artillery question

[DAIJOUBU?]

10 hours ago, X3M said:

It is not regarding a bug.
It is merely a misunderstanding in combat statistics.
It clearly can be shown with extremes, which the artillery unit has in range.
To fix it: the WW team added inaccuracy to the damage in the Firestorm expansion.

Which reminds me, does anyone know, how much the inaccuracy actually is?

 

I've done some rigorous testing on the flak track's anti-air attack in RA2 and YR, so if this uses similar code it's likely that the accuracy gets significantly worse as the range increases. i'll try to set time aside to answer this and post results here

Edited February 7, 2020 by DAIJOUBU?

[X3M]

8 minutes ago, DAIJOUBU? said:

  

ah, personally I don't think it's possible to "calculate range wrong" unless there's a bug involved. everything else is just a gameplay abstraction and that sort of thing is always forgivable except in flight simulators and documentaries

I am more referring to the initial first weight factors. Before the practical balances are tested. It goes like: if health is X and damage is Y, then the costs should be Z.

I suspect they had a certain level in this. But RTS games where relatively young back then. They noticed the mistake with an extreme, the artillery. They got a practical fix for the artillery. I wonder about all other units though. They probably had their weight changed by smaller adjustments, perhaps even prior to TS being made public. But I suspecting, it was not by the adjustment on weapon range.

To add to your comment on the critical mass. There is math possible to counter this effect.

7 minutes ago, DAIJOUBU? said:

I've done some rigorous testing on the flak track's anti-air attack in RA2 and YR, so if this uses similar code it's likely that the range gets significantly worse as the range increases. i'll try to set time aside to answer this and post results here

That would be great!

[Hungry Mike]

13 hours ago, Black said:

Mola is not a good long game or defensive player(notice that less than 1% of his games last longer than 5-10 minutes) His play style depends on extreme aggression and pressure. Players like corpsmakr utilize them and they were much more common on old servers where the game speed wasn’t so fast.

Mola rekt Corps 4:0 and 6:2 at Terr. Hes a beast, a winning machine. He is good in long game, too. But even if not: That doesnt matter, because if you are so good in early game, that you wreck anyone in it like he does, you dont even need a long game... And the fast game speed is good, wouldnt you agree? I mean: You dont want laggy games, i guess....

13 hours ago, Black said:

Furthermore, your reference point is limited only to terrace which is a fully open map. On large maps like river runs and forest fires artilary are extremely effective. As well as bottle necked maps like Grand Canyon and crater. GDIs mobile mechs will always have advantage on open map and nods OP stationary defense will always have advantage on larger/closed off maps that force bottle necks or cliff pathing.

mola doesn’t and ever did play FS. On FS artilary/juggernauts do not hit moving targets. Which made them useless for unit defense.

Arts can be very effective on large maps, true. But in early game, you are still easy food for disses. So it depends on the playstyle: The longer you are in the game, the more usefull arts become; i agree.

With Firestorm: WW tried to rebalance the game. They made arts useless against disses, but they gave Nod Reapers, who are more effective against disses/carryals. So i dont think FS is that bad or the arts are that useless; it requires changing the playstyle to the new settings; and i guess - although i play TS multiplayer only since 2017/18 - many players didnt like to change their beloved playstyle.

[Black]

20 hours ago, Hungry Mike said:

Mola rekt Corps 4:0 and 6:2 at Terr. Hes a beast, a winning machine. He is good in long game, too. But even if not: That doesnt matter, because if you are so good in early game, that you wreck anyone in it like he does, you dont even need a long game... And the fast game speed is good, wouldnt you agree? I mean: You dont want laggy games, i guess....

Arts can be very effective on large maps, true. But in early game, you are still easy food for disses. So it depends on the playstyle: The longer you are in the game, the more usefull arts become; i agree.

With Firestorm: WW tried to rebalance the game. They made arts useless against disses, but they gave Nod Reapers, who are more effective against disses/carryals. So i dont think FS is that bad or the arts are that useless; it requires changing the playstyle to the new settings; and i guess - although i play TS multiplayer only since 2017/18 - many players didnt like to change their beloved playstyle.

Although I don’t want to speak as if I have credible inside information to the developers minds when I don’t u like some people. I think it’s safe to say they didn’t intend to make artilary be a 1 stop solution for all of nods problems. Just because it’s nit effective in every defensive scenario doesn’t mean it’s flawed. 

Also, I don’t understand how corps/moles win loss ratio is relevant to this discussion. You said Mola doesn’t use  Artillery and I pointed out that his games never last long enough for them to become useful. However, if you watch the few games he has posted that last beyond his main tib patch you will recognize multiple opportunities where artilary would have been a game changer if he decided to use them. 

Artillery is a supplement to defense. A back line unit that requires fodder. In combination with which it is very powerful. 

On firestorm they are still useful for base walking fights. For example when you are middle fighting on terraces artilary and juggernauts do heavy damage to enemy structures and can be the only way to pick off tower defense once the money starts running out. 

[Weaponx]

I try to use art in late game, early game its just not worth it.  Its will cost me offensive gameplay to make arts early.

Unlike gdi titans which are the best defensive and offensive unit in-game, art is stuck at being defensive only.

That said arts might be strong if you rush with titans alone, but if you mix in some inf, arts often tend to be less useful. You cant really target titans without wasting to much time, and if you misclick the wlll undelploy and then youll have a problem.  Another thing 1 bomber run kills art, they are very weak on defence.

It is a useful unit in longer games,  but nothing i would start mass producing due to limitations of the unit, price, armor, and you rely on auto targeting 90% of the time with this unit.

And for the record i do have long games, but most players tend to die before it goes "long". Check some youtube games vs tiger 1v1 where its 40mins +, the other day i had a 2hour game with him.

[Mole40k]

The other issue of course being the fact they have to be static to fire, and it takes time for them to deploy. As you say, they also have fairly weak armour when they do deploy and can be easily taken out by bombers. ? 

EDIT: oh, and I forgot to mention the issue of friendly-fire when using art as defense...

Edited February 11, 2020 by Mole40k

[Hungry Mike]

7 hours ago, Mole40k said:

The other issue of course being the fact they have to be static to fire, and it takes time for them to deploy. As you say, they also have fairly weak armour when they do deploy and can be easily taken out by bombers. ? 

EDIT: oh, and I forgot to mention the issue of friendly-fire when using art as defense...

If you divide them well and have enough sams, bombers are useless. Steelcore uses arts most of the time from early game on, and he finds the right mix with roket men and tiny fodder (lasers). But even he gets dissed, when he relies on arts too much.