Is the 4-5 refinery build really a viable pro build?

[chem]

https://youtu.be/kC43-6Zz79M

Something that's on the same level as the 2 or 3 refinery build?

Obviously you are skipping the airfield/weapons factory till later and going  troops base creep and heli.

Is  it really as viable as the more common pro builds that use tanks buggies bikes etc? Or is it only something you can do if you have a skill advantage or as a specific counter to say a perceived threat like a heli rush, if you are close, or  on certain maps where its easy to spread out fast like green acres?

 

Since most people are building tanks and buggies am I right in presuming its usually an inferior build? Or at least just more difficult to pull off or a new skill set is needed to be able to pull it off?

 

 

Ive never ever seen any super pro use it against another super pro in a high level competition match. Love didn't use it against mr buggies, Mr Buggies didn't use it , Ferret didn't use it vs Love Handles and vice versa, etc etc, that suggests to me that its usually an inferior build?

Edited November 16, 2018 by chem

[chem]

Is it a cash grab strategy where you will likely never win with troops helis and creeps alone but you might be able to hold them off till you get an airfield/weapons factory, and then when you do you will have a better economy (at least long term not immediately ull  be completely spent but with many harvisters) more map control and a more diverse offence?

Edited November 16, 2018 by chem

[X3M]

I sometimes go even 6 red with 2 pow on ffa games as a gamble. 

 

Ps. Is it reeaaly you on the youtube?

Ps^2 trollololol!♤♡◇♧ ...really needing that raping partner 4fun on aow3 that is at least rape-level 10.

[chem]

16 minutes ago, X3M said:

I sometimes go even 6 red with 2 pow on ffa games as a gamble. 

 

Ps. Is it reeaaly you on the youtube?

Ps^2 trollololol!♤♡◇♧ ...really needing that raping partner 4fun on aow3 that is at least rape-level 10.

yea its me, Dan isn't my real name but I have loads of fake accounts all over the show , I have to dedicate myself to cnc1 and doom 2 as a 1st priority so I will always be a nub on aow, unless its better than cnc1, but im not sure if that's realistically possible? Will love to give you a team game on it though bro!

Edited November 17, 2018 by chem

[X3M]

I bet you too rape people in that game. As long as you are willing to be strategic with the upgrades. Once you start. I could give you pointers. Also, patience can be very, very powerful.

The pointers should remain private though. Since aow3 noobs might be lurking around for things they can't find out by themselves.

So, once you start. Give me your game name on this forum. Then I can explain every good choice.

[chem]

1 hour ago, X3M said:

I bet you too rape people in that game. As long as you are willing to be strategic with the upgrades. Once you start. I could give you pointers. Also, patience can be very, very powerful.

The pointers should remain private though. Since aow3 noobs might be lurking around for things they can't find out by themselves.

So, once you start. Give me your game name on this forum. Then I can explain every good choice.

Ok will do thanks for your generosity X3M! I know how valuable those edges can be to a competitive player.

[Ferret]

@X3M

That's me.

[X3M]

28 minutes ago, Ferret said:

@X3M

That's me.

 

I know it is you, in the video.

I was talking about Chem in YET another chat in the youtube community.

[Kampfkekskrieger]

I as for me priorize the 3-ref 2-power plants build, as being the best balance of both: you are a bit late for early vehicles, but strong enough with infantry to defend/harass, before the enemy defenses become meaningless for infantry.

I am a pretty good player, but caught to play with regular players, no idea, and not worth the cost, to hyperjump to turnament players that I look up to in the TV.

4-5 refineries are over the top, because you cannot spend your income without vehicle production, but can be still in-time if your early scouting determines, that the opponent is not buggy-rushing you, which can make your early infantry-defense inferior, even with large amounts of infantry. So if the opponent gives you the time with not-attacking, you can slip through with more refineries. And its a skill game, if you can get up with the vehicle production, with calculating that your late Weapon factory is also a popular target, just when its late-but-finally arrived, exactly then, its a vulnerable target. But there are mobs who count better than me?

Edited November 21, 2018 by Kampfkekskrieger

[X3M]

4 to 5 ref in a 1v1 on a money map doesn't work well. The other guy will rush you asap anyway. The risk is truly only worth in ffa.

[cn2mc]

5 is suicide against a good player. 4 might just be possible to pull off under certain circumstances, by base crawling and smothering the enemy with barracks perhaps. On smaller and more open maps even 3 ref builds are a bit of an overextension. So, yes, confine this to FFA gambles. No serious 1v1 player will leave you alone long enough for the income to kick in and let you get away with spending all your starting cash on refs without punishing you. My scouts seeing 3-4 refs in the enemy base at the start means I attack ASAP and I either scale down the economy or just tap them out if I went for a faster build or sent more scouts. 

[chem]

9 hours ago, cn2mc said:

5 is suicide against a good player. 4 might just be possible to pull off under certain circumstances, by base crawling and smothering the enemy with barracks perhaps. On smaller and more open maps even 3 ref builds are a bit of an overextension. So, yes, confine this to FFA gambles. No serious 1v1 player will leave you alone long enough for the income to kick in and let you get away with spending all your starting cash on refs without punishing you. My scouts seeing 3-4 refs in the enemy base at the start means I attack ASAP and I either scale down the economy or just tap them out if I went for a faster build or sent more scouts. 

Awesome thanks cn2mc bro that's just the answer I was looking for, Lovehandles said one time that he sometimes like s a 4-5 refinery build, I wonder what context he meant by that it was on green acres maybe that's one of the few maps where you can almost do a close range fight/smothering tactic because its so wide open and easy to sprawl on and kinda close sometimes. Thanks bro!!

[chem]

16 hours ago, Kampfkekskrieger said:

I as for me priorize the 3-ref 2-power plants build, as being the best balance of both: you are a bit late for early vehicles, but strong enough with infantry to defend/harass, before the enemy defenses become meaningless for infantry.

I am a pretty good player, but caught to play with regular players, no idea, and not worth the cost, to hyperjump to turnament players that I look up to in the TV. 

4-5 refineries are over the top, because you cannot spend your income without vehicle production, but can be still in-time if your early scouting determines, that the opponent is not buggy-rushing you, which can make your early infantry-defense inferior, even with large amounts of infantry. So if the opponent gives you the time with not-attacking, you can slip through with more refineries. And its a skill game, if you can get up with the vehicle production, with calculating that your late Weapon factory is also a popular target, just when its late-but-finally arrived, exactly then, its a vulnerable target. But there are mobs who count better than me?

That's what I found with experimentation, but im no troop expert skill wise, that's probably my weakest skill, so I couldn't determine if it was just me or the actual build. Thanks you know your cnc, who are you in the lobby bro, ive never seen such passion in the forums before, you're really into the remaster!

Edited November 22, 2018 by chem

[Kampfkekskrieger]

I am a master.
I want a proper game.
I didnt get one and I was starving for many years, not getting what I really looked for, nobody did entertain me to a least amount, it was okayish in earlier years, but its dropping, AND I (and I think many players) are getting more knowledge, than was possible 20 years ago about games, and hence raise their demands. I have a lot of experience developers need. And players dont understand games, only watching their surface, not getting a manual. You waste time refining them in this crooked relationship. It must stop.

I started to help Act of Aggression/Wargame, because no C&C was there. I did play tiberium wars with addon in multiplayer for a while and generals zero hour, getting impressed how much much better the players use the game to their advantage, but was very sad, that you didnt do much more out of it(also not taking the cash that was ready), and I could not grab in and improve little things that annoyed, like transports in generals didnt work so well with infantry like with Act of war, and since then, I wanted the same in C&C and thats obvious. Desyncs in Kanes wrath made me throw it from the earth virtually after a time of addiction, no MP world conquest.

I also observed in the last years actively, that the people dont seem to understand a game like Act of Aggression(count in various Strategy games I listed in the annoucement), struggeling with wargame, liking it, but not understanding its deeper innings, resulting in judging a thousands-feeter by the number of arms, and a ball upon its edges; I couldnt really believe how you cannot see how refined it is in its ideas, how much better playable, and why this is not in discussion.

Now, I am so sad about the state, its really a 'state' in constitutional consense, that leadership in a computergame is vanishing, with the players loosing a least amount of orientation, to see the hand in front of their eyes, if the subheading says its a ball.

Now, thanks for your interest, could have more of this...

So the Refinery trick is very clear: you do it quick(1), 'same'(all players... play 2), skilled (3), or more ( exploiting /slowering enemy advancement, e.g. with troops, helos, succesful aggressions). More skill more reward.

I LOVE to play infantry, because it has the same firepower like a tank gun, but you can have e.g. 5 grenadiers for the price of 1 tank, and they are so geniously versatile to use, press into every niche, distract the pure tanks, that are naked, and a bunch of helping infantry is SO cheap, and can distract a lot of guns from your tank HP.

Now that slippery infantry in TD/RA, never thought you could professionalize their use, but having read Frederic the Great, I started to care for real world circumstances in warfare to include into my playstyle. This theory is the key to make out of your troops, because you dont see advantages with just looking onto the pixelgraphics, that you can do maneuvres with them, and how advanced things work, more than basic attacking/defending... I think most people dont know more than 3 words and ways for it. boring. sad.

Furthermore, the games dont allow invested advanced tricking out the basic ways, favouring a lot the 'common' playstyle, not allowing creativity. And those RTS that Allow it, get thrown with tomatoes, see the astract in the announcement. Hence my goal is to relive those games, that are popular, but dead because they couldnt live in the world of cloudy folks, and technical incomprehenses/shortcomings in the industry, that dont seem to learn what is obvious for ordinary people. -> To their own damage!

Now, the time of sorry is over, Its important not to let the developers slip through lazy, but make them do proper games, listening to the people, and include the change in the pulse of time. I also have insight into developers. Both bleed. nobody wins. There is no leadership. Big powers fall of their position because they dont know the historical leadership, dont follow it, dont respect the rules of the earth. We want to give them power. They decide if they need any.

And RTS games are the key to regrow it.

I have to say it here, hence I was asked. Welcome in the Divinity, Commander (I like playing the comedian while talking)

Edited November 22, 2018 by Kampfkekskrieger

[Hetzer]

Link from the first post does not work.

I would really like to see this build - can you please report a working link to your channel?

[chem]

48 minutes ago, Hetzer said:

Link from the first post does not work.

I would really like to see this build - can you please report a working link to your channel?

 

I cant remember what video it was but some super pros go 4 refineries and several barracks and power plants like Lovehandles before the weapons factory, (I think) he sometimes even goes helis and no war factory if im not mistaken, this is a GDI build, Jacko also went 3 refineries and 1 heli pad before an airfield which was another super pro build that was with nod vs GDI.

 

 

Edited January 2, 2019 by chem

[Hetzer]

Thanks Chem! I also use 2 refs & 1 heli as NOD before airstrip (an apache can do wonders against an early gren rush, especially if caught in time to get 2-3 reloads between carnages). Still adjusting to multiplayer C&C games but I've caught some really interesting games so far and would like to see more.

Maybe you could share your channel link/some vids of pro NOD players to get some inspiration ?

[chem]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 7:17 AM, Hetzer said:

Thanks Chem! I also use 2 refs & 1 heli as NOD before airstrip (an apache can do wonders against an early gren rush, especially if caught in time to get 2-3 reloads between carnages). Still adjusting to multiplayer C&C games but I've caught some really interesting games so far and would like to see more.

Maybe you could share your channel link/some vids of pro NOD players to get some inspiration ?

 

Hi bro.

I haven't got a channel,  but im happy to help as best I can. 

Totally agree GDI naders are very potent and a single heli can cause GDI problems for 3 main reasons.

1) it counters the naders and kills them quite efficiently leaving only meds to deal with which is alot easier than when they are combined with naders, your flamers will also be made more potent as they have less naders to deal with

2) Many GDI players will likely panic and over produce on bazooka men /AA putting you in the lead economically.

3) Bazooka men are more expencive and slow and they will have to drag  them around with their med tanks/naders to fight you effectively if they cant base creep to you.

 

I will show you the videos/channels in game.  Its harder to find stuff for Nod. But Ive got some good ones

 

Cya soon we play online all the time. So not hard to find us give me a PM!

 

Take care bro

 

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by chem