Rock Paper Sissors, 1,2,3 Refineries?

[chem]

1 refinery beats 3 refinery builds (has the edge)

2 refinery beats 1 refinery builds ('')

3 refinery builds beat 2 refinery builds ('')

 

So under normal circumstances (not close range where the dynamic changes ) its like a rock paper scissors scenario with which build beats another, and you are just trying to guess what build they will use based on their habits?

((if they are of near equal skill) skill superiority triumphs regardless of build, and the highest % build is the 2 refinery build which is why the 3 refinery build became popular in the 1st place, its only really a high% guess/counter build? )

 

 

The more refineries you build the more you are buggered short term and bettered long term so that's why the 1 refinery build is a danger to a 3 refinery build? But the 2 refinery build beats a 1 refinery build because its close enough in timing to survive the early rush and it will be more likely to win long term due to extra funds. So really we all need to be practicing 1 2 and 3 refinery builds and switching it up each game?

 

Edited November 23, 2018 by chem

[AchromicWhite]

Depends on rush distance (length of cells between bases that units move over).

On Quarry, I would pretty much never play 1-2 refs, maybe even with Nod.

But also, you need to make production to spend the money you take in. Barracks/Hands are cheap and quick to produce, but grens are something you can spend more of your money on. So higher ref builds are usually better for GDI (IMO).

But there might be Nod builds where you can quickly switch into apaches, for example, to spend the extra credits.

[X3M]

This depends on the map imho.

But somehow I feel that you might be right for the first few minutes of the game. But later on, 3 refinery will have the upper hand.

[chem]

6 hours ago, X3M said:

This depends on the map imho.

But somehow I feel that you might be right for the first few minutes of the game. But later on, 3 refinery will have the upper hand.

Hmm so you think even with the big delay the 3 refinery build is still better off, this would be an average map an average distance for 1v1 not long not short longish. Just an average 1v1 map.

So the 3 refinery build would have to spend a lot of money on troops, defence structures, blocking structures and yea perhaps they can defend early then be better off late. I can see that.

What I cant see is  a 3 refinery build working against an all in conyard sell  with 1 refinery I think it would break the 3 refinery build? What do you think?

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by chem

[chem]

19 hours ago, AchromicWhite said:

Depends on rush distance (length of cells between bases that units move over).

On Quarry, I would pretty much never play 1-2 refs, maybe even with Nod.

But also, you need to make production to spend the money you take in. Barracks/Hands are cheap and quick to produce, but grens are something you can spend more of your money on. So higher ref builds are usually better for GDI (IMO).

But there might be Nod builds where you can quickly switch into apaches, for example, to spend the extra credits.

Thankyou White, what about a 1 refinery build with a conyard sell then surely theres no way the 3 refinery build can hold up to that? So  if they habitually do a 3 refinery build or you guess they will, sell up and go all in? (just an average map not anything with any unusual features or very specific design just a joe blogs map like green acres or a 1v1 on say  Zodiac opposite sides)

It seems a bit of a guessing game because you cant scout in time before you see what their build will be so you have to decide what your build will be before the game begins?

Its like the best two options seem like an extreme all in of some sort maximising speed unit production and money for units (not many refineries and not just buggies) extremely early, or a jack of all trades 2 refinery build,? (for most maps at least)

 

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2018 by chem

[Ferret]

Agreed. I would say this is very heavily map dependent question. On Blistering Sands for example, I would say a 2 Refinery build is probably the most safe and most optimal at the moment.

On different maps like HJK6 even, you can get away with a 4 Refinery build very easily simply because of how the map layout is. There's definitely more variables involved than a simple cookie-cutter build.

We could potentially get data involved and test maps individually and see what is possible, and what isn't, depending on what map you're playing on.

[chem]

2 hours ago, Ferret said:

Agreed. I would say this is very heavily map dependent question. On Blistering Sands for example, I would say a 2 Refinery build is probably the most safe and most optimal at the moment.

On different maps like HJK6 even, you can get away with a 4 Refinery build very easily simply because of how the map layout is. There's definitely more variables involved than a simple cookie-cutter build.

We could potentially get data involved and test maps individually and see what is possible, and what isn't, depending on what map you're playing on.

Thanks Ferret bro, I will give it some testing next time I have some 1v1's with someone close in skill, someone like speedy dash would probably be down for that, hes getting damn good as of late

Edited November 30, 2018 by chem

[X3M]

Selling the conyard will certainly make a rush stronger. I suppose we should look at a 10k starting cash. This would be 12.5k and perhaps a free engineer as well. That is a plus 34 percent, given that you wanted that engineer.

The question is. Infantry only, or a factory as well? A factory takes too long to build. In the same time, multiple barracks could be added. 

On the smallest maps, a whole all in infantry army is possible. Did you take that in account?

[AchromicWhite]

With a 3 ref build you can still follow up with base defences to hold... that's the thing about con yard selling. You're ACTUALLY 100% all-in.
If you keep the con, then even if the rush fails, you can have made more refs behind it.

So if you know they sold con, you can spam defences and change the whole situation. I think rushes are easier to hold with GDI, because of grens, but it might just be that I don't know Nod that well.

[X3M]

Chem cannot receive messages. Awww. This issue is totally different in AoW3. But very valid there as well.

@AchromicWhite
Besides of grenadiers, a couple of guard towers would seal the deal, no?

[AchromicWhite]

On 12/10/2018 at 6:35 AM, X3M said:

Chem cannot receive messages. Awww. This issue is totally different in AoW3. But very valid there as well.

@AchromicWhite
Besides of grenadiers, a couple of guard towers would seal the deal, no?

It's map dependant, for both placement and rush distance.