XXxPrePxX

I would argue that there is reason to do them because there exists no other avenue to compete properly. You can call them FFGs, but if they are stipulated with a set of rules and have results that are recorded, they are no longer FFGs but competitions. The reason to do them is the same reason many players compete on the ladders... to show of their skills and be the best. Unfortunately, I appear to be in the very small minority on this as evident by failed tournaments. I would say that the top players have reached a spot where they 'know' everybody’s skill level and have no interest in gaining skill or competing with each other... exception being players like Matt/Max/Marsh who compete vigorously against anyone.

That's the point I was bringing up in my first post... the disparity in skill level is so huge these days due to a number of variables (few remaining veterans vs. the influx of brand new players due to CNCNet popularity with them). This really hampers any thought of a future revolution of new players and future competitive scene. To combat this, you would need to mass advertise the QM system and create an incentive system (badges) and make QM something that new players can easily enjoy. This was the original thought behind CNCNet team and Frequenzy when we discussed map limits and limiting the number of QM maps to 12. The idea was to give the new players an easier learning curve. However, the argument against that is that it would not help the new players much, rather, we just need an overwhelming amount of lower skilled players enjoying QM such that the veterans rise to the top and only need to compete against other veterans over time and the newbs can have highly competitive 1on1's in the ladder. This would create a learning environment and a very addictive environment for them. It's the unfortunate place we are put in after 16+ years of this game operating :p. I thought there was hope which is why I spent a lot of time working on things, but now I can see it is hopeless. Which is why I am shocked that tournaments around here are so highly frowned upon. It's the only avenue to really compete and have fun for the veterans, but instead we have a very toxic community of veterans who don't really care.

There's no doubt that this is a great thing for the existence of the game. For sure. The level of mods, new maps, recordings in the past few years due to CNCNet and GR popularity has really been an amazing thing. It's not our right to tell people how to play the game or demand that they get better. However, if we want to reach the competitive spirit that us oldies are used to, then something more needs to be done to push these players in the direction otherwise we are stuck with FFGs for the remainder of existence. It's just sad for some of us vets seeing this game gain popularity, but the skill level and competitive spirit dwindle to nothingness. :p. The badge system always promoted YR players to play competitively back on WOL/XWIS lobby days.

To me, I think it has very little to do with the competitive scene. If these players were good enough (and we are assuming they enjoy the game very much to be playing it in 2018) they would have no problem facing off in the competitive scene. There is just too big of a gap in skill level to overcome at this point in time when the avenues aren't there. The only (very small) hope we'd have is for the ladder to gain mainstream appeal here through massive promotion. That way many new players join in at once. It would break if just a few joined in as the few would get stomped right out of the ladder (as that's how it happens now).

I've always thought about this, but the reality is that the community is broke. You have extreme veterans who have played 10++ years on one hand... and they were built from competitive 1on1 games on high activity based ladders. They were able to get matches and compete and learn everything in a timely manner. Now, you don't have those avenues to play competitively and it's extremely hard to start up. If you were training a brand new player today, what would you tell them to do? You'd probably advise them to play competitive 1on1's on official maps, but who is playing that these days? The learning curve is borderline broken now. To further illustrate the point, how do players combat the yuri faction 1on1? If their new, they've never been experienced to real competitive matches as allied/sov vs. Yuri and that is such a different game then normally played. They'll never have the real opportunity to learn this at this point. Anyway, these players that CNCNet has brought back are just playing what's best available to them.. and that's these types of games. They learn from these games and that's what they know. If you want them to play competitively, you have to give them the ability to do so ... through a ladder system. It's an interesting system since CNCNet brought back so many players/new players, but at the same time, there was no avenues to play competitively and the few veterans that stayed are basically a different animal compared to them.

@DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr MustacheX mainly stated most of my thoughts as well. Mustache is a master at trying to get the less used units into the game through simple modifications. I'm personally more of a traditionalist when it comes to Ra2/YR and I enjoy the base game (but would also enjoy some limited modifications). I think I learn towards zigzag's likely approach that all the units are useful in the right scenario (it's just that in competitive 1on1 games, that scenario is few and far between). Being that this is a topic on unanimous changes, I think we need to take a step back and look at the topics main question: If there was one thing you can change what would it be? For me, it would be the magnetrons as stated in this thread. Making them unable to carry miners would solve one of the most annoying issues in the game (the mag miner drop onto the ore ref that basically kills the opponent) and making them unable to take units off of higher cliffs would make it much easier to defend against yuri. These nerfs of the mags would by no means kill the yuri squad, just would take away some of their less skillful play and try to force them to be more skilled with their magnetrons when attacking. Also, I might consider nominating the idea that UFOs shouldn't have health regeneration. Ew.

The player (purple's) skill level doesn't really matter when he played like a Goof to lose that game. As soon as marko had only barracks, he should have been countering the inevitable infantry spam with units like Desos/flak traks / sentrys / conscripts, whatever. What he did was lose the game by making rhinos. In any sense, the point Zig (I think) is trying to make is that every unit has it's uses. Sure... and I for one have been saved many times by Tesla troopers... but... the point still stands that in a typical game, the tesla troopers/ V3's / Russian Tesla tanks / etc. are all very useless units. The tesla trooper (IMO) is the best of a bunch of these units as it does have some very strong rush capabilities, late-game save capabilities, and anti-rush capabilities, but in general they are likely to be built in maybe 1 out of ever 10 games? 1 out of every 15?

I pretty much stated the siege chopper exception in my posts afterwards :p.

If you push the IC timer to 7 minutes, it really negative effects soviets chances vs. Yuri as that's really the only way to attack yuri for the soviet forces. If you push chrono to 5 minutes, I think it helps overall. It's a bit OP at 5 minutes in some instances, but that's ok because right now it is very useless in 1on1 combat. Although, I guess if you make further changes to nerf some yuri units, it's possible a 7 minute IC timer could work.

Plok, Aircrafts is absolutely useless vs. any decent yuri player. It is especially useless when considering the argument that one should go for the power plants. The only aircraft that is useful is siege choppers and that is really due to their ability to be deployed and be used as the soviets only real long distance threat against yuri, but I digress, so here's why harriers attacking the power are usless: 1. The argument is built on the assumption that the yuri player has all his/her eggs in one basket with one bio reactor. This is almost always a false assumption against a good yuri player. A good yuri player will take advantage of the bio reactors by having multiple of them around the base in different areas to make life miserable for the opponent. But let's continue with the assumption that the yuri player DID have just one major bio reactor. 2. Harriers are uselesss against gattling tanks. Gattling tanks are the life blood of the yuri team. Every single yuri player will have gattling tanks out. It's yuri's main unit to do all the dirty work. All it really takes is one gattling tank vs. 4 harriers to take them out, but by the time you have 4 harriers, any decent yuri player will have 3-5++ gattling tanks ready for them. The reason they are so deadly is due to their damage, but mainly due to the fact that they can shoot while running away from harriers/units. So, where flak traks and IFV have to use control + shift and are capable of being hit, gattlings can run directly away from the harriers and still shoot them down. 3. The next assumption you are making is that the player simply won't see the harriers. This is also false in any competitive game. Their very easy to spot and any good yuri player will be able to see them coming and manuever the gattling tanks into position properly. 4. Even in the wildest scenario possible where the 4 harriers effectively take out the bio reactor... yuri builds a new on in a matter of 10 seconds maybe.

I only see 1 post by Heldro here suggesting that plok doesn't know what he's talking about, to which plok responded that he's been playing since 2001. That's when I picked it up and did describe things, but first I was unaware of his skill level. I see nothing wrong with the communication.

Not trying to be egotistical, it's fruitless to discuss the imbalances with someone who hasn't experienced them due to different skill levels. That's my point that i'm trying to respectfully get over to plokite.

Plok out of respect to you, I will detail why I claim that you are a much lesser skilled player (and thus, are wrong) based on your posts: 1. You stated "I find the Genetic Mutator the single useless superweapon in the entire game." This is clearly false by any pro players account. It is such an astoundingly bad statement, that I question whether you have ever competed against a proper yuri player. We have described why the mutator is so deadly in a balanced game in this thread (i.e. it's puts a time limit on the opponents chances to win, because it gives yuri free money endlessly, while sovs/allies have to fight over any last ore). To this you respond: 2. " and is desperate to get money that way, and even got the opportunity to build a superweapon, that means you're not harassing well and/or often enough, and no rebalancing of the Genetic Mutator will change that. " First, it's not about being desperate for the yuri player. It's about getting a free $20,000 instantly.. enough to produce UFO's on 4-5 war factories ensuring an easy win. Next, the fact that you question the opportunity of building a superweapon once again showcases your inexperience against yuri. Almost all games against yuri strictly require superweapons. So much so, that this has been standard operating procedure since the beginning of the game. Third, the comment that one is not 'harassing well' enough is just a bad argument. Assume that the two players are equal. You can't just use this argument. I can say, well the IC is overpowered and you can respond "just harass harder." It makes no sense to the argument. 3. "They are all the more vulnerable the more you rely on fewer Bio Reactors with infantry rather than more empty ones. It's therefore much easier to cut a Yuri player's power, especially with aircraft and artillery. " First, you are right in that it is a weakness to put all your eggs in one basket as yuri does. However, the bio reactors as Frequenzy stated give yuri a great advantage early on. But the pros/cons of bio reactors aren't interesting here, what is interesting is your solution: You suggest to use aircraft against yuri which is a suicide mission. Yuri's gats will mow down any harrier/rocketeer that comes close. And any competitive game would simply not allow that to happen. Once again, showcasing your inexperience against the yuri faction. So, in each reply, you've replied with a comment that really shows you haven't played in competitive battles against a good yuri player. Therefore, you really have no idea what the power of the mutator is, since the problem with the mutator exists most noticeably in games with pro-level play. I can see how you would consider the mutator useless if you are playing low-tier play. I can see how you might use aircraft vs. yuri against a player who isn't good enough to see the air craft and respond quickly.

Come on man, who uses aircraft against yuri's aint-air? I believe there is a skill tier difference between the players posting and you here.

Just because we are talking about the genetic mutator does not mean we'd wish to run away to Ra2. Calm.

In normal 1on1 competitive games, it is pretty typical for every player to have at least 5 miners and be able to build up to superweapons. In fact, that is usually's yuri's primary plan (i.e. they really don't rush players, they play the long game). It's very difficult to rush yuri from either side allies or soviets making it a game of superweapons. You can try rushing a good yuri player early, but you'll lose. It's a game of superweapons, 90%+ time against yuri. With all due respect, I don't think you've played competitively enough to see the effect that a mutator has based on your replies so far. You seem to have a lower skill level, which is fine, but a mutator really doesn't effect that tier of play, but rather the competitive tier.

Plokite, your inability to understand what the mutator does from your first post shows that you don't really know how competitive YR is played. As heldro pointed out, its basically an unlimited money cheat for YR while the sovs/allies are forced to the demands of the map for money. Heldro used an extreme example, but it doesn't have to be that extreme. Think: you have 5 miners that each produce 5 free slave miners, pack them together with say 20 initiates and you have something like 45 brutes that you can grind by basically doing nothing (maybe spending money on 10 initiates). It also recharges every 5 minutes so it's an incredibly luxury late game which is why there is a window of opening that sov/allied player has against yuri and if it closes, then its gg.

Nerf mags by what Zigzag is saying + make them not able to pick up miners.

I'm cool with being a competitor. You know i'll play and you know i'll likely end up getting stomped early :D. So sign me up for some fun, competitive challenges!

You will be in control as much as I am, so your ideas are fine with me. However, I think Kinky+orange vs. Gun_man+ank only need like 2-3 more games to be played (I think it's like 4-3 to Kinky/orange?). So it's best to find a way to get that series done. The others.... it's in your full discretion as to what you'd like to do. I have given the nickname Win4ester admin privledges over the bracket. Sorry I did not see your PM earlier today, just travelled to Florida for the week :D. I won't be as around this week as I have been, so you are in full control wit hthe way you want to approach this.

Can you guys talk in PM or discord or lobby? Or find JSDS/Leo? Or anything here? I mean, we got to get the top of the ladder going, so... anything you guys can do....

I don't know what your deal is. I was in the lobby multiple times willing to take literally anyone as my teammate, and you couldn't give me a time to get online until the last week. In any sense, with the way tournaments work so miserably here, I could have just kicked your team out within the first two weeks (as well as other teams not competing). As a community, we need to try and stick together and get this working, which is why I replaced your team when other teams were ready and even still allow you to play if you get your shit together and match up with one of these teams that need games. Get you and leo on, find scalpem/marsh or Frequenzy/heldro. Have the games recorded, let me know score and boom your in. The team that wants it the most will get it. Oh and my team is out, I got owned by Buffalo/Chandler.

Out of Scalpem/Marsh vs. Freq/Heldro vs. JSDS/Leo, I don't really care who gets games in out of these teams. Just two teams play a series and they got the spot.

Yes, we had to get the games in so Gun_man+ ank took on Kinky+Orange in that spot. If tim/zigzag or Scalpem/Marsh vs. Freq/Heldro have further issues you are free to replace one of those teams to get games in.

Thank you ZigZag and Win4ester for streaming the series so far of Gun_man+Ankarar vs. Kinkys3x and Orange. So far series is: 4 wins to kinky's team and 3 wins to Gun_man's team. Gun_man's team had the last win on Country Swing so that means Kinky's team gets to pick next map.