Autocreate vs Create Team

[Stalkz]

Hello,

 

Making my first Tiberian Dawn map and I am just fixing up a few remaining things with it before it is unleashed to you unfortunate souls.

 

My question concerns the difference between the two events in the subject line. My guess from test running the map is that create team bunches together a selection of units that the AI already has available on the map whereas autocreate makes them appear like reinforcements.

 

Am I correct or talking rubbish?

[MattAttack]

excellent...

'create team' will recruit existing units on the map FIRST to create the team, and then when units for the team are unavailable, will build them.  Keep in mind tweaking the 'u1' (as it's referred to in xcc editor) because sometimes you'll send a team off to reak havoc and then some of the units will be recruited into another team.  I think the 'link logic' bit has something to do with this too.  there's some kind of relationship between those two things.

'autocreate' as far as I remember, will build the teams at random (much too infrequently for my taste) and not recruit from existing units, but I may be wrong on that one. 

 

What I really like to do to randomize stuff is to link it to 'built it triggers.' i.e. everytime I build a powerplant, the enemy will send out a certain team.  Cell triggers and the 'attacked' triggers are good for that too.

 

Can't wait to try the mission!

[Stalkz]

Yeah i'd actually thought of having the enemy send a group of units to the local tiberium field upon construction of certain buildings but I couldn't figure out how to link a built it trigger to a structure that I hadn't placed on the map already - the base you use is also somewhat already constructed albeit damaged as you have to move to it from another part of the map. The stock campaign missions seemed to rely heavily on game time based triggers for sending units to attack so I went with that.

 

Using time based triggers didn't seem to work however, it sent the correct units but they all came rushing towards me at once rather than small groups over time. If what you are saying is the U: option actually defines a team much like if we were to create one ourselves (CTRL+#) then I had set them all to U15 like the default missions which might explain that.

 

The way I interpreted westwood's own methods is that it has a specific number of teams that it sends one after the other with specified units, growing in strength as the player progresses with their base construction. Then after these teams have been sent (usually gdi1, gdi2, etc.) it has another spread of teams (auto#) which then make up the rest of the game's attacks until the mission is finished. Am I also right in saying that the naming of these auto teams are important to their function otherwise they wouldn't consistently be sent out?

[MattAttack]

Yeah i'd actually thought of having the enemy send a group of units to the local tiberium field upon construction of certain buildings but I couldn't figure out how to link a built it trigger to a structure that I hadn't placed on the map already - the base you use is also somewhat already constructed albeit damaged as you have to move to it from another part of the map. The stock campaign missions seemed to rely heavily on game time based triggers for sending units to attack so I went with that.

 

 

okay, this part first.  Let's say I'm Goodguy. 

everytime I build a barracks, a team gets built by the enemy. Naturally, their 'production' trigger has been activated, yes?

 

[Triggers]

trig=built it,create team,15,goodguy,test,2

 

So, I (Goodguy) built the barracks (15).  The enemy builds team 'test' (which must belong to badguy, or whatever)  And the 2 at the end means every single time I build a barracks, that team gets made.  Set to '0' if it only occurs once.  I forget if '1' works or not. 

 

I'm pretty sure if you reveal one of your own buildings from the shroud, this counts as 'built it' also since you unfortunately can't seem to 'discover' your own stuff, I think....

 

This kind of stuff doesn't always work, though and much to my dismay, I cannot get the enemy to start production based on me building my CY   some conflict of ownership, I think.

 

Using time based triggers didn't seem to work however, it sent the correct units but they all came rushing towards me at once rather than small groups over time. If what you are saying is the U: option actually defines a team much like if we were to create one ourselves (CTRL+#) then I had set them all to U15 like the default missions which might explain that.

 

Yeah, this stuff is all speculation.  These days, I think the higher the # the higher the priority.  Units from a 15 wont be drafted into a 7, but a 7 will be drafted into a 15, or something like that.  When in doubt, use 20, although they won't retaliate against attack as quickly, iirc.  Again, that 'link logic' bit will often fix stuff, but it's still kind of a mystery.

 

The way I interpreted westwood's own methods is that it has a specific number of teams that it sends one after the other with specified units, growing in strength as the player progresses with their base construction. Then after these teams have been sent (usually gdi1, gdi2, etc.) it has another spread of teams (auto#) which then make up the rest of the game's attacks until the mission is finished. Am I also right in saying that the naming of these auto teams are important to their function otherwise they wouldn't consistently be sent out?

 

That all sounds pretty much right, although I think autocreate kind of sucks.  It seems to send out some teams every 150-200 time units or so and usually only the first 2-3 teams listed in the [teamtypes] section.  It has its uses and is still worth getting going to mix it up even more.  Just make sure the autocreate bit is on in the teamtype and # of teams is at least set to '1'

As for the Westwood maps, they had a far greater understanding to the interplay between these variables, stuff happening on the map, and the terrain than we do.  I think after 20 years or so, the campaigns are too easy and the enemy doesn't attack enough after the initial wave.

[Stalkz]

I see, so you're saying that in the first example you gave the 'value' should be set to 15 so that it interprets the trigger as a built barracks? If so, where could I find a list to the whole selection? Also I think '1' in the loop options is used in certain circumstances i.e if GDI get air strike from destroying all SAM-Sites (This is the example Nyerguds gave).

 

I'm not really fussed having the buildings belong to me initially even if I can't see them until revealing them, and if revealing certain buildings from the shroud registers them as built then that will work perfectly. To get this feature I pretty much copied Westwood's method found in GDI Map5wa (I think) and although it works in my map perfectly - I have absolutely no idea how a 'dstrytrig xxxx" or whatever it is called means that buildings are hidden until discovered.

 

It might be because you don't 'build' your CY as such since it's just deployed, although if it can register buildings simply being revealed from shroud as 'built' then I would also think it would be capable of the former. Oh well. If you wanted to have a fast attack you could place enemy units at opposite end of the map from where the CY gets deployed and issue them a command to attack at a certain time or just set them to hunt automatically.

 

The whole teams thing still confuses me a lot so it's going to take some messing around and reading to get it right and understand it. I'd love a Starcraft campaign editor style type editor for the C&C series, it was so easy to use.

 

On the topic of difficulty, I think at the moment whilst I wasn't looking to create any super hard maps - I will probably upload on these forums and then ask for some opinions on where it could be improved, difficulty or otherwise. If people play it though.

 

 

[MattAttack]

I see, so you're saying that in the first example you gave the 'value' should be set to 15 so that it interprets the trigger as a built barracks? If so, where could I find a list to the whole selection? Also I think '1' in the loop options is used in certain circumstances i.e if GDI get air strike from destroying all SAM-Sites (This is the example Nyerguds gave).

Please tell me you know about nyer's ccmanual... the building id #s are there under the 'triggers' section.  just in case:

http://nyerguds.arsaneus-design.com/cncstuff/cctxt/ccmanual.txt

 

as far as the 0,1 and 2 each type of trigger reacts differently.  Just like trigger owner, it takes a lot of experimentation to see what is appropriate for each trigger.  You're definitely on the right track if you're going through the WW .ini's.

 

 

It might be because you don't 'build' your CY as such since it's just deployed, although if it can register buildings simply being revealed from shroud as 'built' then I would also think it would be capable of the former. Oh well. If you wanted to have a fast attack you could place enemy units at opposite end of the map from where the CY gets deployed and issue them a command to attack at a certain time or just set them to hunt automatically.

 

I can get the CY deploying to activate other triggers, just not enemy production. 

 

 

On the topic of difficulty, I think at the moment whilst I wasn't looking to create any super hard maps - I will probably upload on these forums and then ask for some opinions on where it could be improved, difficulty or otherwise. If people play it though.

 

I'll gladly try your map!  It'd be nice if I wasn't the only person making SP maps

[cn2mc]

To get this feature I pretty much copied Westwood's method found in GDI Map5wa (I think) and although it works in my map perfectly - I have absolutely no idea how a 'dstrytrig xxxx" or whatever it is called means that buildings are hidden until discovered.

 

It doesn't mean that. Buildings not being active until seen by a unit is hardcoded in the game (although you can still use H to find where the CY is, if there is one). The xxxx trigger is probably a lose trigger for you if you lose all your units before you find your base, but I might be wrong. I never tried it, but I suspect that if you make a lose trigger that activates by the all destroyed event and you still have undiscovered structures when you lose your initial force, maybe you won't lose...

 

As far as the OP goes, there are a few variables in the long string of numbers for teamtypes, which determine whether a team is on the autocreate list (if not, it won't be built), whether the AI will keep a spare team of the same kind at its base, and whether it will replace lost units if the team is still active. Check those out in the ccmanual file and experiment. It's better to try out your triggers on a small test map to save time.

[MattAttack]

I'm not really fussed having the buildings belong to me initially even if I can't see them until revealing them, and if revealing certain buildings from the shroud registers them as built then that will work perfectly. To get this feature I pretty much copied Westwood's method found in GDI Map5wa (I think) and although it works in my map perfectly - I have absolutely no idea how a 'dstrytrig xxxx" or whatever it is called means that buildings are hidden until discovered.

 

whoops forgot that one...

XXXX, YYYY, & ZZZZ are the same as any other triggers, EXCEPT that you may get rid of them by fulfilling the 'destroy xxxx/y/z' trigger.  The best example in the game would be computer airstrikes caused by a repeating XXXX trigger.  Destroying the comm center is linked to 'destroy trigger xxxx.' Therefore destroying the comm center ends the airstrikes.  You can use them for all kinds of other fun stuff, too.  Maybe the computer will keep sending a particular team to harass you until you enter a certain cell or build a certain building or destroy a certain number of units.

[Jacko]

destroy commonication centre "x" to stop enemy backup?

RA did that if you  remember, although mapping in RA is slightly easier (and I'm still dumb with it)

[MattAttack]

oh yeah.. duh.. the most important answer to this topic is that autocreate can only be activated once (and teams will produced at 'random'), while create team can be triggered ad infinitum. (and specific teams will be created when specific conditions are met.)

[Stalkz]

Thanks for your input guys.

 

I don't suppose it's possible to stop the AI going haywire when their harvesters are attacked? I've got a kind of split map a-la Nod12 going and the poor harvesters might endure a bit of harm which causes difficulties for the second lot of units over the other side of the river.

[MattAttack]

The AI is going to freak out if you attack their harvesters no matter what.  With the only exception being if you were replacing mission 1 or 2 from the original campaigns (scg01ea, scb02eb, etc.)  where they have more of a tendency to ignore such things.  The campaigns apparently have stuff like that hardcoded into them.  Interestingly enough, at that level they won't repair structures until their nearly destroyed, either.  So again, the short answer is no, there's nothing you can do about that .

[cn2mc]

Well, actually... attacking the harv with air units or defence towers does not trigger the all to hunt event.

[Nyerguds]

'autocreate' as far as I remember, will build the teams at random (much too infrequently for my taste) and not recruit from existing units, but I may be wrong on that one.

You contradict yourself there. Specifically, the "build the teams" bit.

 

Creating teams is completely unrelated to the AI creating units. Creation of units is controlled purely by the "keep X of this team's units in reserve" property on the teamtype. Even if the team is never, ever mentioned in any trigger, that will cause the units in it to be built. At least, if the specified amount of recruitable units aren't already available on the map.

 

The "Autocreate" trigger autocreates teams, not the units in them. It does not affect the existing principles of unit and team creation, so, yes, autocreated teams will also recruit from preplaced map units.

 

 

 

Also note that Autocreate is a property of the teamtypes (see my guide). Only the teamtypes that have this property enabled will be Autocreated.

[MattAttack]

thank you for the clarification.  guess I should've said 'create the teams.'  however, I guess I had always observed the cpu building the units since usually by the time 'autocreate' was activated, I had smoked all the available recruitable units on the map.  I guess that's why the computer always builds extras, eh?

[Nyerguds]

Yeah, the computer keeps building units until those spares specified in the teamtypes are met.

 

'create team' will recruit existing units on the map FIRST to create the team, and then when units for the team are unavailable, will build them.

This is not really correct either, by the way, for the same reason. If you specify a team to always need 3 spares around, it'll build them even if the map already has enough units to make the team twice over.

 

It's really a quite elegant system. You have to look deeper into that piece about the numbers on the teamtypes to get this stuff right, though.

 

Note that I have no idea how this works with overlap between teams; no idea if each adds units to the "required amount on the map" or if common units would remain "shared" between teamtypes until teams are actually created. Though it would make more sense to be the first, since the system is meant to ensure there are enough units for the creation of all teams.

[MattAttack]

This is not really correct either, by the way, for the same reason. If you specify a team to always need 3 spares around, it'll build them even if the map already has enough units to make the team twice over.

 

It's really a quite elegant system. You have to look deeper into that piece about the numbers on the teamtypes to get this stuff right, though.

 

I'm intrigued... which piece and to which numbers do you refer too?  I really want to understand all of this stuff.  Surely not THE ccmanual? I've read that thing a thousand times and gleaned as much as possible from it....  Have you actually PLAYED any of the missions I've made?

 

 

Note that I have no idea how this works with overlap between teams; no idea if each adds units to the "required amount on the map" or if common units would remain "shared" between teamtypes until teams are actually created. Though it would make more sense to be the first, since the system is meant to ensure there are enough units for the creation of all teams.

If I understand you correctly, the answer is any extra units 'built' are drafted into the next demand of the 'create team' or whatever, although I've fiddled with the last couple of 0's and 1's in the teamtype to lessen the amount of infantry loitering around the barracks/hand.  there may be 15 teams of minigunners on the table, but it will still only build a couple in reserve.  Damn, now there's like 42 more experiments I have to conduct.

I still intend to amend the ccmanual.txt but of course I'll send you my changes first so you can rip all my theories a new one.. lol

 

 

[Nyerguds]

what, you missed this whole part? I mean the a-b-c-d-e-f-g-h-i stuff. O_o

 

==============
2.14 TEAMTYPES
==============
Probably the most complicated part of the INI files. This part contains
a lot of unknown things. You can use some default combinations though. 
See EXAMPLES.

Syntax:
        tanks=GoodGuy,1,0,0,1,0,15,1,0,0,2,E6:5,APC:1,2,Move:5,Guard:30,0,0
        ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^ ^
          1      2   [a b c d e f  g h i]4     5      6        7        8 9

1: teamname, defined in the TRIGGER section (place 6)
2: owner
3: Combination of numbers, always 9 of them.
   I've called them a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h and i. This is what they mean:
- a: Seems to act something like the "X" key, but links and unlinks the
      team members logically as well as physically. 1=on.
- c: I believe to be a toggle for the "ALT" key. 1=on.
- d: Enables Autocreate for this teamtype.
- f: I have no idea. Changing it at random has no discernible effects.
      But note that in Westwood's .INI's there is a strong correlation
      between this number and the team's build/tech level.
- g: The number of teams of this type that will act concurrently (i.e.,
      x,x,x,x,x,x,5,x,x,1,E2:3,1,move:2,0,0 will get you 15 grenadiers at
      waypoint 2). When this number is greater than zero, it will cause the
      team to be produced, regardless of any trigger.
- b, e, h and i don't seem to have any function at all.

To make this easier, I suggest you use the following 'templates':
    -> CREATE TEAM:  (will be "autocreated")
        1,0,0,1,0,15,1,0,0,
    -> REINFORCE. by APC, Chinook, hovercraft, or units coming out of the
       edge of the map:
        0,0,0,0,0,7,0,0,0,
    -> REINFORCE. by A10 airstrike:
        1,0,0,0,0,7,0,0,0,

 

Ah, seems I was wrong about the multiplier (g); it actually multiplies the acting team, not just the units kept in reserve for it.

 

The "f" number was actually researched on the tiberiumweb forum a while ago, and was something like a degree of independent action allowed for the team.

[MattAttack]

again,,, have you played any of my missions? don't get me started on 'g' without 'd'.. you can actually punish players for loading savegames with that one......

[Nyerguds]

I think I played a couple, but I'm not really sure why you're asking. It's not like I research the triggers of any mission I play. I was just answering your "which piece and which numbers do you refer to?" question.

[MattAttack]

The "f" number was actually researched on the tiberiumweb forum a while ago, and was something like a degree of independent action allowed for the team.

oh don't get me started on 'F' (u1) lol

 

 

[Kilkakon]

Yeah I concede even after all the maps I've made I still don't understand AI properly. I end up having to put in reoccuring Hunt triggers to force autocreate teams to move. The current map I'm stuck on, one of the contest maps, has really poor AI that sits around doing nothing despite my best efforts

 

Mysterious TD AI...

[MattAttack]

fun fact: it appears the maximum amount of triggers allowed in a .ini is 40! I'm only up to about 32 teams, but I'm guessing there's a similar maximum to that, too

[Nyerguds]

....that is a gigantic amount of teams. Why on earth would you need that many?!

[MattAttack]

I'm making a map for kilkakon's mod and (I think you're already aware) there are several houses involved.  I usually try to keep my missions under the 15k limit so they can even be played with dos c&c, but since his mod requires 1.06 and since there are no such constraints, I was trying to use all the tricks in my bag.... Units that come off of LSTs and activate celltriggers to move, helicopter attacks, airstrike superweapon, stacked built it triggers, etc.  Also It's several of the factions vs. you so you have multiple prod trigs, autocreate trigs, blah blah blah.  I even found a way to have enemy helicopters fly onscreen, attack you and *appear* to fly off of the screen.  I finally tested it and it's sheer madness, but for the most part, it all worked!  But once again, I hit some sort of cap in this game and had to work around it, but sometimes that's part of the fun!

 

The mod and the map are [glow=red,2,300]WORKS IN PROGRESS[/glow], but here's just a taste of what I'm doing:

(it's not going to be this crazy in the end, I was making sure my teams worked)

 

https://youtu.be/QJx6bM5Cv4c