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Going to try and see if people can handle low tiberium maps, see if they hate it, will host that way tonight, PHD says its a more strategic style of play. Last time I tried it didn't go down so well. Will try again. While we do not agree on many things I still take your points seriously and will try them out. PHD also did this unusual move with tanks where I think he spammed scatter/move with fire orders in fast succession so the tanks did this jittering move very good hard to focus fire on and he timed it so they moved in-between THEIR OWN shots so they fired then dodged as they were reloading then fired again. I think what im trying to do in large numbers doesn't work unless you have more hot key skill and break big groups up into teams but still using them as a whole to take advantage of the efficiency of large numbers vs small idea, (an instance where alot more skill or a different type of skill is required on money maps ie being able to efficiently control a massive group of units this is alot harder than controlling just a few units well, on low money maps, which is why there's a tendency to just slam on high tiberium maps, you have to use hotkeys to a higher level of proficiency ) (That's partly why I emphasise learning it all, money maps, open maps, low money maps, clustered maps, team games, 1v1, 3 vs 2, 3v3, FFA, , unfair maps, unbalanced maps, cheesing, no cheesing, etc it all helps improve overall skill, the more difficult situations you are put under the better you get as a player, (stress tested) , tested for weaknesses, improved in ways fair play cant improve you, sometimes sticking only to well designed balanced maps and fair play weakens you as a player) That's also why people are scared to fight someone outside the original maps or scared to fight outside balanced 1v1 maps or outside money maps, or outside their own favourite map, or with cheesing /no cheesing involved, or when theres a direct close open path between each other early, or when the maps open, etc because their skill set is limited to just 1 thing, its not adaptive. It gives them an unfair advantage in that specific thing, short term, but overall they are just not that good and it will be a cost to their long term skill. (cnc1 on cnc.net is not the same as the original cnc1 the metas are all over the place even a well designed fair map like blistering sands is a very different meta to the original red sands there's so much more money and its more even, it changes the play style drastically, and then 1 step above that with even more tiberium is a different meta still, teams are different meta to ffa, 1v1 different to teams do you want a specific skill set to get an advantage in 1 area short term at least, (somewhat like a noob that only plays 1 map so he can win) or a general skillset to be overall a better player?) So back to my point hit and run or hit and dodge doesn't work in large numbers unless they are grouped into smaller groups and used near simultaneously to do their hit and run/fire and dodge fire!? So basically to answer my own question you have to use more teams and more hotkey skill as the numbers get larger!

Brother SMT you are part of the elite now! Nice to have one of my peak time bros in here!

PHD did this really cool move I think it was scatter with bikes and it made them a really difficult to hit with my tanks. It also kept the damage spread over all of the bikes so no 1 bike was lost and they could all still fire which is better than losing 1-2. When ever I try to time tank shells and the missile fire ratio of the bike especially in larger numbers of tanks and bikes I just cant do it very well. There's no rhythm all the tanks and bikes get into position and fire at a different random rate. II think id be better off not manuvering my bikes at all and just concentrate on focus fire better. Any tips for effective hit and run or effective ly taking advantage of the bikes speed /attributes to dish out damage without taking it? (especially in a head on fight with a fairly large number of tanks/bikes im not talking about targeting single units or retreating units but more in head on battles when they are ready for you) A single unit is easy if you have a single bike you just go fire as soon as the bike fires move it away once its reloaded go back perhaps make them miss then fire , run away, repeat. But in larger numbers this becomes much more difficult to do. Should you just try to recreate the effect as best you can or should you just concentrate on focus fire instead?

Thanks for your honest feedback and expert help, I will make sure refineries can fit in the middle from all angles. Or do you mean its just a bad idea tactically to expand into the middle? Would it be better filled with tiberium? 1 last key thing I wanted to know is, is the above map strategically deep like your FFA map, do the pathways achieve that? Or the same level of depth as your 2 ffa maps? I do not know because ive only just learnt about the idea from you

Before I start making the map look symmetrical and pretty etc would you say ive understood and implemented what you've taught me about map design judging by this sketch map? Does this map resolve all your criticisms? Ive made it larger while keeping perfect symmetry (when its finished it will be symmetrical) (something your map loses to gain extra space, your map is not and cannot be perfectly balanced or symmetrical) Its no longer an open field its balanced between open and closed (I felt some of your map and maps are too closed off which is annoying because the AI is awkward and it is awkward to have to cram units through 1 cell spaces, especially when there are alot of units) that's why I always deviated to open, and the pillars were to help GDI defend their base like an extra bit of wall. There are many angles of attack so you can surprise people and fake them out adding to the adrenaline tactics and excitement. Im not sure if that qualified as the strategic depth you were talking about? Mostly involving te pathways? Less tiberium although I feel it needs more since its 6 player, with the extra room that's doable now I can fit more tiberium in if needed. I put 1 more small patch behind everyone's start position Yea does this map solve all the criticisms if it doesn't please criticise away so I can solve them before I make it properly. Cheers

" I'm coming up with how to make a map play better matches more frequently. And we can debate what makes matches better... but what clearly doesn't, is removing the skill ceiling." You just failed to display an understanding of subjective vs objective again. That's an opinion. There can be popular opinions and unpopular opinions...... If you want an applied science style of map making you have to start with a goal and then use the scientific method and scientific knowledge (facts) to reach that goal. Problem is your goal isn't everyone else's goal, and its not a pure science so its all based on an opinion at the root , so there is no real merit in your opinion/goal over other peoples opinions/goals on these matters.

Epic

Oh white re the subjective opinion vs objective fact idea, you talked about social science well that's an applied science not a real science it uses the scientific method to reach a goal but it starts with a subjective premise/goal. So with regards to maps, factually speaking Trichotomy is no better than southern Utah, seems crazy but that's the objective truth according to science. I would have thought Trichotomy is vastly superior to southern Utah but the truth and objective reality is that they are not. Same goes for any other teaching point or opinion you and others have have that isn't factual in nature. Its important to make people aware of this point because there's alot of strong opinions and strong group opinions, and people being taught as if these were fact, and they these opinions have absolutely no merit even if it seems like they do.

wHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK ABOUT A NATURAL REALISTIC LOOKING MAP VS AN UNREALISTIC FANTACY MAP? KEEPING IT REALISTIC LOOKING IS MY PREFERENCE IF POSSIBLE BUT I FIND IT A MASSIVELY LIMITING PART OF MAP DESIGN IT LIMITS YOU SO MUCH, it limits fun, strategic depth resources space and so on (at least potentially it does) Basically there are far more options for everything if you are not confined by "natural looking" Do you guys prefer fantasy maps e.g. a spider web style map or something thats in-between e.g. semi natural looking but symmetrical with a design, or do you prefer totally natural looking?

Yea takes a good deal of practice to stop him he's a beast at it only a few people can stop him more than 50% of the time, and I ave to change my build order in order (to 1 refinery) to be able to do that , worst thing is hes got complex layers to his game if you protect your conyard he will go for an airfield if you protect both of those a loaded refinery and failing getting a crucial building he will take any building he can and build a hand of nod turrets more engies flamers, and send buggie reinforcements from his base and fight you in your base. Ive never seen any1 play like pence. Hes not the best guy around and I understand why hes not liked but when you sit across from him in a 1v1, you don't sit there in a relaxed state, he also terrorises the noobs and anyone that cant stop his rush.

Thanks, here you go, https://youtu.be/MmSVDty-Ivo

Legends Never Die. He retired and went down in the list of undisputed Cnc1 heavyweight champions, only a select elite make it to that list. Its not just the top 10 current players its the best of all time the best of each era

Did he? I never saw him go above basic tech, base creep with refineries power and hon, , a few flamers , lots of buggies an odd bike, limited refineries 3 usually, ive been told occasionally 1 helicopter ? I played him quite a few games. Never saw any tech or any kind or late game economy. Very little variation he built 2 airfields if he was on a map that didn't allow base creeping. His late game economy seemed so poor he didn't even fluidly build buggies later on,, he was all about early game and instead of using the starting cash for refineries for later he used it for the creep and the buggies early. He didn't even go 2 refineries just 1, and yet he beat everyone or almost every1

Wow thank you so much incredible the depth he is playing at and your knowledge is incredible, this game is so awesome, there's such a long way to climb before you reach optimal effectiveness, this is a deep game.

How did Lovehandles beat him? You seen the vid? He had lots of cliffs not sure if that was a big factor or not. knowing Love not.

sometimes a manipulation is a valid point as well as a manipulation, sometimes it wasn't intended as a manipulation even though it could be used as one, like in this case, but not going to argue it further Yes I will recreate something like it, wont take long as I have a template for the middle part.

yes many times some close games (and many 1 sided beat downs in his favour) at least a guy called mr buggies/piv/bike666) and yes he is better, what makes you think I hadn't played him?

I suppose there are levels to this but he does it over and over has got very fluid with it and few people can stop him even if they know its coming, he gets it in 80-90 % of the time vs the regulars, I think that's at least good, but you could argue cheesing is easy anyway. I sense you know better and know the difference between an elite engie user and mike pence, what is that difference? Why do you think Pence is no good and how do you engie well? Ive seen ultra impressive engie use from you im glad to see some of the highest skilled players still use the frowned apon tactics , I loved your x2 apc rush in one of your games vs me that was epic, and ive seen some epic engie Chinook use from Ferret after building a ton of orcas, even just targeting empty refineries a very unknown but effective method of borking someones economy. But also Pence uses some impressive tactics like sending in buggies and the apc at the same time from different sides so if you don't defend the buggies they get an important building and if you split your forces to deal with both threats at the same time the engineer is more likely to get in and the buggies have a number advantage vs half of your buggies, that kinda thing. That impresseses me. What is impressive engie use to you? (ive seen the x2 apc in a row rush from you and the if you are behind send the engie apc to hopefully turn the game around again)

Agreed bro, it saves me asking 1000 question too cheers to White

When I first read this thread it was only 1 part and I dismissed the thread as a long read that didn't help my maps much but now ive seen the updates its really useful

3) Also is it possible (or probable) for nod to beat an engie rush without going 1 refinery? Against a good engie rush (mike pence) I find I cannot stop the engie rush with 2 refineries, with GDI you have the machine gun tower and the Humvee's instant spawn from the factory, and its more practical to build loads of troops in the types of numbers that can stop an APC rush . Ferret was very kind to give me a tuition video on stopping the engie rush with GDI but it doesn't seem to work with nod unless I should place a turret instead? Ah that might work? I think I have one of the best engie defences because I play mike pence all the time and hes always doing it but I cant defend it with nod with 2 refineries especially if im on the left side. Can you? If so how? I suppose clustering might help? Making walls with silos and so on? Blocking? 4) Also will it ruin your economy if he decides 1 match to engie rush the next match to not engie rush and go 2 refineries or 3, and then next game engie rush again with 1 refinery and then you cant just defend as if he will send the engie rush because if you do he will build a better economy than you and win the long term game. (not his idea mine but now he knows it he can use it, ) So since your scouts can be blocked how do you resolve this problem? (it forces you to defend the engie rush all the time and he doesn't have to he is free to engie rush or build a good economy for a late game advatage) 5) Is the game at some level broken and certain cheeses and clever tactics regarding multiple games in a row or map type with break the game at least partially?

Is it possible to get the files cn2mc? For your epic FFA map? Cheers! Hope you make some more maps for game types you don't like because not many people go for 1v1 so that means all your talent at map making isn't enjoyed by everyone or even many people, which I feel is a shame. You deprive ppl and the map folder of your talent thay way imo. Hope you make a 3v3 map now that uve made a 6 player FFA map as given the choice which we have now ppl choose 3v3 over 2v2 every time and 3v3 are much easier than 6 player ffa maps to make. I hope white does the same, for the same reason. Even if its just for teaching purposes show me and us how to make something good for a 3v3 like u did for the ffa map Oh yea the reason for pillars in the new balls map is to help GDI players/players clog up their bases which helps their defence so it does have a function re it not being maze like enough, but im looking forward to clever pathways in my new maps they really add something fun imo.

1) How do you counter this rush if you are GDI I tried it with a GDI pro and he was able to stop it via blocking with buildings cliffs and unit cluter and guard towers machine gun ones. The block basically stopped it, but he had cliffs to help the block without those cliffs does this rush become unstoppable? Or just another cheese that does not work vs someone really good? I suppose a load of barracks and silos mixed in with your troops tanks and turrets will stop it? 2) 2nd cheese idea: The all in 4 heli rush with harvester the counter is bazooka men and you can run them down with the harvester scout but then if they are good they will scatter the bazooka men and destroy the harvester then destroy the helis, but I thought what if the helis attacked WHILE the bazookers were doging then they cant possibly shoot down the helis if they are dodging and shooting the harvester at the same time?? I suppose a load of barracks refineries and helis all over the show will stop it but you have to be able to scout the harvester in time and build them in time which might not be the dominant position to be in to win otherwise you will have to build a different type of build and decide to do that before the game begins,?

He always used to make 2 teams of buggies and then creep towards your base then fighting you with turrets and hon while harassing you from 2 sides at the same time with buggies before and during the fast early creep . Does that method of "rushing" change the dynamic somehow? I their potency their ability to be built so fast so early? Am I right in presuming if you can back that speed up with a base creep THEN they become effective again? But not wo a base creep? (Is that why cnmc tried to deny the early base creep in his maps? Often in his and whites maps don't make the base creep immediately available for offence like it is on green acres for example)

But he was better than me and 99% if not 100% of people. So maybe he is on another level of thinking. The more I play the more I find buggies are worthless alone in large numbers (and humvees) and you are better off building a mix of units or tanking. Its seems these days the less buggies I build the more effective I am. (the complete opposite of my greener days) Yet he relied on them so much he even named himself mr buggies. He rarely if ever played a game without them. Is it because the low money maps which were also open made buggies more potent ? (it seems they suck because the counter of tanks turrets, flammers etc just reduce buugies to dust (while remaining themselves) and then you just wasted a ton of money on buggies and you have nothing the extra mobility doesn't count for jack they are base creeping and securing the tiberium fields that way with tanks hons and turrets) It just seems with good defence buggies are worthless die fast and then theres a massive hole in both your defence and offence when they are gone and you become very vulnerable