How can new people learn? (standard of play)

[AchromicWhite]

I've talked about this so many times, and I just keep finding these people. The last guy I played wasn't even that new. I've seen him around here for at LEAST a year, maybe more.
Yet not only can he make almost no progress, he's only just learning how to set up a match.

If a game you play is that unstable, why would you continue to play the game? We'll just be losing players to other games while we don't have a feature for standard play.
Part of the issue with having a standard play mode is that it's almost impossible to get a consensus on what it should look like, but even if we can get MOST of something like that up and running, it'll give an idea of how the game should be played... even if people don't like all of the features of a standard mode and go back to sand box set up and just copy MOST of what's in a standard mode (change the parts they didn't like), that'll help to bring some stability.

After I had this match, I did explain to him that starting with too many credits messes up the game, and that the original designers capped it at 10,000. And I gave him and rematch and a good chunk of advice to get him going. Thing is... I shouldn't have to do that just to get someone STARTED. They should be able to start themselves though an intuitive system.

What will it take to get a standard game mode for C&C?? Tell me, I'm willing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuhOsK-uGMU&feature=youtu.be

[X3M]

You know, this discussion has been done a bit to much for my taste. I don't think things are going to change.

A button that says "normal game". Setting money to 10k. No crates. And only allows for normal maps.

I see no other option. And right now, all we can do is wait until the admins take action.

[AchromicWhite]

50 minutes ago, X3M said:

You know, this discussion has been done a bit to much for my taste. I don't think things are going to change.

A button that says "normal game". Setting money to 10k. No crates. And only allows for normal maps.

I see no other option. And right now, all we can do is wait until the admins take action.

And that's the thing... nothing seems to move them.
I think they genuinely don't understand how much of a problem it is. I'm convinced that we DO lose a lot of players because of this issue.
I just don't know how to tell them. The last time we had this issue we had a "advanced AI" option, that made harvesters chase bikes. It was hell... I pretty much had to harass funky to get him to change just THAT. God knows what I have to do to get them to see that this is a serious problem that's hurting not only the integrity of the game, but more importantly, it's hurting the ability for new players that want to be competitive from having a fun time.

[NerevarII]

Wait, it's been a while since I've been on cncnet, and haven't looked at it recently......there's options for these things now for the vanilla games? I guess I'm confused as to what is going on exactly.

[AchromicWhite]

3 minutes ago, NerevarII said:

Wait, it's been a while since I've been on cncnet, and haven't looked at it recently......there's options for these things now for the vanilla games? I guess I'm confused as to what is going on exactly.

Well, if you were around during the WWchat days at all, you'll know that there was only a few options to change and maps you could choose from.
Units could only go up to 12 with bases on, and you could only have 9999 credits etc.

Now, we can not only have as many credits as we like and as many units as we like, we can have a re-deployable MCV and any maps we chuck together.
This is fine, in a sense that there's just more options and we can choose to play how we like, but regarding any competitive play, the standard for what a normal match looks like is getting increasingly blurred. Not TOO bad if you were around in the WWChat days and know the limits for these things; you just set up the game as you know it should be, but if you don't...
Then you end up starting with too much money (helipads WITH a helicopter build VERY fast and so you can just spam then right at the start of the game), and on a map with too much tiberium (obviously troops can't go walking int he green crystals, so this messes up unit movements).
Can make for a laugh, but if you're new, then you'll think that this is the actual game... Yet it them just feels like a mod. There's no space in an environment like that to learn and improve, so naturally, people just think that the game is dumb and just leave.
Which is sad, because 20 years after it's release, we're still pushing the tactical limits of the game.

Now, we might think that a quick fix would be to just have a norm game be using only the WW maps and WW original settings, but some of them are quite bad. Crates almost always make the victor by whom finds good crates, and many of the WW maps are simply not that well balanced. Our whole community has made some fantastic maps that allow for a range of tactics and help to bring more balance to the game, where the designers failed a little.
I've written a comprehensive map design thread here: https://forums.cncnet.org/topic/8062-understanding-map-design/

While maps are almost impossible to completely balance, we can help to make them somewhat more balanced and at least place standards on them, like NOT having tiberium everywhere. For maps that have all the standards that we might like, we could them simply have an archetype system to file the different types of maps, and make sure that we have a good variety. I've made a thread on this in the past: https://forums.cncnet.org/topic/7108-map-archetypes/

By having these systems be an obvious way to set up a match, we could help new people to learn and increase the player base. It's also important to keep the more sandbox version where you can make the game any way you want, as there are people who come in frequently and enjoy that, too.

[NerevarII]

Oh man I better start shelling out maps ASAP then.

 

I see what you mean though, I remember those old days....and I remember a few years ago on cncnet as well. My first match back somebody spammed v2s and won, with nothing but v2s........I forget what happened exactly, I think it was a modded map, or a vanilla balance change that needed to be fixed.

 

Anyway, thank cleared up a lot for me, and I'll check out those links (even though I already know how to balance maps, there's always something that can be learned!)

[ore_truck]

It gets worse if there's a capturable neutral con yard at the starting positions.... with both sides tech!! ?

[AchromicWhite]

1 hour ago, ore_truck said:

It gets worse if there's a capturable neutral con yard at the starting positions.... with both sides tech!! ?

Oh yeah, how could I forget.

[chem]

Elephant chem is here!

 

I now only release and spread quality maps with a good meta, as best as my  knowledge will allow (excluding test maps I try before I make a proper version if they are well received/play well)

I cant delete HJK special edition from existence or others but I deleted them from my folder and I wont be making anything like them again.

I  personally think we should make changes towards better map quality, there are so many good maps now it seems a shame that blocky broken crappy maps  are allowed to circulate, Im pretty sure if all the crappy money maps were gone these players would just move onto maps like blistering sands which still has plenty of money but do have a proper balance and meta.

It would be good to see high money done away with, the helis, the max unit glitch, the boring way it plays, how it breaks the game, its nearly all bad.  

Proper standard of play can only be a good thing. Its only going to raise the quality of the multiplayer experience.

 Id also like to send my gratitude to our mods I think we are very very lucky to be able to play this awesome game from our childhoods.

I will clear up my map folder so I don't make a further mess of the custom map folder at large.

I do not oppose the changes! You have my vote and we have a full consensus!

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

Edited July 29, 2018 by chem

[AchromicWhite]

Well, that's the thing. We can't get rid of the maps... but then, if people enjoy them, and that's what they want to play; why stop them?

This isn't about telling people how to play, it's about explaining the difference between a sandbox styled game and well designed environment for a match.
There needs to be an intuitive (not explained in words, but something they can just see i front of them) way for people to see the difference between the two, so that they can choose.

As it stands, there's no way for them to see the difference.

[chem]

8 hours ago, AchromicWhite said:

Well, that's the thing. We can't get rid of the maps... but then, if people enjoy them, and that's what they want to play; why stop them?

This isn't about telling people how to play, it's about explaining the difference between a sandbox styled game and well designed environment for a match.
There needs to be an intuitive (not explained in words, but something they can just see i front of them) way for people to see the difference between the two, so that they can choose.

As it stands, there's no way for them to see the difference.

 I see, how do you want to see it implemented? 

What changes would need to be made so that new/people could clearly tell the difference? 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2018 by chem

[NerevarII]

Maybe have a label, that you can mouse hover over for further explanation, that explains it and shows simply? For example:

 

-Fun Map (Hover Over For Details)

-Competitive Map (Hover ov blah blah)

 

Maps could default "Uncategorized" until a mod or someone decides what it should fall under.

[AchromicWhite]

Well I talked about this when I drew up ideas regarding map standards.
The hardest part was getting people to actually respond to the threads in detail.

I even wrote up a questionnaire to quickly gather data on what the community thought... but no one wanted to fill it out.
https://forums.cncnet.org/topic/8483-tournament-map-standards-and-variables/

[NerevarII]

In game advertising could help. At least, from my experience anyway

[AchromicWhite]

3 minutes ago, NerevarII said:

In game advertising could help. At least, from my experience anyway

Well I think we could have somewhere in forum where maps are submitted to be used in standard matches (or competitive, or however we want to name it).
We make sure that there's a clear list of what the map must have and what it can't have (terrain needs to graphically fit together etc, no mass tib blocking attack paths etc), and then have a team of people who figure out it's archetype. If it passes the test, it then receives it's archetype and is placed into the official list of standard maps.

If you start a "standard" match in lobby, you're given a list of all the maps (their archetype stated), and you can search for them through archetypes and/or by name.
The settings are mostly locked:

Unit count: 0
Credits: 5000-10000 (optional)

Bases: on
Tiberium: on
Crates: off
Separate helipad: optional
Cap the Flag: off
MCV redeploy: off

You could even set up a system to find a random map. Which could make tournament style matches pretty interesting.

[NerevarII]

I see.

 

" no mass tib blocking attack paths "

I could actually see a lot of strategy with that, denies infantry, but allows vehicles, among other things. Like, a flank of infantry and a few vehicles to start the flank, then the massive vehicle flank crosses the tib field. I mean a lot could be done, that's one example.

 

I mean what's been discussed so far seems like it should be implemented right away. I can't foresee any issues from this, and nothing negative from community feedback. It's not like it'll hurt anything, you know?

 

Also, are all lobbies like that with locked options? I hope not

[AchromicWhite]

46 minutes ago, NerevarII said:

I see.

 

" no mass tib blocking attack paths "

I could actually see a lot of strategy with that, denies infantry, but allows vehicles, among other things. Like, a flank of infantry and a few vehicles to start the flank, then the massive vehicle flank crosses the tib field. I mean a lot could be done, that's one example.

 

I mean what's been discussed so far seems like it should be implemented right away. I can't foresee any issues from this, and nothing negative from community feedback. It's not like it'll hurt anything, you know?

 

Also, are all lobbies like that with locked options? I hope not

Yep, if some paths were blocked with Tib, that indeed could make for an interesting choice for strategy in certain areas. It's worth noting that Nod uses almost all light vehicles for attack, while GDI almost always has accompanying infantry.
So while having some areas blocked off can create certain advantages for Nod, if the whole map is covered, it just stops GDI from attacking.

Yeah, I don't see it hurting anything. And I'd be happy to continue seeing how it changes the match environment and evolve it/revoke it if issues came up.

How do you mean? Lobbies don't have locked options, but because there's nothing to show the difference between how a standard match plays vs a sandbox game, people trying to learn often just turn them all on etc.

[NerevarII]

Good input.

 

" The settings are mostly locked:

Unit count: 0
Credits: 5000-10000 (optional)

Bases: on
Tiberium: on
Crates: off
Separate helipad: optional
Cap the Flag: off
MCV redeploy: off
"

 

You said they were mostly locked, which confused me :P

[chem]

13 hours ago, NerevarII said:

Good input.

 

" The settings are mostly locked:

Unit count: 0
Credits: 5000-10000 (optional)

Bases: on
Tiberium: on
Crates: off
Separate helipad: optional
Cap the Flag: off
MCV redeploy: off
"

 

You said they were mostly locked, which confused me

the above  + only certain balanced maps

= Ranked/competition game?

 

Could it be as simple as that? On the mods side of things.  

 

The difficult part about balance is the map making . Which is down the map makers and the pros.

 

By the way welcome to the community if you just joined Nerevarll! Whats your name  in the game?

 

I would say helis on always since they are part of the official balance of the units in the game. Alot of pro build orders revolve around helis, like the flamer heli rush, or the heli scout killer start and helis off makes this not viable and changes the balance

 

Would we need to go back to slow plane drop offs? That would be closer to what the original game is, but it would also be even more of a flukey way to win ie if you are on the left as nod you will die vs someone you are very  close to in  skill, I used to have matches with guys that whatever position we started determined who won nearly every time.  Slowing the planes would only make it worse,  but isn't it an unfair unofficial disadvantage for GDI players, to have the planes fast?

 

Money I would like at a constant but maybe it has to be varied between 5000 and 9999, what was it originally set at? Was it just random? That's a tricky one. Seems a bit cheap when someone jacks the money up or down when you don't notice.   Also we are all used to 9999 not 5000

Edited August 2, 2018 by chem

[AchromicWhite]

On 8/2/2018 at 5:22 AM, NerevarII said:

Good input.

 

" The settings are mostly locked:

Unit count: 0
Credits: 5000-10000 (optional)

Bases: on
Tiberium: on
Crates: off
Separate helipad: optional
Cap the Flag: off
MCV redeploy: off
"

 

You said they were mostly locked, which confused me

Yeah, so the idea is that you'd only be able to change credits and sep. helipad. The rest would not be changed in a standard match.

As it stands, you can just turn the credits up to 99999 turn on crates and Cap the Flag and whatever. You can just make a mess of it if you don't know what you're doing. Which is fine for having some sort of friendly sandbox mode... but as soon as you want a match with some integrity, it's just a mess.

[NerevarII]

Aha so like my first match since coming back that i had today, not the best experience. I didnt pay attention and the match started on max speed, unlimited credoits, and some whacky rules, I was frantic trying to figure out what to do haha. It was kind of fun but, not good for shaking of my rust. It was hard finding a standard match today too But I'm sure there's plenty of them to be found, and there's some people I've scheduled matches with so there's that. But i now understand a lot better what the situation is like.

 

Something definitely should be implemented. A lot of cool people playing though, which is always nice

[AchromicWhite]

20 hours ago, chem said:

the above  + only certain balanced maps

= Ranked/competition game?

 

Could it be as simple as that? On the mods side of things.  

 

The difficult part about balance is the map making . Which is down the map makers and the pros.

 

By the way welcome to the community if you just joined Nerevarll! Whats your name  in the game?

 

I would say helis on always since they are part of the official balance of the units in the game. Alot of pro build orders revolve around helis, like the flamer heli rush, or the heli scout killer start and helis off makes this not viable and changes the balance

 

Would we need to go back to slow plane drop offs? That would be closer to what the original game is, but it would also be even more of a flukey way to win ie if you are on the left as nod you will die vs someone you are very  close to in  skill, I used to have matches with guys that whatever position we started determined who won nearly every time.  Slowing the planes would only make it worse,  but isn't it an unfair unofficial disadvantage for GDI players, to have the planes fast?

 

Money I would like at a constant but maybe it has to be varied between 5000 and 9999, what was it originally set at? Was it just random? That's a tricky one. Seems a bit cheap when someone jacks the money up or down when you don't notice.   Also we are all used to 9999 not 5000

Regarding a proper competitive match system, yeah, the two big factors are settings and map.
Regarding map balance... I've come to the conclusion that it's near impossible to actually balance a map, which is why I'd rather just see a map archetype system to list the maps into different categories.
We'd soon find which categories suit what side better. This would not only help up to make more balanced maps, but also have us know, before a match, if one side might be a bit favoured.
You could then play a few maps against someone on a range of maps to see who's better. (utilise different skills on different maps)

Sep. Helipads just changes if the helis start on the pads when built, or if you build them separately. Because multiple pads makes them build faster, it usually doesn't make much difference... but it does mean that you can make just a pad and a transport, rather than needing to have spend money on the fighter, before making a transport. I think people can just choose how they like it, I don't see it as an issue either way.

I think the new cargo plane is fine. If we wanted to officially go back to the original than we should play low resolution and only play WW maps... etc. I'm never conservative for the sake of being conservative; I try to go with what will give the best results.

I did actually think about someone who might put the money lower when there opponent didn't realise... it could be an issue.
I actually originally thought to just lock this at 10,000, but when I did a discussion on it, a couple of people said that they liked the idea of playing 7000 etc. It might be true that lower than 10,000 might work better. IDK.
Maybe it should be locked at 10,000. It's a tricky one.
The original client allowed 0-9999 credits. I thought that now allowing less than 5000 would probably be about right.

6 minutes ago, NerevarII said:

Aha so like my first match since coming back that i had today, not the best experience. I didnt pay attention and the match started on max speed, unlimited credoits, and some whacky rules, I was frantic trying to figure out what to do haha. It was kind of fun but, not good for shaking of my rust. It was hard finding a standard match today too But I'm sure there's plenty of them to be found, and there's some people I've scheduled matches with so there's that. But i now understand a lot better what the situation is like.

 

Something definitely should be implemented. A lot of cool people playing though, which is always nice

Yeah, I usually have to be the maker of a match to get it set up right.

Nice to see someone having a crack at TD. It's a cool game... more diverse than RA1, IMO.

[NerevarII]

Haha no it was Red Alert for me today but you made TD sound inviting so I'm going to bump that up on my list to jump into next

[chem]

1 hour ago, NerevarII said:

Haha no it was Red Alert for me today but you made TD sound inviting so I'm going to bump that up on my list to jump into next

:-))) , if you see me in game remind me of who you are and if you want I will set up a balanced team game so we can make sure you can have fun and not get rushed too quickly for your first few games, cheers bro!

Edited August 3, 2018 by chem

[chem]

1 hour ago, AchromicWhite said:

Regarding a proper competitive match system, yeah, the two big factors are settings and map.
Regarding map balance... I've come to the conclusion that it's near impossible to actually balance a map, which is why I'd rather just see a map archetype system to list the maps into different categories.
We'd soon find which categories suit what side better. This would not only help up to make more balanced maps, but also have us know, before a match, if one side might be a bit favoured.
You could then play a few maps against someone on a range of maps to see who's better. (utilise different skills on different maps)

Sep. Helipads just changes if the helis start on the pads when built, or if you build them separately. Because multiple pads makes them build faster, it usually doesn't make much difference... but it does mean that you can make just a pad and a transport, rather than needing to have spend money on the fighter, before making a transport. I think people can just choose how they like it, I don't see it as an issue either way.

I think the new cargo plane is fine. If we wanted to officially go back to the original than we should play low resolution and only play WW maps... etc. I'm never conservative for the sake of being conservative; I try to go with what will give the best results.

I did actually think about someone who might put the money lower when there opponent didn't realise... it could be an issue.
I actually originally thought to just lock this at 10,000, but when I did a discussion on it, a couple of people said that they liked the idea of playing 7000 etc. It might be true that lower than 10,000 might work better. IDK.
Maybe it should be locked at 10,000. It's a tricky one.
The original client allowed 0-9999 credits. I thought that now allowing less than 5000 would probably be about right.

Yeah, I usually have to be the maker of a match to get it set up right.

Nice to see someone having a crack at TD. It's a cool game... more diverse than RA1, IMO.

I see so its not about staying true to the original its about modernising it a bit bringing in progress made in rts games over the years,.

Good im glad the airdrop stays the same, that would be a nightmare starting on the left side with nod.

Yea the heli pad as an option sounds good, then you can agree or disagree to play before it starts. As long as its not permanently off that's good.

With the money I guess it will just have to be up to the player to look out for the settings so they don't get tricked.

Yea its super complex to know how the factions balance at a high level, and how the map affects that balance, we can still estimate, and the  elite pros can also advise on which maps are most balanced,  and also like you said  play test them,  that while not perfect is a far better standard than the original maps and most of the custom maps.

The game and factions are not perfectly balanced the start positions are not perfect, its never going to be perfect but we can get it to a really high standard, and we are lucky that such an old game balances as well as it does we almost have modern balance quality on our old favourite childhood game.

It seems like everyone's all in consensus even on the finer details, many of which can still be optional. So now its all up to the mods, whether they add the ranked/competition game or not.

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by chem