Idea for the ladder

[c0rpsmakr]

I haven't posted in this topic yet because I was considering how the mod map players would feel about a strictly ww map ladder, but I think that I am inclined to agree with punker. Unless the mod maps that are put to a vote to be included in the ladder are ww style, where you have to expand, don't have free radar, dont have an EXCESSIVE amount of cash and tiberium trees to start off with, dont have 1000 power off of one powerplant, among other criteria, then they should not be allowed in the competitive scene that is trying to be cultivated here.

 

The ladder is meant to showcase ranking among the competitive community, and allowing maps that kill off the need for entire skill sets just contradicts that.

 

There are NO skills used on a mod map that aren't already being put to test on a ww map, while the opposite is not true. I do agree that the ladder players should be required to play on a variety of maps, but mods, unless ww style, don't belong.

[amokk]

The ladder is meant to showcase ranking among the competitive entire community

[Lovehandles]

The ladder is meant to showcase ranking among the competitive entire community

 

Playing for rank/points is sort of inherently competitive, no?

 

Regardless, I can sympathise with the players that aren't interested in having maps that require no map control/expanding as part of the ladder pool, as they're ultimately not fit for competitive play. They're kind of broken design-wise, and they, as far as I can tell, increase the defender's advantage unnecessarily. Are there any infinite tib maps wherein the tiberium is properly spread out in small amounts?

[Mole40k]

I have to say I agree with Reid (Phenomena) and Amokk here. Reading some of the posts above makes me think that after all these years, some of you have learnt absolutely nothing.

 

Modders are an important part of the TS community, and should not be marginalized just so the same half a dozen people can fight it out for bragging rights at the end of each month. As it goes, these same people will *always* be at the top anyway, so whether mods are in or not makes very little difference on a practical level, but makes a massive difference to everyone else.

 

Of course the ideal solution here would be to have an option to 'include mods' or not in your search terms, and to ensure that mods that are included are vetted as 'official' with no obvious imbalances. The other key point I think would be to make sure that ladders can be divided to display: ww only, mod only, and combined. This means that modders get their own competition, and the elitist terrace community get to feel good about being #1-20 at the end of each month (after all, isn't this what the 'no mods' argument is really all about...)

 

--------------

<aside>

While I am here, there is a related point I would like to raise, that I think needs addressing -- a spectre if you will, that is haunting this conversation:

-- Some WW players are not very good at mod maps --

While I sympathise with the argument that playing bunking modders can be frustrating, and extremely time consuming if it comes down to a grind-fest, I would argue that you essentially do exactly the same thing when playing long games of Terrace, just to a lesser degree. While I see some of the less experienced, or deliberately biased people on here are saying that there is no such thing as map control and expanding on mods, I would suggest to you that if you want to beat a stubborn bunked player on a mod map, this is exactly what you need to be doing.

</aside>

---------------

 

So anyway, in short I say this: don't make the same mistake xwis made all those years ago when Olaf listened to the TS trolls instead of the reasonable, balanced views in the community. Let modders have their place, and let's stop with this ridiculous superiority complex of ww vs mod. TS has been around longer than some of our players have been alive. Think about it. Get over yourselves. At the end of the day it's just a game. But more than that, it's not just your game; it's EVERYBODY'S game.

[c0rpsmakr]

I guess it is somewhat selfish to want only official maps on the ladder,  regardless of if it will force players to adapt and become better. it isn't elitist to want to foster the competition on ts and TEACH players, which is the intent behind why players like punker and I wanted an official map only ladder, which IS meant for the COMPETITIVE community as the players whom solely play ffgs won't touch a ladder game.

 

If mods were never added to the map pool so many years ago on the ladder, then I wouldn't budge on my stance in saying that there should only be ww maps, but since it has become a part of ts over the years, they should be allowed. I do, however, still feel strongly that the mods that are allowed on the ladder have requirements that must be met.

[Sol]

Modders are an important part of the TS community, and should not be marginalized just so the same half a dozen people can fight it out for bragging rights at the end of each month. As it goes, these same people will *always* be at the top anyway, so whether mods are in or not makes very little difference on a practical level, but makes a massive difference to everyone else.

 

[...] the elitist terrace community get to feel good about being #1-20 at the end of each month (after all, isn't this what the 'no mods' argument is really all about...)

I have to disagree here. That's not what we are trying to accomplish. A lot of people, myself included, don't care about ranking. I don't even enjoy 1v1. We want to give the mod community an incentive to play WW maps and ultimately convert them to WW players. The problem is that most modders don't know that they would enjoy ww maps. But once you have become good at them, they will understand.

[en3rgy52]

Only fully sanctioned MOD Maps should be included, any MOD map containing any alteration or modification of units etc should not be included. We are vastly over complicating things here, whilst a "quick match" system would be a nice to have I don't think it is a "need to have", there simply aren't enough players to warrant one and it causes issues such as the ones outlined. A simple ladder that records official games that can be played on a pre-defined list of maps means players can to choose to either play an approved MOD map or a WW map. If a game is set and it's a MOD map and you don't like MODs then don't join it and vice versa for WW maps. The best players will be able to pay both anyway and as the old saying goes, "the cream always rises to the top".

 

If there is a large section of the community that wants MOD maps that contain modified units and wants to play them competitively, then perhaps a separate MOD only ladder would be suitable.

 

Anyway the more we bitch and moan the less likely we are ever going to get a ladder. Remeber, the development of all this is being done in peoples own time and they will not get much recognition for the effort!

[MrFrodo]

Fok u guys... The replies here are more infuriating than try to get answer from Olaf about anything.  Here it goes:

 

Funkyfresh, this guy Phenomena aka wuss is the one I was talking about, he knows about map triggers etc. Anyways fellas last I talked to funky few weeks ago he was sayin about working or is gonna work on tool similar to what he did for RA1 that checks for map triggers that gave unfair/hidden advantages or cheats if you will. Wuss it be kind of you to send Funky a pm to help him understand about triggers like you used to do for example, when sell silo and u get more cash with modded bbg.

 

 

The ladder(single or clan)

Any map should be allowed as long as no hidden cheats or unfair practices involved.

That's why amokk has volunteered in trying to gather all maps remove the fragmentation in maps like we have 3 versions of bbg4. These maps will be/should be categorized sun, fs, speed mods, comp stomp(not for ladder thou), and others etc. Having a map database will protect new maps being replicated/duplicated all over the server, since a new map could either be submitted to the database or server can auto add it to its map database provided it passes as a "fair" map.

 

How is a map with infinite money and complete symmetry unfair? If anything ww maps cud be unfair according to the reasoning given by most in this topic. Why get into a pissin contest about maps allowed on ladder when the server is giving u the choice of choosing ANY map.

 

Now for QM(no intent to pressure devs, merely a suggestion)

So IF and WHEN there is a QM i do think for QM  a map pool agreed upon by community would be nice with players can ask and make a case for  certain(new) maps to be added to the "QM map pool". Although at the same time, the map pool can be avoided by simply having filters. So let's says I wanna QM(purpose of QM IMO is quick game with random opponent) I could filter QM games by for instance map style. I go QM>> filter "visc games">> and launch/join assuming there is someone willing to QM on visc.

 

And whatever the result; default ranked games or QM ranked games, mod or non mods they should all be counted on one ladder.

 

Feels like you guys is arguments are instinctively to divide players into different tranches. I was gonna go on but Mole and Wuss summarized it very well. And Sol that's such a f'ked up thing to say that we wanna give incentive to modders, seriously? Once there is a nice working ladder and plenty of map choices with no unfair cheats etc anyone should be able to play anybody on any map. It's quite simple really.

 

Thanks. Fellas try to stay focused and don't post ideas like cross game QM or any far fetched ideas. Let the ladder come first !!

 

And Sean dude you dont even play ts..,, soft spot for bbg lmao!

[Phenomena]

do whats better for the game, not just 30% of us

[Sol]

Feels like you guys is arguments are instinctively to divide players into different tranches. I was gonna go on but Mole and Wuss summarized it very well. And Sol that's such a f'ked up thing to say that we wanna give incentive to modders, seriously?

 

I'm not trying to bash modders here, i just really believe that most of the mod map players never actually had the choice between mods and ww maps. As a new player you pretty much automatically become a modder in most cases. And if someone decided that after 500 games of WW and 500 games of mods, that mods are more interesting, i couldnt care less. But I am convinced, that most players would actually prefer ww maps once they have become decent at them.

[Hefeweize]

If we implement Mod maps in the ladder, i do agree that we should actually incorporate 'specific' cheat free mod maps. Just like how RA1 does.

[MrFrodo]

Sol just see what the OP was all about and what u r talking about! go make a new topic where u can give ur definition of incentive and continue about mods vs ww...

[Sol]

Looks like its impossible to have a discussion with you, so yeah, I'm out.

[amokk]

Mr. Frodo, said,

Once there is a nice working ladder and plenty of map choices with no unfair cheats etc anyone should be able to play anybody on any map. It's quite simple really.

 

well put, hear hear

 

sol quote

I'm not trying to bash modders here, i just really believe that most of the mod map players never actually had the choice between mods and ww maps. As a new player you pretty much automatically become a modder in most cases. And if someone decided that after 500 games of WW and 500 games of mods, that mods are more interesting, i couldnt care less. But I am convinced, that most players would actually prefer ww maps once they have become decent at them.

 

>>>  they have the choice every minute of every day to play both..in the lobby...!!!!! for now...

 

and it seems that ww map players posts suggest that we do not give them the choice of which to play competitively

 

if you have your way they will indeed never have a choice.

 

 

    ----------let us play competively, what we play-------------

 

i have not seen even one hint at denying you the opportunity to play what it is that you like

 

free will and personal preference are why they choose to play what they play ..,, for now

if most become mod map players then most perfer mod maps and most deserve a ladder to play them competively on.......

 

sol quote

I have to disagree here. That's not what we are trying to accomplish. A lot of people, myself included, don't care about ranking. I don't even enjoy 1v1. We want to give the mod community an  ---- incentive ----to play WW maps and ultimately convert them to WW players. The problem is that most modders don't know that they would enjoy ww maps. But once you have become good at them, they will understand.

 

some of us see that one goal is to 'convert' them to ww map players

to raise them from the 'skilless' depths of mod maps to save them

 

shame on you for imposing your ideology on them like that

that is truly some scary shit that you are proposing

 

ww map players, we'll do the thinking for you.....

 

the first 2 years i couldn't stand the mods, but given the opportunity to play both I came to play the mods more

not some tyrant making me play the mods so that I would 'understand' that i would like them

if you like ww better i do not have a problem with that. I do object to myself or others being deprived of the opportunity to play both

I was lucky enough to have had the opportunity to play both and find what I like best

not what you think i will like best

 

 

 

please include both in the map pool so we continue to have have a choice, and the opportunity to exercise our free will.

[Sol]

well instead of trying to figure out my intentions, you focus on the words i use and other technicalities. as i am not a native english speaker i have some problems to express what i actually want to say. i have been a modder for most of the time and i can tell you, that most players DONT have a choice. if you are new to this game, you will get kicked from every ww game and will only be exposed to mods. it is hard to get out of that, and most ww players will only give other people a chance if they get points for it.

[amokk]

well instead of trying to figure out my intentions, you focus on the words i use and other technicalities. as i am not a native english speaker i have some problems to express what i actually want to say. i have been a modder for most of the time and i can tell you, that most players DONT have a choice. if you are new to this game, you will get kicked from every ww game and will only be exposed to mods. it is hard to get out of that, and most ww players will only give other people a chance if they get points for it.

 

new players can host/play ww maps

the leets kicking them does not keep them from playing ww maps

experienced mod players kick new players too

 

 

in the lobby at the moment 10 games

1 leet tezz (4 players)

5 new players ww map games (26 players)

3 mod map games (20 players)

1 ai mod map game (3 players)

 

" that most players DONT have a choice. if you are new to this game, you will get kicked from every ww game and will only be exposed to mods."

 

I do not see that. sorry

[Sol]

maybe i am wrong and its different on this server, but my experience has been, that there have been countless players trying to get into the ww community but couldnt.

 

also i think you shouldnt include password protected games in your list. as they are not open for everyone and _most likely_ just a group of friends playing this game a couple of times and not long-time players.

 

oh and btw people really seem to confuse "mod" map with "custom" map. if you just take away the free radar from BBG and the infinite power from conflict they would technically not be mod maps. and i am FOR mod free custom maps to be part of the map pool. as long as there is some kind of community voting or something like that involved.

[amokk]

Those are important distinctions you bring up.

 

"but my experience has been, that there have been countless players trying to get into the ww community but couldnt."

 

Things are different here now.

Xwis at the end was a old thing, old and grey and settled in its ways

a closed off group of cliques. I see what you were talking about then.

 

To the player playing for the first time here, now there are many more just starting

this reminds me of westwood online at the very begining

we have gone from being the ts community

to being part of the new ts community

 

I have seen many references to chess in this thread

Chess is a fantastic game, but it is not the game it started out being.

those ways it became 'different' over thousands of years.

probably bothered those who liked it the way it was

I expect that it is a much better game now, though

after it developed and in some ways changed

 

in red alert there are a huge number of boxes for different game settings

as the players over the years have played the 'original game ' differently

some ts maps have the free radar box checked.. but everyone gets it

hidden things in modded maps  vs things that everyone gets is a muddied point in this thread

and the differences between us for a long time now

 

TS, after 15 years of play testing and input it is a different game now than when it came out

The new community will start from here, and will continue to evolve it into what they like.

i really didn't like some of the 'game settings' changes

some i came to like some i still don't but the game is better than without them and wouldn't be the same.

to me it would be boring without the new ways.

 

I hope we can clarify what the differences are and work out options for addressing them

 

I think we clarified one of the ones between us, Sol

 

Amokk

 

[c0rpsmakr]

so you're telling me that it should be possible for some new player that hasnt even grasped the fundamentals of the game to be able to get rank 1 by playing a bunch of games on nazi world war 2000 or waterworld? um.... hell no.

 

what kind of incentive is that for people to even bother playing the ladder if they're up against someone that  can play some chopped and screwed maps and be able to win over people that have put time into learning how the game works and playing maps with standard settings? that's horse shit.

[Mole40k]

I think what we can agree on here is that there is certainly some need for 'standardisation' when it comes to the use of mods on ladders. Perhaps a working group of well known and respected players to discuss 5 or so maps that are balanced, and contain little if any core modification to core gameplay. This group could meet again after a few months to assess how the mods have been received and suggest alterations to the maps / lists to ensure balance, while also including the views of respected members of the mod community.

 

@Sol - I think you have let yourself down here slightly. I did have a certain amount of respect for your arguments, but to suggest that the aim of not including mods on the ladder is to promote people to lean WW is absolutely ludicrous. If anything that will only drive a wedge between the two communities, as it has done in the past, and will be bad for ladder activity. There is nothing worse for a new player than getting completely owned in short time by someone so far out of their league that it's a waste of time for all involved. Such experiences only encourage players to play with other players of their own level, or simply not play at all. The question here is about INCLUSION, and not about imposing one dominant ideology upon the whole community.

 

 

[Phenomena]

umm i think we can all agree that any map with hidden units/ "cheats" on it shouldnt be allowed

 

However there should be mod maps, aka maps that were created by someone

 

ideally maps that do not have speed, infinite power.... free radar i really dont care, but if you want to have "the maps must apply to ww style rules" then take away free radar too

 

Maps I would include off the top of my head are

- bbg, green moon, abombu, sebs new map, grays non speed version

 

again, this should be ONLY for the 1v1 ladder, should be ONLY if there is a quick match function (which in all honesty, I think is the best way to go for a 1v1 ladder)

 

Trz does have a point...if say he wants to play corps for a 1v1 tourny.... I would like most 1v1 ladder games to be via quick match, however maybe an admin can host "special event" games ...like feature top players  in a 1v1 ranked game, and allow spectators or stream it

 

However I truly think having the allowance for custom ranked games will only make people noob bash (not everyone..but lets face it, most people do, even im guilty of it)

 

Mod maps are a part of TS.... have been since almost day 1, thus the map pool should at least have a few fair balanced mods to the list of vast ww/fs maps to choose from

 

again, via quick match, the map choice would be random (or if say there are 20 maps in the pool, you can veto 5 of them in options...sorta like starcraft 2)

 

I have no clue how this will all work coding wise, or if its even possible.... but to avoid splitting the community (which happened time and time again in the past) this is the path we should take

 

Include everyone, make everyone happy... besides... mod map or not, bunking or not, if you match me or trz against nodrescue on bbg, he would be lucky to win 1 game out of 100.... so im not really understanding the argument of not have some mods on the ladder.

[Sol]

@Sol - I think you have let yourself down here slightly. I did have a certain amount of respect for your arguments, but to suggest that the aim of not including mods on the ladder is to promote people to lean WW is absolutely ludicrous. [...] The question here is about INCLUSION, and not about imposing one dominant ideology upon the whole community.

The way you guys put it, it sounds way more extreme than i intended it to be - my mistake.

 

 

There is nothing worse for a new player than getting completely owned in short time by someone so far out of their league that it's a waste of time for all involved. Such experiences only encourage players to play with other players of their own level, or simply not play at all.

remember, we are talking about the ladder here, which is supposed to be for people with a competitive spirit. i think losing should be a motivation to work on yourself. if you get demotivated by heavy losses, you will stop playing the ladder sooner or later anyway.

[PowrBombu]

Dont unerstand why anyone says no mod maps, that rules the modders out of having fun and competing in the ladder, you dont get forced to play a mod map so if you dont like mods just leave the game and play a WW player... As the warning on XWIS stated you play mods at your own risk no need to outlaw them just dont be a moron.

[Punkernfg]

I'm telling you now, if you allow mod maps, you will split the community in 2. You're going to have a bunch of mod map clans and a bunch of ww map clans who won't play eachother. It happened before and it will happen again. The ladder will not demonstrate who the top player/clan is. Is that not the idea of a competitive ladder?

 

You make it sound like mod maps will be deleted from the game. Mod map players can play all they want, but when it comes to the competitive aspect of the game, mod maps shouldnt be part of it. 

[amokk]

well Punkernfg, if allowing both kinds of maps will split the community,

I propose mods only, more people play them

if there were only mods would you play?

 

you will have to learn some skillz if you want to compete though

might be good for you, raise your skill level XD  :roll:

 

jk, I think both are the way to go

I expect to the new player there are just maps..

lets not bias them

 

"You're going to have a bunch of mod map clans and a bunch of ww map clans who won't play eachother"

we already won't, both will give them the opportunity to play each other, then we just might not anymore