Yuri's Revenge Rebalanced 2.0

[[CC] RaVaGe]

On 8/26/2021 at 6:32 AM, ReaperAA said:

Well you got me here. I just checked it again now and there is a 45 fps option. I just keep it at the default 60 fps, but I could have sworn the last time I ever checked it there wasn't a 45 fps option. Cool to see that extra option added.

The client speed options correspond to the in game speed options.

The game was designed to be played at lower speed and lower resolutions.

Since players started using high resolutions, playing as Allied became more difficult because they could easily see any splits on the screen and prepare counters, while before they had to pan the map constantly to find em.

Lastly stop arguing with a theory guru who loses to most average players.

[ApocalypseTankGunner]

Germany is still in the lowest tier of countries. The buffs you gave to the Tank Destroyer aren't enough. The Tank Destroyer has a bigger gun than the Rhino Tank so it should have more range. Turret-less tanks cost less than turreted tanks so the Tank Destroyer should cost less than the Rhino Tank.

[Chinese_simple]

Can I share this file with other websites?

[TNG]

Hello!

This is my first post here, so please don't mind if I state things that had already been discussed (and dismissed) here. I've read through the thread, and it seems there is a consensus of having no consensus in many things. I really like the idea of having an official rebalance project in a pinned thread, but it should be well thought-out, and should consider the bigger picture.

Most in the OP list seems totally random and uncalled for to me. If a unit is not broken, don't fix it with random cost changes or nerfs/buffs on it.

What are the balance issues, that should be the first question. The consensus being:

1. Soviets have an early game advantage because of the Rhino spam.
2. Soviets have a massive late game handicap to both Yuri and Allies because their tier 3 units are broken (Kirov, Apoc).
3. Soviets seem to be lacking countering Yuri's mind control.
4. Allies also seem to be lacking countering Yuri's mind control, as their main counter (Robot Tank) is too weak.
5. Yuri has an unfair advantage with Boomers.
6. Some countries are clearly inferior to other ones: Russia, Cuba, Lybia, Germany. Maybe Korea too a lesser extent.

To address the issues, here are my ideas:

1. Rhinos shouldn't be nerfed. I think they should cost $950 (the iconic heavy tank cost in RA1) and return to vanilla build speed to avoid spamming too early.

2. In the case of Kirovs, I like the modification of attack while moving. I wouldn't change their armor. It's a freaky huge unit with global announcement, it should be armored. However I would add a little extra speed (not much) to be really more than just fodder. These two modifications would make them serious threats.

Apocalypse is a trickier one. Disagree with your change. The general rule of thumb is that every unit should have its own distinct advantages and disadvantages. Apoc shouldn't attack while moving, that's Rhino. It shouldn't be faster at all. Instead, IMHO it should get explosive splash damage rockets, which can incinerate multiple infrantry units, basically adding a flame tank feature to them. 
Second, it should crush enemy tanks like the battlefort (and they can't crush each other).
Third, while it shouldn't be mind control immune, but should register as two mind controlled unit. Means clones can't mind control them, masterminds and psychic towers can only control one. Controlling two can overheat the mastermind.

With these 3 changes, the apoc could be an incredible force against both Yuri and Allies. Maybe even higher price can be asked for it.

3. See above of Apocs, and below in 6. the other idea...

4. I agree with the Robot Tank changes. It should get basic buffs, nothing else. However, the Battlefort should be like the Apoc: it should register as two mind controlled units.

5. With all the buffs above, I don't think too much changes are needed for Yuri. Only one: Boomers should have a Battle Lab prerequisite, as it's not acceptable having them way ahead of Dreads/Aircraft carriers.

6. Now, that's interesting. In addition to the Apocalypse persistence to mind control, I would give the Tesla Tank (in addition to a much needed range update) a complete Magnetron immunity. It's another overpowered Yuri unit, and having a proper counter unit from a specific country would do wonders.
I would also give the immunity to Tesla coils, and the range update to Tesla Troopers. Both are a bit underused.

Another rule of thumb is: every country specific unit should be overpowered. They should be game changers, and face of the country. No way to nerf snipers or Grand Cannons. I agree with the Black Eagle accuracy update, but not with the Harrier one. The difference between the two should be bigger.

In the case of Demo Truck, the white elephant is in the room: it shouldn't be globally announced. No, it should be an important unit, and well, this is for the start. The speed upgrade is fine, the blast radius not (it can backfire easily). Instead, give them extra armor.

The cuban terrorist is another interesting one. Instead of immunity to each other (it wouldn't make sense if we follow real life logics), why not give them a spy function? They can disguise themselves as any infantry, and can infiltrate bases in numbers. Non crushable is good addition too. Again, these country specific units should be all overpowered and even "unfair" at times.

And the Tank Destroyer, well... hard to give them a proper function really. But it must destroy a BF and an Apoc 1 against 1. That's a must of musts. It should also have at least an adequate/mediocre damage against both infrantries and buildings. Like the Flak track, really. Also, they have a howitzer cannon. They should be inaccurate, and slow while turning, but it should have extra range. Again, it should be a respected unit, "Deutschland's finest".

Overall, my change ideas (from base Yuri's revenge):

Allies:

Robot Tank: No longer requires power + extra HP (200) and maybe extra damage
Tank Destroyer: Extra range (+3), boost in all damage areas (100% on Terror Drones), at least adequate on structures/infantry, can kill Apoc/BF 1 on 1.
Battlefort: Registers as 2 units during mind control

(I would maybe add a Destroyer Osprey damage buff too... they are not very good now)

Yuri:

Boomer: Prerequisite is the Battle Lab

Soviet (the most broken faction, most changes):

Rhino Tank: Cost is $950, slower build (vanilla RA2)
Apocalypse: Explosive splash damage, incinerates infrantry, crush all tanks except BF (uncrushable by BF), registers as 2 units during mind control.
Tesla Tank: +2 range, immune to Magnetron beam
Tesla Coil: Immune to Magnetron beam
Tesla Trooper: +1 range
Kirov Airship: Bombs during movement, minor extra speed
Terrorist: Can disguise himself like the spy
Demo truck: +50% armor, extra speed, no global announcement

(Maybe Flak Troopers should reduce their cost to $250, and radar shouldn't be a prerequisite).

Sorry if I went too long with this... :D

[G3cko]

The German tank destroyer is totally useless. I don't know if that's clear to you, so I'll summarize it:

This tank does 0 dmg against infantry!!!
This tank does 0 dmg aganint buildings!!!
This tank has no turret and low dmg!

The only job of this unit should be killing tanks... and he fails. Why should anybody build this? Comprate this to the tesla tank. Its great againts infantry, tanks, buildings...

Give this tank the range of the prism tank.

 

[CCCP84]

On 10/11/2022 at 6:19 PM, G3cko said:

The German tank destroyer is totally useless. I don't know if that's clear to you, so I'll summarize it:

This tank does 0 dmg against infantry!!!
This tank does 0 dmg aganint buildings!!!
This tank has no turret and low dmg!

The only job of this unit should be killing tanks... and he fails. Why should anybody build this? Comprate this to the tesla tank. Its great againts infantry, tanks, buildings...

Give this tank the range of the prism tank.

 

[TNKD]
Cost=2000

[SABOT]
Range=10

[SABOTE]
Range=11

These parameters make Germany the most popular side of the alliance in games on my Oceania.

And Tesla Tank:

[TTNK]
Cost=1700

[TankBolt]
Range=8

[TankBoltE]
Range=9

On the Black Sea map I use more conservative parameters. These parameters can be considered a reasonable compromise:

[TNKD]
Cost=1600

[SABOT]
Range=8

[SABOTE]
Range=9

Tesla Tank:

[TTNK]
Cost=1500

[TankBolt]
Range=7

[TankBoltE]
Range=8

Here I mean a slightly modified version of my maps.

[CCCP84]

On 5/22/2021 at 3:39 PM, cypher said:

In terms of gamedesign base structure defense should always be better in their focus-area than their mobile unit-counterparts. Especially when you have to consider, that they - besides being static - need power. Your argumentation sounds like the patriot missile is useless and basically strengthens the need for a rework/rebalance.

My friend, after years I prefer to agree with you. Your suggestions were good.
I've been experimenting with this a half year. I made several versions of my maps with different parameters of the patriots. As a result of months of games, I deduced the desired value:

CellSpread=1.6
This parameter is changed in the warhead.
But, you need to create a new warhead, because. SAMWH also used by AEGIS.

So:
[Warheads]
90=PATMS
[PATMS]
Verses=100%,100%,100%,100%,100%,100%,0%,0%,0%,100%,100%
AnimList=XGRYSML1,XGRYSML2,EXPLOSML
InfDeath=3
CellSpread=1.6
ProneDamage=100%
PercentAtMax=.01

This setting gives good results against large clusters of rocketeers. But it deals standard damage to a single target.
Increasing this parameter leads to excessive efficiency.
Smaller values look insufficient.

Edited March 4, 2023 by CCCP84

[CCCP84]

On 5/22/2021 at 4:37 PM, ReaperAA said:

slightly increasing splash damage radius would be enough to make them better against rocketeers while not changing their efficiency against heavier units.

👍

[CCCP84]

On 9/17/2022 at 12:00 AM, TNG said:

The cuban terrorist is another interesting one. Instead of immunity to each other (it wouldn't make sense if we follow real life logics), why not give them a spy function? They can disguise themselves as any infantry, and can infiltrate bases in numbers. Non crushable is good addition too. Again, these country specific units should be all overpowered and even "unfair" at times.

This is a great idea. Moreover, the terrorist had these functions at the development stage, apparently ..

;The evil Cuban Terrorist
[TERROR]
UIName=Name:TERROR
Name=Terrorist
Image=TRST
;Image=SPY
Category=Soldier
;Prerequisite=NAHAND,NATECH
Prerequisite=NAHAND,RADAR
CrushSound=InfantrySquish
LeadershipRating=3
Strength=75 ;changed on 11/29 from 50 to 75
;Primary=MakeupKit ; virtual weapon that picks disguise
;C4=Yes
Primary=TerrorBomb
CanPassiveAquire=no ; Won't try to pick up own targets
CanRetaliate=no; Won't fire back when hit
Armor=flak
TechLevel=5
;CanDisguise=yes; I appear differently on other people's computers
;PermaDisguise=yes; and I appear that way always (Mirage Tank will be Can but not Perma)
Sight=9
Speed=6
Owner=Russians,Confederation,Africans,Arabs
RequiredHouses=Confederation
AllowedToStartInMultiplayer=no
;Cost=1500
;Soylent=200
Cost=200
Soylent=25
Pip=red
Points=5
VoiceSelect=TerroristSelect
VoiceMove=TerroristMove
VoiceAttack=TerroristAttackCommand
VoiceFeedback=TerroristFear
VoiceSpecialAttack=TerroristAttackCommand
DieSound=TerroristDie
Locomotor={4A582744-9839-11d1-B709-00A024DDAFD1}
PhysicalSize=1
MovementZone=Infantry
ThreatPosed=0    ; This value MUST be 0 for all building addons
SpecialThreatValue=1
Trainable=no
Explodes=yes
DeathWeapon=TerrorBomb
IFVMode=11

 

I wouldn't use C4 instead I would use
Secondary=IvanBomber

With C4 it will destroy construction yard with one shot. Thats too much. With IvanBomber it will destroy Lab, oil derrick, but almost impossible to destroy const yard.

I would really like to use the terrorist in this form for my maps, but I think it is inappropriate to change it so much for a particular map. This changes the basic properties of the unit. The players won't understand.

Edited March 4, 2023 by CCCP84

[Leotony]

Hello.Here are my suggestions about Tank Destroyer,Terrorist,Apocalypse Tank and Tesla Tank

Tank Destroyer:WW intend to make it only attack tanks initially(warhead for infantry and buildings is 2%,which can't attack infantry initiatively.but 2% doesn't work reality).It's warhead for infantry and building should be 1% even 0%.Besides,It's range and speed should be at least 6.Otherwise it's ROF would decrease from 70 to 50

Terrorist:I think it should do more damage on tanks (2 terrorists can break a rhino)and can area guard like dog and terror drone.

APOC:Soviet doesn't have a general anti-infantry unit.I think it's missile would anti-infantry and anti-air.Otherwise,it's armor could change to medium to defense more damage on GGI-Battle Fortress

Tesla Tank:Elite TTNK weapon's range can increase from 6 to 7 or 7.5

[Pyrite]

I realize necros are frowned upon, but how's the new meta on this patch (like such as it is)? My thoughts based on/in comparison to the vanilla gameplay:

The new Tesla Tanks seemed OP from what I saw in videos. They already have amazing firepower against units even in vanilla YR, so they only need average range to be viable. Shooting on the move is also a welcome change that fits in well with the flavor of these fast nippy glass cannons. But anything above the typical MBT range (5.75) makes them OP.

What about Tank Destroyers? Most users here praised them, but the later posts were more mixed. Also, on the chat for a pro Blitz match I watched, people said they suck even with the patch. So what's the deal here?

I also think Prisms should have stayed buffed. Shooting on the move may not suit a slow siege unit, but I think they should at least be good at their main job. In base RA2, despite their flaws they were at least good siege units that were superior to V3s in most cases, and actually good in AvA (although not a lot of pros would accept flex factions what with being forced to play the weaker Allies). They were decent units suffering from the tank spam focus of the meta.

However, they got horribly power crept into uselessness in YR with the advent of better units like BFs, Siege Choppers and Magnetrons. The first one outclasses Prisms at their job of destroying buildings unless sent with the Chronosphere to destroy a key concrete building, and even then you're better off Chronoshifting BFs instead into a Soviet base that can be irradiated at any time, or when the opponent is so far ahead that destroying a single key building doesn't move the needle. Also, both Choppers and Magnetrons outrange them, so their range isn't as impressive as in base RA2 anymore. Choppers are better siege units to boot, with more range, mobility and spammability. They're only rarely used because Rhino spam works like 90% of the time, not because they're bad themselves, but when the Sovs actually need a different strategy like against Yuri, they work well. And while Magnetrons are worse at siege, they're way better otherwise. You can surround a single Magnetron with one million Prisms, and the Magnetron still wins because they're slower and can never come in range. TBF ironically they're fairly decent against Yuri based on what I saw from some high-level vanilla YR matches from the past when used with the Chronosphere (could be because BF stands for "backfire" when mind controlled and filled with Yuri Clones/sent to Grinders, and they're the only Allied unit on land that can outrange psychic towers and Gatling bunkers while destroying these structures quickly).

I think the Siege Chopper and Magnetron were made to be better because Westwood heavily encouraged capturing buildings and combining techs in campaigns in general, so you could put Prisms into Tank Bunkers and get a pretty good base defense that's fairly durable and barely more expensive than a regular defense tower without consuming any power whatsoever. Fittingly enough, this combination has the same range as a Siege Chopper. However, capturing buildings with engineers is a pretty cheap tactic in PvP (and Prisms are infamously OP in PvE even without bunkers), so even if you beat someone with it, you'll lose tons of respect in the community.

So, I think giving them the same range as a Siege Chopper (without the ability to auto-shoot being brought back because it's silly) will solve most of the vanilla Allied late game problems without making them OP. All the other Allied BL units are at least decent when used well, but the lack of good land artillery drags the entire faction down.

Edited July 1 by Pyrite