Unanimous Change

[[CC] RaVaGe]

29 minutes ago, ZiGZaG said:

Apocs are tier 3 unit's 'the soviet ultimate tank' 'war in a can' quotes directly from the campaign. if you dont understand the difference between a main unit e.g. rhino, grizzly compared with a heavy unit e.g. apoc, bf then you are more clueless than i believed. This is why your mod sucks, you dont understand the game in the slightest, If they where supposed to be the main unit's you would have them much earlier in game. This isnt an opinion, this is years of experience and basic common sense, i think you should go play the campaign's and actually listen to what it teaches you. You'll probably learn a thing or two.

Half of this post is full of senseless crap. The campaign teaches what to use IN the CAMPAIGN.

The best point in the last 5 posts was that Allied & Yuri have effective uses for all of their tier 3 units, while the Apocalypse is generally useless.

Deso & Apocs, sure, vs mirage, sure, vs prisms, sure, vs a combo of both mirage & prism with a bunch of rocketeers and a bf, nope just doesn't work, rhinos, nope just doesn't work, a mix of rhinos, flak, apocs, deso, nope apocs are too slow and shitty to micro so just make rhino.

 

17 minutes ago, FlyingMustache said:

Also, resorting to personal attacks shows that you can't debate either.

 

[ZiGZaG]

10 minutes ago, FlyingMustache said:

The best part of this post is that you have no idea what opinion is. EVERYTHING you typed is opinion. Personal experience is anecdotal. There's no source where you derive this from.

Also, four conscripts will only beat a mastermind if you don't touch your mouse. Don't be absurd, input matters. Don't make foolish claims like this and expect to be taken seriously.

We understand this game and how it works. Also, resorting to personal attacks shows that you can't debate either.

Its nothing to do with opinion, its about you not having a clue what your talking about, most of the claims (or your inexperienced opinion's) you seem to make i regard as foolish and i amongst the vast majority of other top players dont take anything you say seriously, but you dont see me crying about your foolish claims. its clear to me that you DONT understand how this game works. Not in the slightest. I notice you miss out the parts about the campaign that actually explains these issue's? Have you actually played the campaigns? I believe thats a valid source...

 

The example with the master mind is the exact same as his with apocs vs bf. its situational, you can add bf's into the mix but lets add rhino's into the mix aswell? its all situational.

On ra2 against allies apocs where unstoppable, with a deso/apoc push allies have absolutely no chance., its clear when YR came along allies needed something to counter them hence the bf. That doesnt make apocs useless it just means like everything else, they now have an effective counter. Just like the bf is countered by sentry/splitting rhinos, As a tier 3 unit a bf is the only unit in the allied arsenal that stands a chance against apocs. It has to have a counter like everything else. Let's take an example lets say its Sov's vs allies Death Valley girl Superweapons off. A clever allied player will sit in his base untill has a ridiculous amount of mirage, prisim and bf. A clever sov would make a mix of Rhino/Apoc and Siege because these are the only effective counter's.

They just don't offer enough benefits to warrant building an army of these. Rhino Tanks, in most scenarios will always be the better tank.

You where never supposed to build an army of them! Think about it, by the time you get ur battle lab up in every game you will already have an army, combining them with other unit's e.g. rhino is where they are most effective and where you see the benefits.

 

Anyway im done here, mustache as usual, clearly doesnt have a clue what hes doing or what hes talking about. Just a noob changing the game because he doesnt understand how to play it.

[ZiGZaG]

35 minutes ago, FReQuEnZy said:

Half of this post is full of senseless crap. The campaign teaches what to use IN the CAMPAIGN.

The best point in the last 5 posts was that Allied & Yuri have effective uses for all of their tier 3 units, while the Apocalypse is generally useless.

Deso & Apocs, sure, vs mirage, sure, vs prisms, sure, vs a combo of both mirage & prism with a bunch of rocketeers and a bf, nope just doesn't work, rhinos, nope just doesn't work, a mix of rhinos, flak, apocs, deso, nope apocs are too slow and shitty to micro so just make rhino.

 

 

The campaign's teach you the effectiveness of different units against the opposing faction's. Im not argueing about the apocs speed, they are designed slow intentionally, making them fire on the move changes the meta and i i disagree completely about the following.

a mix of rhinos, flak, apocs, deso, nope apocs are too slow and shitty to micro so just make rhino.

Again its all situational.

Edited February 11, 2018 by ZiGZaG

[FlyingMustache]

11 minutes ago, ZiGZaG said:

Its nothing to do with opinion, its about you not having a clue what your talking about, most of the claims (or your inexperienced opinion's) you seem to make i regard as foolish and i amongst the vast majority of other top players dont take anything you say seriously, but you dont see me crying about your foolish claims. its clear to me that you DONT understand how this game works. Not in the slightest. I notice you miss out the parts about the campaign that actually explains these issue's? Have you actually played the campaigns? I believe thats a valid source...

 

The example with the master mind is the exact same as his with apocs vs bf. its situational, you can add bf's into the mix but lets add rhino's into the mix aswell? its all situational.

On ra2 against allies apocs where unstoppable, with a deso/apoc push allies have absolutely no chance., its clear when YR came along allies needed something to counter them hence the bf. That doesnt make apocs useless it just means like everything else, they now have an effective counter. Just like the bf is countered by sentry/splitting rhinos, As a tier 3 unit a bf is the only unit in the allied arsenal that stands a chance against apocs. It has to have a counter like everything else. Let's take an example lets say its Sov's vs allies Death Valley girl Superweapons off. A clever allied player will sit in his base untill has a ridiculous amount of mirage, prisim and bf. A clever sov would make a mix of Rhino/Apoc and Siege because these are the only effective counter's.

They just don't offer enough benefits to warrant building an army of these. Rhino Tanks, in most scenarios will always be the better tank.

You where never supposed to build an army of them! Think about it, by the time you get ur battle lab up in every game you will already have an army, combining them with other unit's e.g. rhino is where they are most effective and where you see the benefits.

 

Anyway im done here, mustache as usual, clearly doesnt have a clue what hes doing or what hes talking about. Just a noob changing the game because he doesnt understand how to play it.

The cognitive dissonance of this post is astounding. YES, it IS opinion. I suggest you take a philosophy class so you can understand the difference between subjective and objective claims, because you clearly have no clue. Your claims were laid out and refuted, but of course with your cognitive dissonance it must be everyone else at fault not your claims, right? These are elementary debate parameters man, get with the program.

You're done here because you have nothing. Only opinions and now since you lost the debate the best thing to do is cover your ears and say you can't hear me. And you end your post with an ad hominem attack. Sit down, you can't debate.

[ZiGZaG]

33 minutes ago, FlyingMustache said:

The cognitive dissonance of this post is astounding. YES, it IS opinion. I suggest you take a philosophy class so you can understand the difference between subjective and objective claims, because you clearly have no clue. Your claims were laid out and refuted, but of course with your cognitive dissonance it must be everyone else at fault not your claims, right? These are elementary debate parameters man, get with the program.

You're done here because you have nothing. Only opinions and now since you lost the debate the best thing to do is cover your ears and say you can't hear me. And you end your post with an ad hominem attack. Sit down, you can't debate.

lol im gonna reply to this once. these are some nice suggestion's here some for you. You and your noob mates should learn to play the game, actually get a to a point where your relatively decent then come and debate these thing's when u understand the game. Sit down, your a noob.

[FlyingMustache]

1 minute ago, ZiGZaG said:

lol im gonna reply to this once. these are some nice suggestion's here some for you. You and your noob mates should learn to play the game, actually get a to a point where your relatively decent then come and debate these thing's when u understand the game. Sit down, your a noob.

We have learned to play the game, so this claim is facetious. Sit down, you have nothing. You lost the debate, get over it.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

Can you two morons just play a few series against each other and set up the 'situational cases where "this" & "that" are used?!?!
It's irritating to read of a conversation between two adults who are nearly 30 and the only thing they can agree on is that the other knows nothing on the subject they are discussing.

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by FReQuEnZy

[FlyingMustache]

 

12 minutes ago, FReQuEnZy said:

Can you two morons just play a few series against each other and set up the 'situational cases where "this" & "that" are used?!?!
It's irritating to read of a conversation between two adults who are nearly 30 and the only thing they can agree on is that the other knows nothing on the subject they are discussing.

 

That's not the point. He doesn't know how a debate works. He made claims, they were refuted. Once they were refuted, he didn't try to bring up some other problem with the topic that was brought up. His stance? "I'm right because I have anecdotal experience so I don't need actual evidence." That's not how it works, and I'm sure you know this. You're right, we're both almost 30... hence why I'm trying to keep the debate focused. Ad hominem attacks and circumventing is what kids do. It's honestly embarrassing that he doesn't realize this.

[Ford (retired)]

I suppose Apoc's are niche units in sov vs sov mirror. And are very usuable with Iron Curtain since they do 100% damage to buildings. They also have 1.0x buiild time while rhinos have 1.3x, meaning faster to make per $ than rhinos. I'm just saying this because I think this was Westwood's way of balancing them. If SW are off, then obviously Apocs aren't as good. If balancing for SW off, I'd buff attack range to 6.5 or something simple. I kinda like the idea of apocs being able to fuck up anything that gets into range, so longer range would be a way to deal with them.

[FlyingMustache]

4 minutes ago, AndrewFord said:

I suppose Apoc's are niche units in sov vs sov mirror. And are very usuable with Iron Curtain since they do 100% damage to buildings. They also have 1.0x buiild time while rhinos have 1.3x, meaning faster to make per $ than rhinos. I'm just saying this because I think this was Westwood's way of balancing them. If SW are off, then obviously Apocs aren't as good. If balancing for SW off, I'd buff attack range to 6.5 or something simple. I kinda like the idea of apocs being able to fuck up anything that gets into range, so longer range would be a way to deal with them.

Yep, that's the idea. They are excellent in sov mirrors, but fail at almost every other aspect. With high HP and heavy armor, they gave them low range and low speed so they could be dealt with. Being unable to shoot on the move like battleforts and masterminds makes them unable to compete in general scenarios. Hence why we suggested giving them shoot move.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

3 hours ago, FlyingMustache said:

His stance? "I'm right because I have anecdotal experience so I don't need actual evidence." 

That's exactly what he did in the map pool threads too. 
Sadly it's how most of the community acts like, I was just playing a 2v2 with KinkyS3x on my team and he complained about the lack of bacons first game, yet he couldn't place one himself, asking for help (ended up blaming me), then later he covers his base with flak cannons while I need anti air, (instead of making a flak track, like quix and gunman did). 
Then he ends up saying that I have no clue about 2v2...

Seems to me that many players in this community can't handle their own faults & a logical discussions are considered arguments about who's better.
Which is why absofuckinlutley nothing good will get done. Though kudos to the guys who can just ignore the community opinion and build it, I'm looking at you Grant/Olaf.

[FlyingMustache]

1 hour ago, FReQuEnZy said:

That's exactly what he did in the map pool threads too. 
Sadly it's how most of the community acts like, I was just playing a 2v2 with KinkyS3x on my team and he complained about the lack of bacons first game, yet he couldn't place one himself, asking for help (ended up blaming me), then later he covers his base with flak cannons while I need anti air, (instead of making a flak track, like quix and gunman did). 
Then he ends up saying that I have no clue about 2v2...

Seems to me that many players in this community can't handle their own faults & a logical discussions are considered arguments about who's better.
Which is why absofuckinlutley nothing good will get done. Though kudos to the guys who can just ignore the community opinion and build it, I'm looking at you Grant/Olaf.

Yes. Human beings are like that. While humans have the capacity to be rational, it's not the norm. This is why being critical and analytical is important. Proper debate is important to eliminate the emotionally driven and illogical human component and filter out bad ideas. It's not possible with all people though, most succumb to the primitive ape arrogance that still exists inside us today.

Edited February 12, 2018 by FlyingMustache

[Lud0wig]

I have an idea, let's share a normal map with what would be at least close to balanced, using the info which was already specified here, we can fine-tune it and this way we can test what we write.

[LeOwNzAll]

Anyway what the point of this mod ?

Make a mod with the unit that you want, a Super-Kirov; a fast V3; add president for IFV in regular game bla-bla-bla.

For specific rules there are specific games. Host a game FFG with your own mod; as lot of players do for TOE or unlimited money map...

For ranked games, rules are same for everyone, it's the main game. Play it, learn it and that's all.

If you lose it's your own fault or your opponent played better. Don't try to find any excuse.

I see all people trying to make libya or germany interesting, and some are trying to make comparison with others games as SC or WC.

In Yuri there are only 3 main factions : Allied / Sov / Yuri. In Sc2 also 3. in WC3 ; 4 factions.

The others country are there to add some "funs" but for ranked games it does not matter about the fun so for sure only 3 nations will be taken. Even if you buff TD or Tesla Tank; maybe these nations will be finally better in major cases so people will always choose Germany for Allied, and Russia for Sov.

[FlyingMustache]

@LeOwNzAll The point was simply to mod what was unanimous. The only thing that seems that way is preventing mags from attacking up a hill. People can't agree on anything.

[Legolas]

making eagles shoot 2 times(with half of the previous strength in each shot) is what korea really needs.thank you very much for the idea martin. i think no one would argue having that change in korea(to make it more useful against flaks because it makes them harder to dodge)

[LeOwNzAll]

3 hours ago, FlyingMustache said:

@LeOwNzAll The point was simply to mod what was unanimous. The only thing that seems that way is preventing mags from attacking up a hill. People can't agree on anything.

I agree people can’t agree for one thing.

for example, it means mag could not attack if he is under the hill? 

I think that’s a bad idea in certain map. Hidden valley or dust bowl to catch chopper would be very hard. Choppers can deal vs discs... 

and certainly others map that I’m not thinking about. 

Attacking a base up on the hill would be very hard, especially vs allied, snow valley for example also.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

35 minutes ago, LeOwNzAll said:

for example, it means mag could not attack if he is under the hill? 

It would be like in my map, where Magnetrons can't attack buildings and vehicles on-top of a cliff.
It can be configured separately as well, only unable to attack buildings on cliff or only unable to attack vehicles on cliff.

I would also recommend applying the same change to the mastermind, as it's currently able to mind control units sitting on-top of a cliff.

[LeOwNzAll]

that's what i thought, not playable for a yuri player to attack any allied on cliff. And can't catch chopper. 

[[CC] RaVaGe]

Doesn't a combination of gattling tanks and disks beat choppers?

Soviet can't attack Allied on a cliff as well.

Edited February 12, 2018 by FReQuEnZy

[Ford (retired)]

Tough crowd for patch suggestions.

17 hours ago, LeOwNzAll said:

Anyway what the point of this mod ?

Make a mod with the unit that you want, a Super-Kirov; a fast V3; add president for IFV in regular game bla-bla-bla.

For specific rules there are specific games. Host a game FFG with your own mod; as lot of players do for TOE or unlimited money map...

For ranked games, rules are same for everyone, it's the main game. Play it, learn it and that's all.

If you lose it's your own fault or your opponent played better. Don't try to find any excuse.

I see all people trying to make libya or germany interesting, and some are trying to make comparison with others games as SC or WC.

In Yuri there are only 3 main factions : Allied / Sov / Yuri. In Sc2 also 3. in WC3 ; 4 factions.

The others country are there to add some "funs" but for ranked games it does not matter about the fun so for sure only 3 nations will be taken. Even if you buff TD or Tesla Tank; maybe these nations will be finally better in major cases so people will always choose Germany for Allied, and Russia for Sov.

The point of a post like this is to get as much input and bounce ideas for balance changes, everyone has their own approach to balance obviously, but someone who wants to make a balance map can take in multiple things into consideration whether something is op or underpowered and experiment. From what I hear, the overall consensus is that Yuri is an op faction, and Germany and Russia kinda suck. But I see people claim people aren't good enuff blah blah blah to talk about balance; Balance designers for games are most often NOT the best at the game. You don't need godly mechanical skill in order to understand how a balanced game should function.

[ZiGZaG]

22 hours ago, FReQuEnZy said:

Doesn't a combination of gattling tanks and disks beat choppers?

Soviet can't attack Allied on a cliff as well.

Not really siege are too fast.

Deploy siege or use v3?

So can allies with bf/ggi ifv. For this reason id suggest you dont change the mastermind?

Thoughts?

 

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by ZiGZaG

[FlyingMustache]

19 hours ago, AndrewFord said:

Tough crowd for patch suggestions.

The point of a post like this is to get as much input and bounce ideas for balance changes, everyone has their own approach to balance obviously, but someone who wants to make a balance map can take in multiple things into consideration whether something is op or underpowered and experiment. From what I hear, the overall consensus is that Yuri is an op faction, and Germany and Russia kinda suck. But I see people claim people aren't good enuff blah blah blah to talk about balance; Balance designers for games are most often NOT the best at the game. You don't need godly mechanical skill in order to understand how a balanced game should function.

Exactly. What you see above is just ad hominem. Ad hominem is just a weak attempt to discredit the speaker without actually challenging the idea.

Edited February 13, 2018 by FlyingMustache

[[CC] RaVaGe]

1 hour ago, ZiGZaG said:

Deploy siege or use v3?

So can allies with bf/ggi ifv. For this reason id suggest you dont change the mastermind?

Yeah, I already considered that and came to the conclusion that the MM should indeed be able to Mind Control up a cliff.
That leaves the Soviet side though, Deployed Siege or V3 are kinda slow to get into the position of firing, especially against mobile targets against camping targets sure, though magnetrons/bf ontop of cliffs would give Soviets a bit of a headache.

[ZiGZaG]

On 12/02/2018 at 9:21 PM, LeOwNzAll said:

that's what i thought, not playable for a yuri player to attack any allied on cliff. And can't catch chopper. 

This is actually a good point, i didnt consider this, on HV or dustbowl it might hurt a yuri badly. On HV you would definetly lose your oils, but i suppose disks or mms would work?

On the plus side it would make yuri playable on the vast majority of maps.

Edited February 17, 2018 by ZiGZaG