Regarding the TS QM map discord

[Avesta]

I don’t want to start yet another bicker thread. But I would like to lay out some food for thought from the perspective of a TS vet that isn’t bias or hard headed.

First of all, imo the Vet patch is a project that does a lot to enhance, complete, and balance this game. It’s very subtle but provides appropriate adjustments to create viability in areas that were previously left moot or severely underwhelming.

That being said, outside of WeaponX using a CC I wouldn’t even notice if it was or wasn’t applied during a game. Therefore I’m personally not concerned one way or another if it’s on or off. In fact, since I don’t care for Nod game play I would leave it off if I had a choice since it makes things easier for me.

As for maps on the QM ladder, I personally enjoy a variety of maps being available. As a player who is good at reading situations and adapting I can appreciate having a variety of environments. However, for the vast majority of players this isn’t the case. And while I would initially make the suggestion to keep a variety of the fair/symmetrical/balanced maps.. The creator of said maps doesn’t want them to be used in non Vet versions. 
 

Quite frankly, I don’t believe that even non vet versions of the balanced maps would even be accepted by the individuals who are currently holding out on the ladder just to spite VET. 
 

For better or for worse, Tiberian Sun is comprised of a veteran player base that delt with the Terrace map as being the only thing even close to balanced for nearly 2 decades. It’s the only map that anyone plays or cares about. It’s the bread and butter of this game. Terrace is more important than fairness, more important than balance. And the only thing anyone who plays wants (no Amokk, I don’t care what you think). 
 

Therefore, in my opinion... The only way that there will be a environment on the QM ladder where everyone (who matters) will be happy is to limit it to 3 maps. 
 

Map 1. Vanilla Terrace 
Map 2. VET terrace
Map 3. Giants of War

with 2 map allowed to be rejected.

Everyone wins, Everyone’s happy, and everyone who wants to participate will have no excuses.
 

There is no solution more viable than this to accommodate the entire player base. These particular maps are what people want to play. There are no new players coming in so there is no point in trying to put the game in a place where it will appeal to fresh perspectives.

Do what you will with my advice and opinions/commentary aren’t welcome.

[Hungry Mike]

Forget it. Many ppl are more than one-map-players. Terrace is, when played too often, a boring, unfair map, which makes me sleep, because any real encounter takes years to come. The tiny bit of ppl, who ONLY love to play it, love it, because they like robot game play. There are many, many nice maps we can play with. I recommend Offense Defense or Inferno to be in the pool for instance. Ts elite players should be capable of playing more than one map; or are they inferior to TD and RA pros? I hope not.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Hungry Mike

[amokk]

12 hours ago, Avesta said:

For better or for worse, Tiberian Sun is comprised of a veteran player base that delt with the Terrace map as being the only thing even close to balanced for nearly 2 decades. It’s the only map that anyone plays or cares about. It’s the bread and butter of this game. Terrace is more important than fairness, more important than balance. And the only thing anyone who plays wants (no Amokk, I don’t care what you think). 

"It’s the only map that anyone plays or cares about."     obviously that is not the only map anyone plays

"Terrace is more important than fairness, more important than balance.    to you, maybe....

"And the only thing anyone who plays wants"      I play, and it is not what I want.

 

"There are no new players coming in so there is no point in trying to put the game in a place where it will appeal to fresh perspectives"

That is exactly why we should put it in a place where it will appeal.

what you suggest though, is, a reasonable solution.

 

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by amokk

[Weaponx]

I am sorry Amokk, but anything you say just sounds like utter rubbish.

First off i have no clue why you even comment, you lack everything in all fields of this game, control, game tactics, unit management,  experience and basic knowledge  of the game.

You insist on playing rubbish modded maps, which wont ever improve your gameplay on regular maps. As for new players coming to ts, who in their right mind would tell them to play giants, which doesn't represent ts at all.

 

Also a  player who calls other players for cheaters without proof, just because they lose, and are out-skilled. (You calling momo a cheater). Is just laughable, and you want to come here and give your opinion. It is  just as useless as you calling people for cheaters.

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Weaponx

[amokk]

1 hour ago, Weaponx said:

First off i have no clue why you even comment, you lack everything in all fields of this game, control, game tactics, unit management,  experience and basic knowledge  of the game.

my obtuse fellow ts player...

I have probably played over 120,000 games over the years.

Edited July 25, 2020 by amokk

[amokk]

yes, i know you are confused, you and pence...both

[Weaponx]

I am confused, how you can play so much, and yet be so bad. Its a mystery, or is it to much modded ?

Edited July 25, 2020 by Weaponx

[amokk]

it's me just playing.........what i enjoy.

[Avesta]

I realize my suggestion sounds strange from the perspective of someone who doesn’t play TS.  Because it’s weird to have an entire game focused on 1 playing field. But the developers at WOL clearly stated that the maps for TS were not carefully adjusted for balance. They were thrown together quickly and eye balled. This lead to the majority of official maps being unusable for a game even close to fair. While terrace isn’t a perfect map by any means as a fully equal map (especially in 1v1s)  it’s the closest we have besides “Tunnel Training” which wasn’t popular due to its very small size and unacceptably limited tiberium availability.

This problem lead to 99% of games being played on a single map which was terrace (not counting the modded community..) or games with more than 4 players. 
 

Only in the last 2-3 years has TS had really nice player made custom maps that are appropriate for a game like this. But they have been largely neglected because of the 15+ tenure of having terrace as the only reasonable option. Our habits And comfort zone have just been set in stone. (And of course the hate brigade whom wants to spite VET because they don’t like its author).

This is why I’m suggesting to just put terrace on the ladder and ignore everything else. Fact of the matter is, the majority of players who would disagree with this would have no intention of participating on the ladder anyways. And having giants on it would give the giants community means to participate with their peers even though I suspect a tiny fraction of them will have any desire to 1v1 on it. 

There are arguments to have all maps but I disagree with this because while terrace itself is not perfectly balanced almost no other map is appropriate for a 1v1 or is massively outrageous with its lopsidedness.

 

 

[Weaponx]

I think currently ladder maps are fine as they are. Vet balanced and a mix of special made maps which tries to balance it. 
 

Humble and company did a great job with vet and maps. 
 

infact just put in giants in the selection of maps to make the “modders” happy, and ww players can deselect it. This will force modders to actually  play some ww maps. 
 

Issue solved. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Weaponx

[Phenomena]

Personally, almost every map should be added (provided they are fair, no hidden units or mods etc)
and you are unable to reject any.

A proper competitive landscape should have maps at complete random, against random opponents....the best players will come out on top.

Throw in 40 ww maps, 30 mods, vet and non vet alike, cant reject any, you play what you are given.

Give every TS player (not just the handful of hardcore pros) a chance to compete

[Avesta]

2 hours ago, Phenomena said:

Personally, almost every map should be added (provided they are fair, no hidden units or mods etc)
and you are unable to reject any.

A proper competitive landscape should have maps at complete random, against random opponents....the best players will come out on top.

Throw in 40 ww maps, 30 mods, vet and non vet alike, cant reject any, you play what you are given.

Give every TS player (not just the handful of hardcore pros) a chance to compete

Man you are spot on here, can’t believe you and I are on the same page. 

When I made this topic I too thought that every map should be included provided that they are fair. And thus my narrowed down list of terrace and terrace was born. 

Thank you for your support.

[Hungry Mike]

On 7/26/2020 at 2:03 AM, Avesta said:

I realize my suggestion sounds strange from the perspective of someone who doesn’t play TS.  Because it’s weird to have an entire game focused on 1 playing field.

As a guy who plays TS a lot (besides TD), i can asure you, it is strange for ANY one, TS players included.

On 7/26/2020 at 2:03 AM, Avesta said:

Only in the last 2-3 years has TS had really nice player made custom maps that are appropriate for a game like this. But they have been largely neglected because of the 15+ tenure of having terrace as the only reasonable option. Our habits And comfort zone have just been set in stone.

I apprechiate your honesty, many would talk some smack to hide the real reason they want terr. But you are a guy with enough IQ to play more than 1 map; and you do play many different maps, to your credit. But why should we care for the comfort zone of a very tiny fraction? I dont think if there would be terr only on ladder, it would solve any problem at all; more so, i think, it would create even more problems. The interesting thing with the ladder is you can get any map in a big map pool and have to adapt to the probably unknown.

On 7/25/2020 at 8:31 PM, Weaponx said:

As for new players coming to ts, who in their right mind would tell them to play giants, which doesn't represent ts at all.

I wouldnt say so, Mola. For many new commers, WW is extremely toxic: Its very hard, full with issues like moron harvs, tough micro and macro, bugs, op GDI... and most noobs get kicked out. Their only chance to enjoy and learn TS is Giants. Its the "cursus honorum" of TS lol: You start as a little pawn in Giants, then get better and better there, then play BBG, GSO, Small Ville and other semi-WW maps, and then finally you play Terr, Throwback, Crossroads, Off Def...   Most just lack the IQ to get beyond a low class Giants figher.

On 7/25/2020 at 12:38 PM, Hungry Mike said:

Ts elite players should be capable of playing more than one map; or are they inferior to TD and RA pros? I hope not.

I asked it: And i still ask it: Are TS players inferior to TD or RA pros, who play a big pool of maps? If not: Why do some depend on Terr? I thought they are intelligent and smart; or did i sadly mistaken?

Edited July 30, 2020 by Hungry Mike

[FunkyFr3sh]

On 7/25/2020 at 9:24 AM, Avesta said:

Therefore, in my opinion... The only way that there will be a environment on the QM ladder where everyone (who matters) will be happy is to limit it to 3 maps. 
 

Map 1. Vanilla Terrace 
Map 2. VET terrace
Map 3. Giants of War

with 2 map allowed to be rejected.

 

We could just give it a try with 3 maps for 1 month and see how it turns out. Will create a poll on the TS ladder discord server for it soon

[Weaponx]

4 hours ago, FunkyFr3sh said:

 

We could just give it a try with 3 maps for 1 month and see how it turns out. Will create a poll on the TS ladder discord server for it soon

Put Terrace Giants lol.

[Avesta]

2 hours ago, Weaponx said:

Put Terrace Giants lol.

Arrest this man