[2] Border patrol -Updated 1.2.2019

[Tkragon]

Border patrol (2)

Two nations fight it out at this strategic point at the border.  Whoever controls this border choke point can re-supply the war efforts abroad, tho smugglers have found "hidden" path ways in the mountains. Each starting position has a large ore field, a small ore field & a decent gem field near. The tech oil derrick provides extra funds if the war goes long. Both sides can also capture an air field to call in reinforcements.  Time is of the essence commander!

Download: border patrol (2) v1.51 [tkragon].map

 

border patrol (2) v1.02 [tkragon].map

border patrol (2) v1.5 [tkragon].map

Edited February 2, 2019 by Tkragon
new map version

[[CC] RaVaGe]

Ground looks too flat, deform it a bit.

[Tkragon]

8 hours ago, RaVaGe said:

Ground looks too flat, deform it a bit.

Updated!

[[CC] RaVaGe]

Still too flat, stop ironing your maps! ?

[Tkragon]

11 minutes ago, RaVaGe said:

Still too flat, stop ironing your maps! ?

With all due respect, I like it the way it is now. I imagined the map flat with cliffs in the middle when I made a sketch, but I agreed with your initial comment that some hills around the edges would give some extra detail to the map. I am however working on two other maps that are much more diverse that hope fully won't feel flat to you (see a preview of one bellow) 

Any other suggestions in terms of balance of this (Border patrol) map, enough ore & gems and so forth? 

A work in progress preview of the map mentioned above:

[[a]WarZiLLa]

Try to avoid mirrored maps, also small entrances make it campy, I bet anyone who takes one of those hilled lands in the middle won't be driven out of it easily.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

3 hours ago, Tkragon said:

ny other suggestions in terms of balance of this (Border patrol) map, enough ore & gems and so forth? 

Would need to play test it as with all maps.
Visual based balance suggestions are just guesses.

Join this discord and get some pro players to play it with you.
https://discord.gg/z6bRD7j

 

3 hours ago, Tkragon said:

A work in progress preview of the map mentioned above:

Larger ramps for main entrances to the player bases, middle plateaus and side plateaus.

All your ramps are the same size, ramps affect gameplay a lot, for example how easy it is to defend and lock down an entrance to an area.
Having small back door ramps and large front entrances makes games more interesting, they control the flow of the game and what options are available to players.

Design them with gameplay in mind, if you put lot of resources in an area of the map you should keep the area accessible so players can easily attack those areas and deny the opponents those resources.

Design high risk and low risk areas to add interesting dynamic to your maps.

 

22 minutes ago, [a]WarZiLLa said:

Try to avoid mirrored maps

Mirrored / Symmetrical maps are easy to balance and are generally quite popular.
Save yourself the headache from taking this advice.
 

[Tkragon]

40 minutes ago, RaVaGe said:

Visual based balance suggestions are just guesses.

I meant any other suggestions, like you had for my other map in the other thread ( Farlake). I guess the word balance wasn't the right one to convey what I intended.

43 minutes ago, RaVaGe said:

Larger ramps for main entrances to the player bases, middle plateaus and side plateaus.

All your ramps are the same size, ramps affect gameplay a lot, for example how easy it is to defend and lock down an entrance to an area.

There are 3 sizes of ramps. Depending on which plateaus you look at. By size Main > Middle > Side.  The idea was that the main plateaus is easily defended, as you cannot stay there forever or you run out of resources. That being said the map is a work in progress so I'm open to changes.

 

48 minutes ago, RaVaGe said:

Design them with gameplay in mind, if you put lot of resources in an area of the map you should keep the area accessible so players can easily attack those areas and deny the opponents those resources.

Design high risk and low risk areas to add interesting dynamic to your maps.

I'm guessing you're referring here to the middle two ore patches in particular? With those two patches I was aiming at a TOE dynamic. As each team has it's own plateaus there too.

 

1 hour ago, [a]WarZiLLa said:

Try to avoid mirrored maps, also small entrances make it campy, I bet anyone who takes one of those hilled lands in the middle won't be driven out of it easily.

I have to agree with RaVaGe. Mirrored maps are quite popular. The number of times someone has complained that one side has the advantage because A,B & X on "non-mirrored" maps...smh. Anyways the small entrances are by design. It can make the game campy yes, but it's on the player to not let the other camp, or to deal with it if they do. Kind of like Hidden Valley, tho I will admit HV is a bit more open  

[[CC] RaVaGe]

18 minutes ago, Tkragon said:

That being said the map is a work in progress so I'm open to changes.

Render a larger preview so I can draw on it! ?

Edited January 31, 2019 by RaVaGe

[[a]WarZiLLa]

3 hours ago, Tkragon said:

I have to agree with RaVaGe. Mirrored maps are quite popular. The number of times someone has complained that one side has the advantage because A,B & X on "non-mirrored" maps...smh. Anyways the small entrances are by design. It can make the game campy yes, but it's on the player to not let the other camp, or to deal with it if they do. Kind of like Hidden Valley, tho I will admit HV is a bit more open  

 

How is that? do you find Heck, Jungle, Montana, Caverns, LBL, Heart mirrored? even CV isn't mirrored.

Country Swing is mirrored, yet one of the most awful maps that got lot of complains because of it unfairity. Also I'm not commenting about small entrances, you will find out when no one plays it, you're more likely making a new Rakoool or Wasteland map.

 

4 hours ago, RaVaGe said:

Mirrored / Symmetrical maps are easy to balance and are generally quite popular.

Save yourself the headache from taking this advice.
 

 

Easy to balance, but not as easy to create, you will have to check carefully for symmetry and that takes a huge amount to time.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

People have used waypoint grids on maps to measure or plan layouts quite easily and also using copy and paste to make terrain helps a lot.

[Tkragon]

1 hour ago, [a]WarZiLLa said:

 

How is that? do you find Heck, Jungle, Montana, Caverns, LBL, Heart mirrored? even CV isn't mirrored.

Country Swing is mirrored, yet one of the most awful maps that got lot of complains because of it unfairity.

Country Swing is one of the most played 2v2 maps ( at least in my experience) if that is the fate of my map so be it  joking aside, Cs is played a lot and is mirrored, so is Hidden Valley, Tournament Map B, Dune Patrol, Meat Grinder, River Rampage, Dry heat, TOE, Offense Defense, Arena 33, Hex Bay. And that's just off the top of my head. Tho this is my personal experience in what I see most when I look for games. You seem to be playing the game longer than me, I won't argue if you have different experiences.

 

1 hour ago, [a]WarZiLLa said:

Also I'm not commenting about small entrances, you will find out when no one plays it, you're more likely making a new Rakoool or Wasteland map.

The small entrances are kind of the point of this map. It was designed that way. And again you list some of the more popular and more played maps on CnCnet. That's not bad, just not what you're looking for in a map I suppose.  As for no-one playing it. I'm guessing there are tones of maps that no-one is playing. Creating just one map ( in the future when I'm better at it) that people will play often will be considered a huge success in my eyes.

[XXxPrePxX]

@Tkragon Few comments:

1) The entrance on border patrol - 
This is a bad idea and will ruin the map. I know you were trying to go for a certain feel with it, but it ruins the map from my experience. 
It's a very tiny entrance way and it's the ONLY way to enter through land. This destroys the flow of gameplay and also heavily favors allieds over soviets. It makes scouting useless (as teams will have the garrisons early halting any early scout, especially from a soviet player). It stops the flow of any land units.  It's very easy to build towards and set up shop and once a person owns the middle/cliffs, the game is essentially over. 

Essentially, it gives the map a 'gimmick' feel which is what aWarZilla was saying when it becomes another 'rekool' or gimmick based map. The map is SO camp-heavy due to the entrance, that the game becomes who can suicide kill their opponents oil derrick first wins. 

A potential solution might to just widen out the gap. That way, at least, if the soviets can somehow kill the garrisons, then they can maneuver past it. However this is still dubious. Maps with one small guarded entrance just aren't very successful. 

2) You guys are saying CS is mirrored? Maybe my understanding is off, but the reason why CS is unfair is directly because it's NOT mirrored in terms of ore per side. People love the mirrored parts of CS but hate the fact that the ore is not mirrored. 

3) I think creating a balanced non-mirrored map is a work of art and ultimately the most aesthetic and 'cool' maps are non-mirrored. However, mirrored maps are efficient and great for their purpose, so I'm a fan of both. 

4) Your Woodland plains map has A LOT of potential. I think that could be a huge hit. 

Edited February 1, 2019 by XXxPrePxX

[YosefAnan]

looks a good map 

[Tkragon]

8 hours ago, XXxPrePxX said:

@Tkragon Few comments:

1) The entrance on border patrol - 
This is a bad idea and will ruin the map. I know you were trying to go for a certain feel with it, but it ruins the map from my experience. 
It's a very tiny entrance way and it's the ONLY way to enter through land. This destroys the flow of gameplay and also heavily favors allieds over soviets. It makes scouting useless (as teams will have the garrisons early halting any early scout, especially from a soviet player). It stops the flow of any land units.  It's very easy to build towards and set up shop and once a person owns the middle/cliffs, the game is essentially over. 

Essentially, it gives the map a 'gimmick' feel which is what aWarZilla was saying when it becomes another 'rekool' or gimmick based map. The map is SO camp-heavy due to the entrance, that the game becomes who can suicide kill their opponents oil derrick first wins. 

A potential solution might to just widen out the gap. That way, at least, if the soviets can somehow kill the garrisons, then they can maneuver past it. However this is still dubious. Maps with one small guarded entrance just aren't very successful. 

While I've not tested this map with the best players, in the cca 10 games we did play it hasn't really come to a camping game. Soviets were usually faster to the bunkers ( on both sides ), and allied players had an easy time to clear the way with prisms & rockiees. Siege choppers were a big help when allied controlled the border. I do understand the concerns however. A wider entrance seems like a nice idea, that keeps the feel of the map but also keeps the flow like you said.

 

8 hours ago, XXxPrePxX said:

4) Your Woodland plains map has A LOT of potential. I think that could be a huge hit. 

Glad to hear! If you have any suggestions let's hear them.

 

17 hours ago, RaVaGe said:

Render a larger preview so I can draw on it! ?

[[CC] RaVaGe]

• Add more ramps at player bases to make those areas easier to manage.
• Move gems closer to players so they can choose to harvest them early game for a faster start.
• Add ore instead of those gems to add 2nd stage expansions before moving to middle.
• Add gems in the corners to bring more focus to those parts of the maps in the late game, then players can choose to be draw out for more resources or stick together in the middle for the ore.
• Remove some trees around the cliffs to improve movement and allow players to harass the gems in the corners or to use the backdoor ramp for the side plateau.

Edited February 1, 2019 by RaVaGe

[Kikematamitos]

For me is a camping map Why not make destructible walls instead that gorges? 

[Tkragon]

19 minutes ago, Kikematamitos said:

For me is a camping map Why not make destructible walls instead that gorges? 

Because

1. It's not what I wanted to do. 

2. Having walls instead of those cliffs would have made the map ugly AF in my opinion. #NoBorderWallLmao

3. A campy map is still a map. 

4. It's only campy if you allow the opposite player to camp ( Just like HV )

 

 

[Tkragon]

3 hours ago, RaVaGe said:

• Add more ramps at player bases to make those areas easier to manage.
• Move gems closer to players so they can choose to harvest them early game for a faster start.
• Add ore instead of those gems to add 2nd stage expansions before moving to middle.
• Add gems in the corners to bring more focus to those parts of the maps in the late game, then players can choose to be draw out for more resources or stick together in the middle for the ore.
• Remove some trees around the cliffs to improve movement and allow players to harass the gems in the corners or to use the backdoor ramp for the side plateau.

I'm a bit colorblind, so some of the colors were hard to differentiate but I think I managed.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

Nice, looks good, only thing that's missing is some sparsely spaced trees and better terrain texture.

Paint some random trees with the tree tool here and there so Allied players can use their Mirage Tanks a bit easier, though avoid any clumps of trees.
The flat ground without any cover otherwise makes the soviet Rhinos reign supreme.

For texture just pick some dark grass and tile size 1x1 then paint around the grass areas while holding shift (continuous placement).
Around cliffs use rough grass texture.
 

Almost looks like a professional grade map though.

 

On 2nd look the second level ore patches are too small compared to start location there seems almost no incentive for players to expand there, should remove some ore from main patches and then add it to the second level expansion area.

Edited February 1, 2019 by RaVaGe

[Tkragon]

3 hours ago, RaVaGe said:

Nice, looks good, only thing that's missing is some sparsely spaced trees and better terrain texture.

Paint some random trees with the tree tool here and there so Allied players can use their Mirage Tanks a bit easier, though avoid any clumps of trees.
The flat ground without any cover otherwise makes the soviet Rhinos reign supreme.

For texture just pick some dark grass and tile size 1x1 then paint around the grass areas while holding shift (continuous placement).
Around cliffs use rough grass texture.
 

Almost looks like a professional grade map though.

 

On 2nd look the second level ore patches are too small compared to start location there seems almost no incentive for players to expand there, should remove some ore from main patches and then add it to the second level expansion area.

I'll open a new thread for the map tomorrow and post the map with your latest suggestions. Thanks for all your advice and guidance  

Until then I've updated the Border patrol map. Check the original post for the new preview and map.

[XXxPrePxX]

46 minutes ago, Tkragon said:

I'll open a new thread for the map tomorrow and post the map with your latest suggestions. Thanks for all your advice and guidance  

Until then I've updated the Border patrol map. Check the original post for the new preview and map.

Definitely a lot better with the multiple entrances now. Still not sure if I'm sold on the map yet and I don't think it would work well in the competitive scene, but I'd definitely play it and have fun on it. 

[YosefAnan]

Thanks for the new nice map I like it .. to me it should be with the other choosing maps on the official cncnet maps .. I give it 5 stars for you if there are vote ??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7lTwMTsul0

[Tkragon]

2 hours ago, YosefAnan said:

Thanks for the new nice map I like it .. to me it should be with the other choosing maps on the official cncnet maps .. I give it 5 stars for you if there are vote ??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7lTwMTsul0

Thanks! Tho in the video it's the 1.0 version of the map. I assume version 1.5 is better