Production speeds for structures/units

[AchromicWhite]

Hi guys!
This is a follow up on my thread about build times, which can be found here:
https://forums.cncnet.org/topic/7945-25-faster-nod-vehicle-build-speed-wow/

I've been doing more research.
I was incorrect about my last statements, (there is no "25% increase") but the time taken for items to build is very strange.

So, I used to believe that when you built an item, it would take a stock amount of time based on it's price. So, for example, that a flame tank (800) would take twice the amount of time to build, than a humvee (400) and four times as long as a flamer (200) etc. Basically, we thought that there was a "credit time", or, a stock amount of time that could be calculated as credits/time (C/T).

There is no "credit time".

Instead, there is a minimum time increment (I'll call this TI) for certain items, and then all other items are multiples of that increment.
Note that TI cannot be calculated as an actual length of time, because it'll vary due to the game speed setting, online/offline play etc.

Stranger than the fact that everything is rounded to a number of TI, is that many units do not even have the same TI as other units of the same price. I have no idea why that would be.

I've taken the time to write up a spreadsheet to show the TI for each structure and unit. I'm over 90% sure that these numbers are correct, but please note that I got them by using a stop watch as part of the process. So some of the highest ones could be off (but I honestly don't think they are).

Even though there is no true C/T, I've placed two columns showing what the price of each unit/structure would be if TI=100 and TI=150 to help compare units and structure build times regarding game balance. The results are pretty interesting.

In the example where TI = 100, that would make the TI "correct" for:
minigunners and concrete walls
In the example where TI = 150, that would make the TI "correct" for:
Silo, (almost the Grenadier at 160), barracks, hand of nod, rocket inf, chem inf, buggy, artillery, light tank, SSM and stealth tank.
The higher the number under C-TI, the more of a bonus is given in production speed, compared to it's price.

I've also added columns to show the cost/build time ratio as a %, where TI is 100 and 150.

Lastly, I've added columns to show the build time/cost ratio as a %, as well, showing TI as both 100 and 150.

Here is the table: 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSmM_ipJSaJqQPdsGZPl1REnJlnH2HsjtPf56jH4zasjS9DGnpbwyjyWnNMci21NMOBRXPeliC8H0qM/pubhtml

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Edit: Added 4 new columns, these show the TI, Cost-TI, Cost/TI and TI/Cost where TI = 114.3
114.3 is the number calculated to show 800 cost = 7 TI (Med tank/MLRS).
Have a look at the % of all the GDI vehicles. It's amazing how close most of them are to 100%... only the humvee is out by a good amount.
Even the defences are pretty damn close. I've also highlighted them so that you can quickly scroll left and right to see what you're looking at.

Many of the other structures are also very close to this, so maybe don't read too much into it.

Edited January 7, 2018 by AchromicWhite

[AchromicWhite]

1 minute ago, chem said:

What are the build speed bonuses for the airfields and how does that affect the standard build speeds?

Is there a limit on build speed bonus from multiple air fields/weapons factories?

What happens to units that are already fast to build like buggies when you have multiple airfields?

 

Very interesting thread ,  your knowledge of the game is impressive

What are the build speed bonuses for the airfields and how does that affect the standard build speeds?
There is no bonus for producing anything via the airstrip. The only difference is that it flies in via plane.

Is there a limit on build speed bonus from multiple air fields/weapons factories?
No idea. I've never researched it... but given how fast you can make infantry build when you create like 99 barracks, I can at least say that the limit (if there is one) is much higher than the RA1 limit.

What happens to units that are already fast to build like buggies when you have multiple airfields?
They build faster. That is the extent of my knowledge xD

[AchromicWhite]

1 minute ago, chem said:

Thanks for the replies. Im never sure in money maps if I should go like 6 airfields or not it seems the increase in build speed is barely noticeable after the 3rd airfield.  Esp on light tanks bikes etc

Yeah, I don't know about that. I haven't researched that at all. I suspect that someone else probably already has.
I'd be surprised if Nyer doesn't know.

[Ferret]

Nicely done.

[cn2mc]

The percentage part of the chart makes some sense of it, although I believe it would look better done the other way around, i.e. helipad doesn't build 500% more quickly but at 20% of the time it theoretically should. Adding columns with more unit stats, especially the unknown variables from Nyer's .inis might also result in a correlation, perhaps? (I could do that too, but can't really bring myself up to it on a weekend.)

[AchromicWhite]

Just now, cn2mc said:

The percentage part of the chart makes some sense of it, although I believe it would look better done the other way around, i.e. helipad doesn't build 500% more quickly but at 20% of the time it theoretically should. Adding columns with more unit stats, especially the unknown variables from Nyer's .inis might also result in a correlation, perhaps? (I could do that too, but can't really bring myself up to it on a weekend.)

Yeah, I could do it that way, too.
Wouldn't take long to fiddle with...

...and...
Done 

enjoy

[X3M]

Nice.

I got some questions too.

Sandbags only $25? Thought they where 50. Since I never build them, I might not have noticed a change. lol. Just like that buggy at tech level ...?

The TI 150 columns are always a factor 1,5 compared to the TI100 columns. Why did you include them?

Those units with a TI of 1. Can I safely assume that the game multiplies with 100, then divides by a factor related to the number of barracks/factories?

I am looking at the Flame Tank and the Medium Tank. I can't believe my eye's. This difference is so big that I cannot doubt your stopwatch. Maybe the difference is related to the tech requirements?  Because the APC and Stealth Tank also make no sense.

I think that having one huge Excel file of all the data could come in handy for those who are interested. The ini file requires a lot of scrolling. You can hardly compare there.

I have sort of seen the same effect in a board game. Where build points are provided by the structure. You need 1 Barracks for all units from €1 - €100. And 2 Barracks for all units from €101 - €200. etc.
But building multiple units. 2 x €50 require only 1 Barracks, yet 2 x €51 require 2 Barracks.

[AchromicWhite]

Oh, you're right, they're 50. Fixed. Thanks... not that I think anyone really cared, but it's nice to be thorough (which is why I bothered to include all the walls in the first place, I guess).

I have NO knowledge of how the multiple production from structures works, and I think someone else has already figured out the % increase of what that gives. When there are multiple barracks, infantry does produce faster than what 1TI usually is, if that helps to answer your question. I can say, from the testing that I did, that having multiple production facilities for a 'type' means that you get the same results for how long 1TI takes.
For example; if you have 3 con yards, 2 barracks, 1 hand of nod and 3 airstrips, all of your structures/vehicles/infantry all seem to produce at the same rate. There may, however, be a cap as to how fast some things can produce and be extra rules I don't know of. But that's what I saw. Because I was comparing units to one another etc, I was almost always just using 1 production facility at a time.

I included the 100/150 columns so that you could look at the TI vs the cost, not so much to compare the two TI values.

Yeah... given the massive difference in TI vs Price, you can see why I originally thought that Nod units just had a flat 25% off their time.

[Nyerguds]

Timing and speed stuff in general is really hard to research in the game... because debugging, by its very purpose, pauses things.

[AchromicWhite]

32 minutes ago, Nyerguds said:

Timing and speed stuff in general is really hard to research in the game... because debugging, by its very purpose, pauses things.

So, just to be clear, you don't really have any knowledge on this front?
Seems like a strange thing for us to have not known for the last 20 years

[X3M]

It isn't just speeds. The projectile randomness in damage is still a guess for C&C as well.

[cn2mc]

Damage is probably pixel related, how exactly, IDK. But also: inaccuracy - tank first shots and shots while moving are not dead on, etc. 

[X3M]

Maybe exactly like those in Dune2

http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/DOS/Dune2.html

[AchromicWhite]

On 1/8/2018 at 11:06 AM, X3M said:

Maybe exactly like those in Dune2

http://tasvideos.org/GameResources/DOS/Dune2.html

Wow... I've never seen that.

I know that if a recon bike is moving and gets shot by a minigunner, it actually takes 0 dmg. If you drive it onto a repair bay after, nothing happens. You can even drive it past like 5 dudes... they all fire but the bikes just isn't hurt. It's not true for the guard tower, though (might be the larger splash size for HE).