Idea for the ladder

[Phenomena]

So this thread will be regarding the eventual ranking ladder, and how I believe it should be approached to keep it fair and balanced for everybody.

 

This is also assuming you can implement a "quick match" type feature to the game.

 

So as stated, i believe the best way to have a ladder is to use a quick match system.

 

This eliminates so many annoying things with past ladders on these older games

 

1- Drastically removes newb bashing

If you get matched vs a random player, you eliminate people picking and choosing who they play aganst...for example, myself being a good player, it makes it so i dont play complete newbs for my rank

 

Other games us an elo type system, matching like skilled players together...unfortunately the player base is not big enough for that, so it should remain random. Have it like the old ladder, if you have 900 pts, and you match against someone with no points, well if you win you get 1 or 2 points, but if your opponent wins they get say 64

 

2- Eliminates playing on only 1 map

Most top players prefer using terrace...sure its a great map, but when thats the ONLY map people play, it can be annoying and not entirely show whose the best.

There should be a map pool along with the quick match, that picks a random map for the games. The maps should be equally fair for gdi and nod, and all starting positions should be pretty even (example- not seismic, where both left spawns get a lot of blue tib)

 

The maps should include all fair ww/firestorm style maps

as well as some fair and acceptable mods (to make everybody happy)

-some mods I would add would be- Bbg, green moon, conflicts, (i hate to say battleday...but put 1 speed mod in there), aatombombu etc etc

 

Have a huge selection of maps forces players to learn, adapt to new situations, and play more than 1 map.

 

Colous should be random...

 

Thats all I can think of for now

 

It should be built for everyone, and attempt to make everyone happy. Modders will play for the hope of getting battleday or conflicts, and the very best players, it really shouldnt matter what map is picked because they should have the skill and experience to do well on any.

[KHANIVORE]

QM is fine, but that should just be one option. So, you can choose QM or custom . I however dont want MODS in the Qm

[KHANIVORE]

Also historically a lot of the great players dont noob bash to get rank 1, ie me, c0rpsmakr, kapa etc. I find it sort of odd that you posted this since you newb bashed to rank more than just about anyone I know historically... and even set cheat maps ...with host advantage, and backed up this with arguments on xwis, lol

[Phenomena]

You really cant help yourself causing shit can you

 

Trz you are a good player, but your one of the ones who will ONLY play terrace

 

Its not just about the handful of good players, it should cater to everyone.

[Phenomena]

and quite frankly, I want as many people playing ranked games as possible

 

not segregate it like weve done in the past time and time again

 

its time to learn from previous mistakes

[Phenomena]

also this is for 1v1 games only

 

clan or team ranked matches should be setup via custom game

[KHANIVORE]

Everytime I played the ladder competitvely or for rank 1 I would play a lot of different maps and never dodge. Even now I play like 4-5 different WW maps, so I dont know what youre talking about. I can play any map, gdi or nod. Navigate the XWIS ladders for my names somehow using archive.org and see the maps I play. I was never a one map person, constantly played Terr, FF, TGR, Tunnel Training , Grand Canyon, Limited Access, Pentagram among others. I switched it up very often.

 

I was just saying I dont want QM to be an only option. And I find it funny you posted this because you would always noob bash on XWIS, and would host unfair host advantage maps even.

 

Sometimes QM would be nice for 1v1 ladder, but if I want to competitively play another great person on terrace for rank, should I wish to, that should be an option...QM only is an awful idea.

 

You wont find many people that support a QM  only as a ladder option I gurantee it. Especially since sometimes there is hardly anyone on. And theres time zone conflicts.  Also its never a good idea to limit options. Most good RTS games have custom and QM, not one or the other.

[amokk]

I think we should throw the players into an open pit and the last one breathing wins.....

[Punkernfg]

I don't want any mods for the ladder. They arent the original maps, amongst tons of other things. Quick Match is a good idea. With map selection, it could sort of be like how Halo does it, you have a map, and the players can veto the map if enough people vote that way. As wuss said, matching skilled players is a great way; however, there isn't enough activity to do that yet, so random matching would be one of the best ways to do it.

[amokk]

I agree with Phenomena, it should be built for everybody

 

I understand there is a distinction here between ww maps players and all the maps players

so it is apples and oranges

 

please have an inclusive ladder

ts is more than the maps that came with it when it came out.

 

  ---  the one with the best skills in the greatest variety of situations will deservedly win  ---

 

I won the tournament one month

I played players and maps that I didn't usually play for a chance at the points

beat them and  earned the most points

 

random player and random map from a large, diverse pool of maps seems like it would bring the most well rounded players to the top

and if the maps are served from cncnet not the host then they can be vetted and not tweaked to give an advantage

and point adjustment to accommodate skill differential like westwood did

 

Amokk

 

 

 

 

[Tahj]

All the technical details haven't been fully worked out just yet but, QM is planned for the ladder and will be optional. If all works out, the system will probably allow you to select a map pool; although, the veto selection doesn't sound bad. I would like to add a (certain) selection of mod maps to the pool

[Punkernfg]

For the love of god, no mod maps. PLEASE.

[Tahj]

For the love of god, no mod maps. PLEASE.

 

Why? If they weren't explicitly selected in your map pool, you wouldn't play them in QM.

[Punkernfg]

because mod maps do not show the true skill of TS. There will me mod clans top ranked playing shitty conflict or visc maps. If we want to build the activity and skill base of TS, you cannot reward newb mod players by giving them a ladder. Making the ladder ww maps only, it will be an incentive for mod players to actually LEARN the game, and not sit behind infinite money and bunker bases. This ladder can change the dynamic, activity, and skill level of this game for the better.

 

When we played years back, we had 2 communities split between ww and mod maps. Why would we allow that to happen again? Sure, mod maps can be fun, but when it comes to tournaments and rankings, there's no place for them. When you play Halo online, you can make your own maps and play them in forge, or w/e. But when it comes to mlg or matchmaking (which are ranked), you play the maps that were created for the game, by the creators, not the maps created by the players. The game and strategy was built around the maps that came with the game, by allowing maps that did not come with the game be available during ranked games, the ladder WILL be taken over by mod map players. Mod maps are easier to play and thus, instead of newcomers learning how to play the game properly, and learning, they will settle with the less-skilled maps, and thus jeopardize the credibility and functionality of the ladder.

 

[KHANIVORE]

Mod maps ruin the ladder whether or not we choose to use them or not ourselves in games. Because someone who does choose to play mods has an advantage at winning the ladder. They can set a modified map (in which there are 10000 ways to abuse mods) and win the ladder more easily. They have no place on an official ladder.

[Lovehandles]

Is "mod maps" something that's more or less only used for referring to infinite tiberium maps, or does the game allow for maps that actually change the gameplay in a substantial way, i.e. unit stats and such?

[Tahj]

Is "mod maps" something that's more or less only used for referring to infinite tiberium maps, or does the game allow for maps that actually change the gameplay in a substantial way, i.e. unit stats and such?

 

Modded maps can substantially alter any unit/building/tib stats.

 

When you play Halo online, you can make your own maps and play them in forge, or w/e. But when it comes to mlg or matchmaking (which are ranked), you play the maps that were created for the game, by the creators, not the maps created by the players.

 

This isn't entirely true. As a fellow Halo fan (and MLG alumni), there have been forge (Foundry) based maps that have made it into playlists - created by and for MLG of course.

 

Outside of that, I'd never propose for conf or visc maps to be added alongside to any ladder with WW maps. That'd be mental... I do however, have a special place in my heart for BBG and wouldn't want to completely shut the door if we ever decided to "expand" on the map pool via official map pack. I wholeheartedly agree that maps with infinite tib etc., have no place in the same ladder as traditional style WW maps; so, I'd probably recommend two separate ladders (one for WW maps; another for [certain] mods).

 

With that said, I certainly understand the security concern regarding a ladder for mods maps. However, with the tech available through CnCNet, we should be able to limit which maps can be played officially and prevent malicious users from playing altered/non-sanctioned versions. This would be extraordinarily difficult through any TS WOL emulator/implementation, so thankfully we now have some room to think "outside the box". I just don't want us to fall into the mindset of, "that wasn't possible there, so it won't work here".

[Phenomena]

Thats essential what im proposing

 

Unfortunately most mods that people currently play have infinite tiberium... quite honestly it shouldnt matter as the better player should always win. Having said that...im all for changing things up a bit....

 

I love forest fires, I would 1v1 on that map every game if I could, just as some players may only use bbg, or terrace. But thats my point...I want to avoid 1 mapping, bring in a wider skill range (yes i know the good players will still be favored despite the map), but this game is 15 years old, change things up a bit lol

 

For example...when xwis was active, id have a tourny set with FF, kapa would join, demand terrace. I would say after this, and he would refuse.  Is he better than me? sure I guess.... but quick match would force great players like kapa to think outside the box a little

 

 

The other reason we should add some mods is to avoid separation...yet again

 

There are only a handful of players, what would be better, having 40% of the active people play ranked games OR try to get EVERYBODY to play them? Maybe even nodrescue would hit quick match in hopes he gets something he can bunk and make banshees on...who cares

 

Basically I just want as many people as possible playing ranked games, both 1v1 and clans. Not sure why some players (chris...you dont even 1v1 lol) who are in the top like 5% of skill, should even worry.

[Sol]

sebs new 3v3 map is not an original ww map, but also not modded. its getting more popular by the day and we should make sure that our map pool wont be exclusively official ww maps. having the ability to maybe get a map into the pool by a community vote could also motivate other players to make new tournament maps.

[amokk]

Punkernfg ,allow me to address your comments

 

because mod maps do not show the true skill of TS.  

--mod maps take the same skills applied differently, and applying those skills to a variety of situations is the true skill of ts.

 

There will me mod clans top ranked playing shitty conflict or visc maps. 

--The top ranked will be the most skillful. Regardless of the map, or what your opinion of the map is

 

If we want to build the activity and skill base of TS, you cannot reward newb mod players by giving them a ladder.

--denying more than half the community a ladder will not build either the skill or activity of the community it will reduce it

--the ladder is not a reward for those that you think are not newb, it is for everyone

 

Making the ladder ww maps only, it will be an incentive for mod players to actually LEARN the game, and not sit behind infinite money and bunker bases.

--Having both kinds of maps will be an incentive for both groups to learn

 

This ladder can change the dynamic, activity, and skill level of this game for the better.

--Yes , it can

--Dynamic ---- for once all the players in the community will get to participate as one community not two factions

--activity -------if both types of maps are there then both types of players will participate

--skill level --- both groups learning to play both types of maps will increase the skill level of the community

 

When we played years back, we had 2 communities split between ww and mod maps.

Why would we allow that to happen again?

--We shouldn't allow that again.

--We have the opportunity to integrate everyone now with an inclusive ladder map pool

 

Sure, mod maps can be fun, but when it comes to tournaments and rankings, there's no place for them.

--the different maps that the members of the ts community play have a place in the ts tournament

 

When you play Halo online, you can make your own maps and play them in forge, or w/e. But when it comes to mlg or matchmaking (which are ranked), you play the maps that were created for the game, by the creators, not the maps created by the players.

--sorry to hear that

 

The game and strategy was built around the maps that came with the game, by allowing maps that did not come with the game be available during ranked games, the ladder WILL be taken over by mod map players.

--the game and strategy was applied to the maps that came with the game.

--Now there are other maps also.

--The ladder will be populated by the whole community not just the tezz players

 

Mod maps are easier to play and thus, instead of newcomers learning how to play the game properly, and learning, they will settle with the less-skilled maps, and thus jeopardize the credibility and functionality of the ladder.

--opponents are what you play in tournament not maps

--a more skilled opponent will beat a less skilled opponent regardless of the map

--the function of the ladder is to show the the most skilled ts player not the most skilled tezz player

--only using a subset of the maps that the community plays will jeopradize the credibility of the tournament, it is supposed to be the best ts player not the best tezz player

 

Please implement an inclusive tournament for the entire ts community.

 

Amokk

[Tahj]

Please implement an inclusive tournament for the entire ts community.

 

I can get on board with including certain mods maps (within reason). Although strongly biased, Punker does raise a couple of good points. For any particular map to be considered, it should be fair for all players involved. Any maps with certain [unfair] benefits, probably shouldn't be included.

 

Perhaps it would be best to have a poll for the community to decide which maps (out of a given selection) should be in the [future] QM map pool.

[Punkernfg]

Voting maps in isn't going to work as there's more mod players than ww players. They will vote in maps like conflict, etc. BBG is a fun map, sure. But I don't believe mod maps have a place in official ranked tournaments. BBG is just a 'non-speed' unlimited money map. No expansion, bunker down with your 1 little entrnace, blue tib everywhere. Bombu's map is great, I love it. But once again, it's a mod map. If we let some mod maps in the tournament, then we are going to let a whole bunch in. When this happens, the integrity of the game changes as you're going to get more players playing mod maps in the tourney (like they did in the old days) and ww maps will be played less. I'd rather make the modders learn ww maps to play on the ladder rather than splitting the community into 2. The quick match idea might not even work. If I go into a quick match 2v2 and I get conflict...I'm quitting under 3 minutes and it won't count (assuming this rule still exists). Quick match with ww maps sounds good to me.

[amokk]

Punkernfg,

good point

If there are more mod players than ww players in the community

then more than half, not half are being left out.

 

The more than half should be included also

 

 

Hope the new players don't learn to think ww players and mod map players  but the community.

we have an opportunity to solve that here and now

 

 

It sounds like the maps could be served out so it should be easy to keep those unfair things out

exclude the maps where all the players don't have the same opportunities as all of the other players on the map

 

[KHANIVORE]

It would be a lot better for the start of the ladder, ie the first month or few to just do WW maps, any official map, and maybe a pool for QM. And have the option for either CUSTOM or QM. Then down the road maybe propose introducing some fair mod maps, that dont have speed or unit mods. Maybe WW style mods, or at the most BBG.

 

Starting automatically with mods is a bad idea, unless you do 2 different ladders.

[Sol]

Like most other RTS games, at its very core TS is about economy. There are so many skills that revolve around it, like money management, when to expand, harv control, harv protection, harv hunting...

On 99% of all mod maps I know, this is taken away and leaves an empty shell that looks like TS, but doesnt actually have much to do with how the game was meant to be played.