodge them anymore. Would it not make more sense to simply reduce the price of it? Sniper IFV one shotting drones.... tell me, which unit you're supposed to use to catch up an IFV then as Soviets? It's not like Sniper IFV is completely useless against drones pre nerf...You eat the drone and then repair it with another IFV. Now you don't even need to do that. By the way, France isn't that bad now. The fact that your units actually now autotarget the GCs nerfed them pretty bad. It could maybe even be further nerfed by a slight HP reduction. I'm more concerned about the god damn Spies.... this unit is simply too good for what it costs and the effort it takes. Plz toggle to turn that shit off....

I really like Russia now. Mixing Teslas with Rhinos is simply amazing. So many players think Russia still sucks and get absolutely bamboozled. Worked great against GI/France turtles, Yuri, Rhino spammers and most importantly.... Skillz0r Battleforts. In fact I barely use Iraq at this point....

But that's the thing. All Allied Battlelab units take a dump on Apocs. In fact I wouldn't even use Apocs against Grizzlies. Simply because Rhinos are faster, are more numerous, don't get cheesed by Air units, and their armor is good enough. Yuri doesn't even think about Apocs, they're completely useless against Masterminds, Discs, Yuri clones, Magnetrons. There's only 1 map where I can think Apocs are useful, same with Kirovs....The noob Rekool maps. And why is that? Because you have unlimited money there and instant build.... Most of the time they still get shat on by Allied still, even with all these map manipulations. Honestly I think what Apocs need is splash damage, doesn't need to be massive. For one it'd help dealing with "Skillz0r" Mirages. Get rid of the shitty missiles, why would I need poor man's Patriot when Soviets have Flaks? Lower the cost a bit. Speed can be 5 if Rhino is at 6. If Battlefort is an issue then nerf that POS unit.

You know what, I actually agree. There was a game where we got absolutely shat on by someone who spied a noob, and then spammed Veteran Grizzlies. They're basically Rhino tanks but better. I really can't stand Spies...

...What are you talking about??? Apocs being the most cost-effective unit???....... Are we playing the same game? Mirages + rockies annihilate Apocs. Thanks to the fact that all the Allied player needs to do is put a few Rockies infront of Mirages, and Apocs will use their shitty missiles instead of canons. And then the fact that the Soviet player needs to click on each Mirage, which in turn slows down the Apocs on each attack order due to the stupid "acceleration". Meanwhile the Allied "pr0 pliar" picks his nose. Battleforts absolutely destroy them without suffering a SINGLE loss. And now you have Prisms that fire on the move...Apocs will never catch up to them, and as soon as a single Elite Prism shows up.... Apocs stand no chance. Hell I bet you that even Veteran Grizzles will find more uses than Apocs. The most cost-effective Soviet tank is the Rhino. Apocs are too costly, take too long to build, are too slow, easily cheesed and even with fire on the move have barely any use.

But isn't that the point of Teching up? Allies don't build Grizzlies when they get Battlelab. Unless they get free, totally earned Veteran promotions via Spy, and even then it's a rarity. Apocs still take a long time to build, so fielding them in large numbers is out of the question. And you can still cheese them with Air units....

Yeah, Sniper IFV one-shotting drones is laughable. I played around 15 games today with this patch, here's what I liked: Tesla tanks are monsters now. For some reason Robo tanks take a lot of bolts to get destroyed though. I thought they were light armored? German TDs mixed with Prisms were great. However I think TDs should be able to fire on the move, especially considering they cost $900 now but have no turret. People actually played as Cuba and Libya. Here's what I didn't like: Screw Prisms. I got 3 Elite Prisms really easily in one game, and they just destroyed everything and everyone. It was already an OP, brainless unit. And now you made it even more brainless. Like wtf is a Soviet player supposed to do against Prisms who he cannot catch up, it constantly moves, doesn't miss, outranges everything bar V3 or deployed crappy choppers, does crazy AOE, slow downs units when hit, and further buffed with Desos doing less damage to Light armor? It got so crazy in fact that I wasn't even afraid of Battleforts, another braindead OP unit from the Allies. You buff Prisms, barely change anything about Battleforts, and do nothing about Spies. Can you just imagine how cancerous Prisms will be now? Apocs are still trash. Who's going to run them over with Battleforts? The piece of shit will die long before that.

Prisms need their fire on the move removed ASAP. So easy to get them into Elite, and then there's balls all anyone can do against them now.

Tesla tanks are actually useful now.

Apocs are still trash imo. Remove the shitty AA missiles, they do more harm than good, lower the cost. It's one of the reasons why Rhino is superior, you cannot cheese it to shoot AA instead of main canon. Or at least keep these changes, but let it prioritise ground units first. Sniper IFV can one shot drones.... What, why? No Germany changes? TD is the one that needs to one shot drones. Magnetron changes are good.

It really depends on the map.... 4v4 Cliffy and Yuri is still crazy powerful, anything smaller and he's pretty weak with this on. The entire game is an unbalanced mess which is a staple of Westwood games. Red Alert, Dune... they all had awful balancing. I'd say the biggest offender is the Allies. They have so many units that have either at least a use or straight up break the game. Spies for example are pretty useless on their own. Put them into IFV and it's almost a 99% success rate to infiltrate and get those free promotions. Veteran Allied units absolutely shit on either Soviet or even pre-nerf Yuri, with any unit: Grizzly, Prism, Mirage, BF, Rockies.... Hell the floating BF that rains down missiles while being pulled by Mags is something else... Not one unit can do this, but since BF is such a Underpowered unit.../s Speaking of which, a toggle to disable Spies would be amazing. Soviets really only have 1 unit that holds them together and that's the Rhino. The rest is either situational or straight up junk. I'm not sure if you're planning to do more balancing but these will have to be very delicate changes. Nerf the Rhino and the entire Soviet ground tree is absolutely worthless, unless other units get crazy buffs. The naval depends on the map, but most servers run maps that have no naval so it's not that big of a deal.

Would be awesome, even if it's some basic support.

v3's do suck. even the 3rd level "nuke" is hilariously bad.