X3M Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 So yesterday I played a game where the tech level was only 3. I played NOD, and my opponent had GDI. He hosted it. A money map with only 1 entrance to the base of the other player. Protected by walls too! When playing on tech level 3, I thought NOD could build buggies. But it surprised me that I couldn't. My only options where the Recon Bike, Light Tank and Harvester. Is it somewhat different on cncnet regarding tech levels? Or was this a modded map? Is it even possible to mod maps in tiberian dawn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cn2mc Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Buggies come later in the tech tree than bikes. Bikes come at the same tech that GDI gets hummers. Buggies are the tech level above that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X3M Posted January 5, 2018 Author Share Posted January 5, 2018 I guess the C&C wiki isn't right. But the old manual isn't right either. This is what I get with google: Look at the origin of the files. It says:https://forums.cncnet.org/uploads/monthly_2012_08/gditree.jpg.6086df546f78481cb6eed375fba5d866.jpghttps://forums.cncnet.org/uploads/monthly_2012_08/nodtree.jpg.746ada1d6c6534e5dee51f6f958baa0d.jpg As you can see, the nod buggy is at tech 3 according to the files. Is it a mistake in the manual. Or did someone change it in the game? Either way. Where can I find the most accurate list that says that buggies are tech 4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cn2mc Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 (edited) http://nyerguds.arsaneus-design.com/cnc95upd/inirules/units.ini Unless Nyer ALSO made a mistake, which is as close to impossible as can be, considering his OCD with C&C, the buggy is at tech 4, while the bike and hummer are at 2. So that explains your 'buggy limbo' situation. If I were to venture a guess, it's probably related to the APC also coming in at 4. Edit: what I neglect to mention this whole time is that pound for pound hummers are equal to or even better than bikes for a variety of reasons, they're the real hard counter to pure bikes. But hummers are also decidedly worse than buggies. Having both bikes and 300-buck buggies available at tech 2, while GDI doesn't even have meds and can't APC rush is overkill. Edited January 5, 2018 by cn2mc clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myg Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 Hmm, this is a tricky one. Which is right? The manual or the latest version of the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cn2mc Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 No unit stats were changed in CnCNet besides the speed of the cargo plane, so, the game's right. The only official balance patch ever done to C&C AFAIK was upping the cost of the turret to $600. That was done very early for the DOS version, before C&C Gold came out, I think. Everything else WW patched was bug-fixes and exploits. Such errors can occur when manuals are printed before the game is completely finished and itself ready for the presses. I even have memories of reading a story about a specific case like this, but I can't remember if it was for C&C or Civilization I, which is notorious for the errors and omissions in its manual. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X3M Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 Well, Nyerguds word will be final on this one regarding the tech. But I see where the choice comes from. The manual that I got with C&C95 has some other mistakes as well. Like the build times. Regarding the hit and run tactics. I have no doubt that my skill would have beaten the guy if he chosen a more open map. And it is often my way of pausing a GDI player. There is some risk to the initial rush while playing a money map. Hit and run with bikes doesn't work when the wall you play in is only about 8 wide. And previously only 2 wide guarded with grenadiers. This means, no trespassing towards the base. And a head on with bikes against tanks doesn't work since there is almost no flanking in such a situation. And those grenadiers again. Besides, he had grenadiers. My only choices then are either rifle infantry (insufficient), flamers (can't use them in groups), light tanks for crushing (those tanks). What would you pick? I also wanted to use bazooka against his tanks. But those grenadiers man. That map he had chosen was a GDI friendly map. That I couldn't get buggies was my downfall. Maybe he picked that on purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X3M Posted January 6, 2018 Author Share Posted January 6, 2018 Forgot his name. The thing is. I did know that it was tech 3. I did see the map and thought of it as a challenge against a GDI in close quarters. But it included me thinking I could start with buggies. Thus whiping the grenadiers off the map asap and take down the factory with raw buggy power asap. Ignoring the few tanks at that moment. I wished him the best of luck finding as much people to troll as possible. He was a silent one. Must be angry at life 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AchromicWhite Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 So both sides get tanks at that level, but no buggies. That is kinda interesting... I guess you'd have to use flamer men, and just separate them well, and then use bike/tank combos depending on what you need more of. Makes me wonder if, given that Nod doesn't even have buggies in that situation, if GDI would then be better to just play hum-vee grens, too. Might be a new meta at the level. I haven't really ever played it much at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkey Wilkey Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Well, actually, In unpatched 1.07 DOS C&C buggies are on techlevel 2. Just tested it via dosbox nullmodem connection. But in my 1.20 DOS covert ops installation it's allready on techlevel 4, so it was moved somewhere along the way intentionally or by mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkey Wilkey Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 (edited) UPDATE: it was changed in 1.18p though it wasn't mentioned anywhere. Even the charts from the included in the patch FAQ says it should be 2. newer versions of the FAQ have the same values ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3.4 Chart for creation of units. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's a chart for the creation of units in Command & Conquer. The number in parenthesis next to the unit number is the tech level required in multiplayer mode. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | GDI UNIT | TECH LVL | PREREQUISITE | -------------------+----------+----------------------------------------- | Minigun Infantry | 1 | Barracks | | Grenade Infantry | 1 | Barracks | | Rocket Infantry | 2 | Barracks | | Engineer | 3 | Barracks | | Commando* | 7 | Barracks, Advanced Comm Center | | Humm Vee | 2 | Weapons Factory | | APC | 4 | Barracks, Weapons Factory | | Medium Tank | 3 | Weapons Factory | | MRLS | 7 | Weapons Factory, Adv. Comm Center | | Mammoth Tank | 5 | Weapons Factory, Repair Bay | | Chinook* | 6 | Weapons Factory, Helipad | | Orca | 6 | Weapons Factory, Helipad | | MCV | 7 | Weapons Factory, Adv. Comm Center | | Harvester | 2 | Weapons Factory, Refinery | | Ion Cannon | 7 | Adv. Comm Center | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ For NOD units... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | NOD UNIT | TECH LVL | PREREQUISITE | -------------------+----------+----------------------------------------- | Minigun Infantry | 1 | Hand of Nod | | Rocket Infantry | 2 | Hand of Nod | | Flamethrower Inf | 1 | Hand of Nod | | Engineer | 3 | Hand of Nod | | Chem Warrior* | 7 | Hand of Nod, Temple of Nod | | Commando* | 7 | Hand of Nod, Temple of Nod | | Nod Buggy | 2 | Airstrip | | Recon Bike | 2 | Airstrip | | Light Tank | 3 | Airstrip | | Artillery | 6 | Airstrip | | Flame Tank | 4 | Communications Center, Airstrip | | Stealth Tank | 5 | Communications Center, Airstrip | | Chinook** | 6 | Helipad, Airstrip | | Apache* | 6 | Helipad, Airstrip | | MCV | 7 | Weapons Factory, Temple of Nod | | Harvester | 2 | Weapons Factory, Refinery | | Nuclear Strike | 7 | Temple of Nod | | SSM Launcher* | 7 | Temple of Nod, Airstrip, Obelisk | | APC* | 4 | Airstrip, Hand of Nod | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Available in multi-player missions only. May be available in single player missions as unit given to you at start of mission or as a mission objective for capture. ** The Apache is a special case. To get them in later solo missions, you will need to capture a GDI construction yard. They are available as above in multiplayer games. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3.5 Chart for creation of structures. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- This chart details what the requirements are to build structures in C&C. Note that in single player missions, you may not have access to advanced buildings until later in the game. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | GDI STRUCTURE | TECH LVL | PREREQUISITE | -------------------+----------+----------------------------------------- | Const. Yard | 1 | None (all buildings require this) | | Power Plant | 1 | Construction Yard | | Barracks | 1 | Power Plant | | Refinery | 1 | Power Plant | | Tiberium Silo | 1 | Refinery | | Guard Tower | 2 | Barracks | | Adv. Guard Twr | 4 | Communications Center | | Weapons Factory | 2 | Power Plant | | Repair Pad | 5 | Power Plant | | Comm Center | 2 | Refinery | | Adv. Pwr Plant | 5 | Power Plant | | Adv. Comm Cntr | 7 | Communications Center | | Helipad | 6 | Barracks | | Sandbags | 1 | Construction Yard | | Chain link Fence | 1 | Construction Yard | | Concrete Wall | 1 | Construction Yard | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ For NOD structures.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | NOD STRUCTURE | TECH LVL | PREREQUISITE | -------------------+----------+----------------------------------------- | Const. Yard | 1 | None (all buildings require this) | | Power Plant | 1 | Construction Yard | | Hand of NOD | 1 | Power Plant | | Refinery | 1 | Power Plant | | Tiberium Silo | 1 | Refinery | | Turret | 2 | Hand of Nod | | SAM Site | 6 | Hand of Nod | | Airstrip | 2 | Refinery | | Repair Pad | 5 | Power Plant | | Comm Center | 2 | Refinery | | Adv. Pwr Plant | 5 | Power Plant | | Temple of NOD | 7 | Communications Center | | Helipad | 6 | Hand of Nod | | Obelisk of Light | 4 | Communications Center | | Chain link Fence | 1 | Construction Yard | | Concrete Wall | 1 | Construction Yard | | Sandbags | 1 | Construction Yard | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Edited April 12, 2018 by Milkey Wilkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cn2mc Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Nice discovery. This just goes to show you that they found out very early it screwed with the balance. BTW, these charts have other major errors. Helicopters do not require a factory or airstrip, SSM only needs obelisk and not temple... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X3M Posted April 12, 2018 Author Share Posted April 12, 2018 Mistakes like that where also made in the images that I provided. You need the helipad AND barracks/HON for both the orca and the apache according to the manual. How strange that both sides get some tanks, while they can't be build. I would say that with the modern knowledge about bikes vs tanks, GDI is screwed! Maybe crates contained tanks for the players? Also, I find it odd that bikes have to do it alone. They are bad against infantry and to an extend to humm-vee's. But maybe they expected NOD players to send flamethrowers all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cn2mc Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Easy way to test this: build barracks, build helipad, sell barracks, place down pad. Is the orca/apache option there? Haven't thought about it, but I'd bet on a yes. 1 hour ago, X3M said: You need the helipad AND barracks/HON for both the orca and the apache according to the manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AchromicWhite Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 14 hours ago, cn2mc said: Easy way to test this: build barracks, build helipad, sell barracks, place down pad. Is the orca/apache option there? Haven't thought about it, but I'd bet on a yes. Yeah, I was thinking this as I was looking down these posts... Makes me wonder. The SSM probably should need temple, TBH... but it is what it is. (I could be here all day, talking like this xD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AchromicWhite Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Yeah, just tested it in single player... sold barracks before placing helipad. Could still build orca. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now