mk behavior #3

[Sol]

Yo guys.
So as you know I have "initiated" the recent reverse of the patch to units behavior.
After a couple of weeks playing with these changes and talking to lots of other people I have realized this MIGHT have been a mistake.
From the start I said that I liked the changes to all units except the mk. I still believe the first part, though I am not sure anymore if the mk is any better right now.

What bothered me about the patch with mks was:
1. you could "pre-charge" your mk by force firing the ground in your base, so it would target the closest enemy unit when being dropped (not such a big deal, as you could put it on guard mode or shoot one of your own inf from what I've been told)
2. fighting vs titans required significantly less micro. Because as long as the mks last input before being picked up was to shoot something, it will pretty much target the closest titan as soon as being dropped (even with mediocre micro you could easily win vs 5-6 titans)
3. the mk would shoot automatically sometimes and randomly retarget shit, shooting down carries (which still happens as it turns out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2NkaIvEFho)

With #3 still happening and #1 not being a big deal (imo), this just leaves #2. It arguably buffs GDI, although those kinds of battles dont really take place as much in GDI vs Nod. It definately makes the mk more valuable and easier to use in GDI v GDI.

The problem is that me and other people feel like the mk still doesnt behave like in the original game or at the start of cncnet. Mostly it is walking. All the time. Constantly walking. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW8_PZG-MAk&t=718s
I've done some tests, problem is that the tests that required timing have different results in offline mode vs low ping vs high ping.
The results are:
As long as you fire along the straight edges of the tiles (diagonally on the screen) and the mk is standing on the ground, it can shoot a target that is up to 7 tiles away. If the target is more than 5 tiles away though, after the shot the mk will walk (1-2 tiles) towards it, so that its only 5 tiles away, UNLESS that shot killed whatever you targeted. Meaning that if you told your carry to pick the mk up it just wont do it because the mk moves.
In offline mode you could stop the mk from moving if you pressed "S" (stop key) right after shooting, this didnt seem to work reliably at low ping though.
On low ping you could stop the mk from walking if you managed to get the shot off very very shortly before the carry picks it up: https://youtu.be/RKliWE8xvUc

I personally don't remember the mk walking like this before I quit last time (2015). But I also can't say for sure the mechanics I just tested would be different with the patch that was reversed.

SOOOOOOOOO... obviously this is a complicated issue that doesnt have a quick fix. I think most people agree that neither situation is satisfying (mk 2ez with patch, mk 2 stupid without it).
My big hope now is that we could somehow get to test not just the current version, but also
1. the original TS, as it was when cncnet came out
2. the version from a couple of weeks ago, with the patch

Because with the knowledge I have now I probably would not have advocated for the reversing of the patch, which I am sorry for
I really dont want to suggest changes again without knowing all the implications, but the current situation is problematic.

GREETINGS.
SOL xoxo

Edited April 5, 2019 by Sol

[9LivesCatFood]

I'm pretty sure the mammoth walks forward after shooting because of its mammoth tusk rocket weapon range. when i made a mod infantry that could shoot two alternate weapons it had this problem. it would first fire its longer range weapon and then stop firing and walk forward and then proceed to use its shorter range weapon. if you disabled mammoth tusk rocket anti air weapon it would probably not walk forward like that or change the range of the mammoth tusk to the same range as the railgun weapon. That would probably fix the walking bug.

Edited April 5, 2019 by 9LivesCatFood

[dkeeton]

1 hour ago, Sol said:

The problem is that me and other people feel like the mk still doesnt behave like in the original game or at the start of cncnet.

You're wrong.

[9LivesCatFood]

13 minutes ago, dkeeton said:

You're wrong.

you said the harvester wasnt changed but it harvests all by itself when its built from the war factory. idk about the mammoth tho but whatever yall did to the harvester if it was on a global unit behavior change level maybe it affected mammy too idk tho.

[dkeeton]

12 minutes ago, 9LivesCatFood said:

you said the harvester wasnt changed but it harvests all by itself when its built from the war factory. idk about the mammoth tho but whatever yall did to the harvester if it was on a global unit behavior change level maybe it affected mammy too idk tho.

You're confused because you aren't good at brain thinking.

[9LivesCatFood]

21 minutes ago, dkeeton said:

You're confused because you aren't good at brain thinking.

you still think the harvesters are supposed to auto harvest when built from the war factory in tiberian sun? I think it's time you go install a original copy of Tiberian Sun. Cause it's not supposed to do that normally. You should go see for yourself. I usually play Tiberian Sun not distributed by cncnet so i know very well of this change.

Edited April 5, 2019 by 9LivesCatFood

[dkeeton]

14 minutes ago, 9LivesCatFood said:

you still think the harvesters are supposed to auto harv when built from the war factory in tiberian sun? I think it's time you go install  a original copy of Tiberian Sun. Cause it's not supposed to do that normally. You should go see for yourself.

Harvesters traditionally automatically harvest when they are built in any other way than the war factory.

Do you think the change has to do with Harvesters or Warfactories?

[9LivesCatFood]

23 minutes ago, dkeeton said:

Harvesters traditionally automatically harvest when they are built in any other way than the war factory.

Do you think the change has to do with Harvesters or Warfactories?

Traditionally in other C&C games yes. Tiberian Sun is different. Your assumptions are wrong. Tiberian Sun didn't have harvesters that could automatically harvest on cncnet until rather recently maybe a year ago they started doing it. Get a copy of Tiberian Sun not run through a client and distributed before cncnet and you will see like I do every day when I play Tiberian Sun, lol. Here you go ill make it easy:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=129e2Eq2jXT-3es-QFncb7TMvHhOeeETg

 

or just watch this video:

https://youtu.be/zD9nPC7FdOs?t=171

https://youtu.be/dSINXMyPtwM?t=234

Edited April 5, 2019 by 9LivesCatFood

[dkeeton]

33 minutes ago, 9LivesCatFood said:

Traditionally in other C&C games yes. Tiberian Sun is different. Your assumptions are wrong. Tiberian Sun didn't have harvesters that could automatically harvest on cncnet until rather recently maybe a year ago they started doing it. Get a copy of Tiberian Sun not run through a client and distributed before cncnet and you will see like I do every day when I play Tiberian Sun, lol. Here you go ill make it easy:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=129e2Eq2jXT-3es-QFncb7TMvHhOeeETg

 

or just watch this video:

https://youtu.be/zD9nPC7FdOs?t=171

https://youtu.be/dSINXMyPtwM?t=234

Watch how this harvester automatically harvests when the player places the refinery:

https://youtu.be/--aJCf32Z9I?t=37

Yes, War factories were changed to allow them to be more like refineries.

[9LivesCatFood]

Here I fixed the mammoth walking after shooting. Place the rules.ini file in the game's root directory:

D:\Games\CnCNet\TiberianSun_Online

The reason why the mammoth shoots and then walks forward and shoots again is because the primary weapon is [MammothTusk] and not [MechRailgun].

Here is how it was:

; Mammoth Mk. II
[HMEC]
Name=Mammoth Mk.II
Prerequisite=GAWEAP,GATECH
Primary=MammothTusk
Secondary=MechRailgun

This was the change I made:

; Mammoth Mk. II
[HMEC]
Name=Mammoth Mk.II
Prerequisite=GAWEAP,GATECH
Primary=MechRailgun
Secondary=MammothTusk

The [MammothTusk] has a shorter range of "6" than the [MechRailgun] range of "8" so what happens is the primary weapon has a shorter range. when you tell the mammoth to shoot something it's actually telling the primary weapon aka [MammothTusk] missiles to attack the target. if you remove the primary weapon you cant even make the mammoth force fire. anyway. when you tell the mammoth mkII to shoot farther than "6" range it will shoot the longer range [MechRailgun] "8" and then proceed to walk closer to "6" range to fire again.

;Mammoth Rail Gun
[MechRailgun]
AmbientDamage=200    ; use this for the railgun damage field.  Leave damage = 0
Damage=0            ; this should be 0 for railgun shots
ROF=60        ; ROF for railgun is tied to the duration (MaxEC) of the railgun particle
Range=8

; Vehicle carried anti-tank missile
[MammothTusk]
Damage=40
ROF=80
Range=6

 

rules.ini

Edited April 5, 2019 by 9LivesCatFood

[Humble]

1.  I personally liked the way the patch (that was reverted recently) prevented rocket infantry and hover mlrs from targetting aircraft and chasing it across the map just to shoot it once and run all the way back.  It was a really big help for nod players who depend on rockets for defense and allowed them to spend their precious APM on more important matters than constantly re-correcting their rockets.  I also think the side-effect of it buffing the MKII was negligible compared to the benefits.  The only real drawback in the patch in my opinion was no longer being able to fake out anti scouts, because they would re-target, but that is really not that big of a deal IMO.

2. I just tested Mecha's suggestion for preventing the MKII from walking after it's first shot, and it indeed works.  Good idea Mecha.

This fix is included in latest Vet./Bal. patch.

3. I think it would be nice if the primary/default MKII weapon was swapped in the rules.ini file globally, to prevent the 'walking issue'.

4. I still think the (reverted) patch should be re-applied, as the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.

5. As Sol mentioned, the main difference would be apparent in GDI Vs. GDI battles, as MKII Vs. Titans.  This would affect both players equally, giving both the same opportunity.

6. It would not affect GDI Vs. NOD much, because it is not often you see people doing tick tank rushes, and MKII can 1 shot bikes.

[9LivesCatFood]

it seems like mammoth tusk was designed for the original mammoth tank that can shoot rockets as a anti tank weapon. The range of 6 is more in line with the tiberian dawn mammoth tank that is in tiberian sun which cannon has a range of 6.75 and also uses the tusk weapon:

; Mammoth tank
[4TNK]
Name=Mammoth Tank
Category=AFV
TargetLaser=yes
Primary=120mmx
Secondary=MammothTusk

; large anti-armor cannon (two shooter)
[120mmx]
Damage=50
ROF=80
Range=6.75
Projectile=Cannon
Speed=40
Warhead=AP
Report=120MMX9
Anim=GUNFIRE
Burst=2
Bright=yes

https://youtu.be/kpk7ONjILWM?t=1227

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBqv2iHHcac

 

some people may think the mkii railgun range was increased if you patch it so it doesnt walk forward anymore and itll be hella good at sniping from long range without having to tell it to stop moving forward suicidally towards a group of titans youre sniping

 

This is titan's gun:

; large anti-armor cannon (single shooter)
[120mm]
Damage=70
ROF=80
Range=6.75
Projectile=Invisible
Speed=90
Warhead=AP
Report=120MMF
Anim=GUNFIRE
Bright=yes

It has a 1.25 less range than MKII railgun. But people already snipe them with mammy it's just harder for people to do who don't know about its range glitch.

Edited April 5, 2019 by 9LivesCatFood

[Humble]

As Sol pointed out, the 'S' key doesn't consistently work in online play, so the walking is a big problem even for people that know about it.

[Sol]

9 hours ago, dkeeton said:

You're wrong.

I almost expected that... but am I wrong that this behavior does not happen with the patch? That would mean we just got used to it.

[9LivesCatFood]

1 hour ago, Sol said:

I almost expected that... but am I wrong that this behavior does not happen with the patch? That would mean we just got used to it.

im pretty sure they just changed a unit stance variable in the rules. a very simple change i remember seeing it a long time ago. im too lazy to find it all. There was no reason to revert it since it was clearly a bug on westwood's behalf. This is all too much effort to deal with honestly. it's probably best that they don't change anything. its like pulling teeth. there's a lot of very VERY minor changes they should have fixed by now like the rpg tower facing the wrong way on tundra maps.  they made some good changes like disabling a lot of trainer cheats and fixing network lag issues but beyond that theyve gotten pretty useless. the people demanding it be bugged so they can have more fun mkii carryall fights is hilariously dumb to be honest. wanting everything to be dysfunctional and broken  because thats what theyre used to...

Edited April 5, 2019 by 9LivesCatFood

[Sol]

weeeeeeeeeeell with the change the mk is brokenly overpowered though, thats why i dont think its a "minor" change

[9LivesCatFood]

i think its best they leave the game broken and full of bugs at this point to be honest. its playable currently. it could be better but it doesnt really matter.

Edited April 5, 2019 by 9LivesCatFood

[9LivesCatFood]

oops

Edited April 5, 2019 by 9LivesCatFood

[Tibermach]

mk is already a tuff nut to crack for nod as it is, please dont buff it more...

 

why dont TS forum have a community balance patch post for these changes so we not left guessing like they do for c&c 1 or do they?... and just keep the original and have the option for all the buffs etc? 

can you get a tick box to enable auto retarget?

 

can you put everything on auto retarget then just take the mk off auto retarget but change the primary weapon so it doesnt walk forward? i dunno lol

but yeh the mk always did walk originally then right  ? 

 

[Humble]

As far as 'balance patch' goes, the vet/bal. patch changes are all listed on the discord channel in a txt file.

https://discord.gg/kHc5R8n

The 'glitch patches' released by CNCNET are un-related.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Humble

[KHANIVORE]

TS was better before any of the changes made. its annoying to even get on sometimes and have 18 diff versions of vet shit, stuff changed, dumb edited maps. they've only annoyed me with all of these changes, versus ts I was used to for 20 years.

[Humble]

Personally I am really happy it is a lot harder for people to cheat on CNCNET, especially all the weird glitches like turning EMP off and such.  N1

Edited April 7, 2019 by Humble

[KHANIVORE]

fixing stuff like that is different. that's not what I meant and you know that lol

 

[Tibermach]

every change begets another glitch... will never get used to cc being changed and the extra glitches on elevations that it causes when u mess with its fire...

 

its cool to try these things as optional but i always revert back to original, its a proper game then

 

with every change you make you limit or effect another area of the game, example the auto re-target kills the scouting/anti scout mirco game

example speed up cc fire to help kill tits / moving objects (cc isnt a tit killer OG) and GS will never outrun a CC shot again...  theres always a collateral issue in the bigger picture

[9LivesCatFood]

units being stuck targeting and chasing out of range units was a bug that should be fixed. its kinda like not fixing original starcraft's crappy pathfinding because people are used to it and dont want to change it now. we would never deliberately see a new game make it broken tho. its not a good thing we are just used to it. it really is dumb to keep it so broken tho... but yes its arguable that you can patch the game more and more and no longer recognize it but that would be hard like rebalancing units with different stats. the game felt very downgraded after they reverted the targeting problem.