25% faster Nod vehicle build speed..? WOW

[X3M]

O nice. Video's that are important enough to be mentioned here.

But I have to wait till I get home from work.

Any way. One very important factor that most designers forget is the resource mechanics.

I think that C&C was designed for 1 to 2 loads per interval. Not 6 to 8 that you see on an average game.

This factor was also very important for my board game. I discovered that too much or to little income would mean a drastic change to the army components that players would choose.

Just as much as how you see all players go for 10 tanks instead of 80 rifle infantry. I already had this difference at a number less then $1000 for a comparable game. Best to design your resource mechanics first. Then look at the army size and design.

 

[X3M]

Wow. I have seen some answers from Joe. And it is odd to see that they tested things manually.

One of his first games where mechanically the same as one of mine. An artillery game that takes the data from the screen. Nice, very nice to know

He tested everything by watching it. Yet from my viewpoint, the game still looks well thought. Except for the Rocket Soldiers, hahaha. Which they forgot to test properly.

 

And that video on youtube. A fish is unaware of its water. That is true. But it is also true that the same fish might have ended up in sea while it started in a river at first. And with that, I mean that broodwar had a much easier editor to begin with. And those who edited in that editor. Also took a look at WC3 editor. And with that, the editors evolved into those you see with SC2 editor. The real profesionals. And let me tell you, they DO know how to alter game mechanics. It isn't just age of empires which could allow this.

Heck, even I made some sort of C&C style in broodwar. Where tanks where needed to quickly destroy armor yet did not much damage against infantry.

 

[dkeeton]

3 hours ago, X3M said:

And that video on youtube. A fish is unaware of its water. That is true. But it is also true that the same fish might have ended up in sea while it started in a river at first. And with that, I mean that broodwar had a much easier editor to begin with. And those who edited in that editor. Also took a look at WC3 editor. And with that, the editors evolved into those you see with SC2 editor. The real profesionals. And let me tell you, they DO know how to alter game mechanics. It isn't just age of empires which could allow this.

Heck, even I made some sort of C&C style in broodwar. Where tanks where needed to quickly destroy armor yet did not much damage against infantry.

The point of that "editor" commentary is that the AoE scenario editor is built in to the game and is meant to be part of the game. The Blizzard map editors are  external tools that the average player will never even be aware of.

His other videos on game design are interesting too.

[X3M]

So according to you, the average user that you know, never goes looking around.

Ouch.

Any way, I always made use of a lot of editors. Integrated or external. Doesn't matter. Maybe it is because I have a DOS history. Watching the options and so on (WC2).

The SC/BW editor has a basic integrated one. All the other blizzard games simply assume that the average user is smart enough to look around. But perhaps it is because the first games have the editors shown painfully clear in the open.

Now then, I think it is safely to assume that the average user of editors. Will not be aware of all the options in the editors. Especially when the editors become more like programming. That is something other users have more trouble with. (Unreal, WC3, but even more so, SC2)

Don't get me wrong. But changing mechanics is something different then changing stats only.

[AchromicWhite]

Well, I think that with the case of AoE the design was to just put it MORE in front of people.

You may very well find that you, X3M, are not your average user. And that you care more about the depth and quality of games, more than most.

[X3M]

5 hours ago, AchromicWhite said:

Well, I think that with the case of AoE the design was to just put it MORE in front of people.

You may very well find that you, X3M, are not your average user. And that you care more about the depth and quality of games, more than most.

True. So much actually that I compared a lot of RTS. Really a lot. Especially the retro ones.
Thank you for that comment

I wanted to talk about the communities that I know. And the editors etc. But I don't want to hyjack this topic.
In short, other game communities does have average users that look around. Unreal Tournament was the big one in this regard. I estimate a 10% got to editing.

[AchromicWhite]

1 hour ago, X3M said:

True. So much actually that I compared a lot of RTS. Really a lot. Especially the retro ones.
Thank you for that comment

I wanted to talk about the communities that I know. And the editors etc. But I don't want to hyjack this topic.
In short, other game communities does have average users that look around. Unreal Tournament was the big one in this regard. I estimate a 10% got to editing.

Sounds like an interesting topic. Feel free to open a thread on it.

I've been doing more testing. My numbers were wrong... stay tuned.

[X3M]

Of screen Dune 2 units where way slower then those that you viewed. Does the NOD airplane perhaps the same effect???

 

[cn2mc]

Not really possible, I think. Even with all of its exceptions, the cargo plane is a unit like every other. So its speed should be constant, and unlike helicopter-class aircraft, which can hover and land/take off in TD, it doesn't even have a (game-specific) reason to accelerate or decelerate. In theory the effect you mentioned should be reversed - the plane should slow down a bit on the descent towards the strip, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't do that either.

[X3M]

I asked, because no one studied it yet.

There is a big difference between an animation and watching objects.

Do know that in Dune 2 it ALWAYS happened with objects. I suspect that even projectiles had this effect. But I am not sure yet. I often look off screen to get the enemy move slower. And it just so happens that rockets seem like having a better chance in hitting their targets there.

I have no idea yet on how to test this properly.

 

[cn2mc]

I'm no programmer or anything and I've tested nothing of the sort, but I'm pretty sure that if what you're describing from Dune II was also in C&C it would've made multiplayer impossible because of constant synchronization errors. That's why I said it with such confidence, but I may still turn out to be partly or entirely wrong.

[X3M]

Now that is a very valid point you raised there. Can't argue with that.

I didn't think about the multiplayer aspect. That is a good reason. But then, I think that if it would happen. Glitches would have been noticed by now. One of the 2 players would see an unit appearing at the airfield. While the airplane didn't land yet. The other player would see the right event. It just depends on who looks first and how much time it would be between looking at the same airplane by both players.

To test this? I consider it impossible.

Has anyone figured out yet why so many disconnects happen?

[cn2mc]

If by disconnects you mean OOS, probably latency. When too many players from too many different parts of the world play, some with high ping, etc. there are much more opportunities for someone's game to miss a beat.

Any difference in object position should and would cause an instant OOS. The only thing that could possibly be different for players, IMO, is maybe infantry idle animations,  like I would see your men doing push-ups, while for you they would be just standing about... probably even that is synced and goes by game ticks though.