Tiberian Dawn Artillery Re-Balance (Mini-Mod Added)

[KevinLancaster]

I think I know what happened with the MLRS / Artillery balancing during TD's development and how to fix it:

Spoiler

TD:
GDI msam (the MLRS is named M(obile) SAM in the rules.ini, was meant for Nod)
Nod arty
Nod ssm (actually named MLRS in rules)

Intended: left GDI with no anti-air in GDI v. GDI games
GDI ssm (outranged Obelisk and came with AGT)
Nod arty
Nod msam (Mobile SAM site)

Switched: left GDI with no light artillery
GDI msam (anti-air)
Nod arty
Nod ssm (only in MP, to outrange obelisk)
Nod also gets msam in MP even though Nod already has anti-air units

OUT-OF-DATE, SEE EDITS.
Ideal: but they didn't have enough time to put in
GDI ssm (GDI light artillery with AGT)
GDI msam (anti-air)
Nod arty
Nod ssm (available for both sides in MP for balance)

Out-of-date, see edits: That's why the strange rule of Nod having the MLRS was in MP,  it was supposed to have been the SSM but the tags and stats were mixed up. To maintain compatibility the SSM stats and sprites should be moved to the [MSAM] of the current MLRS, while the MLRS stats and sprites should be moved to the [MLRS] tag of the SSM launcher, which is never used in the campaign anyway, and maybe the sides changed around.

Edit: Looking at the game rules in TibEd, the SSM actually requires the Advanced Guard Tower instead of the Obelisk, which makes it more likely it was a GDI / dual-owned unit. However the weapons of the two units got switched around some time during the development: The MLRS was supposed to become available with the AGT, have a cost of 750, and a health of 120. The SSM was supposed to become available with the Adv. Comm Center / Temple of Nod, have a cost of 800, and a health of 100. This fits with the appearance of the units themselves: the SSM is clearly less armored than the MLRS but it had more health in vanilla. This was overlooked with it not being in single-player and multiplayer not being as big at the time.

 

This MLRS is basically a mobile AGT, and the SSM is much more damaging but less armored. The sprites don't have to switched around either. The SSM stays a Nod only unit, and the MLRS may or may not be kept by both sides -- but if it is it has an increased usefulness for Nod. In the Mini-Mod it was kept as with the SSM health decrease both Nod artillery units are very fragile, so the MLRS is there to compensate. It fits together great with the existing Westwood multiplayer balancing.

Edit 2: There seemed to be a memory issue that prevents the SSM from requiring the Adv. Comm Center / Temple of Nod, so the closest thing is the AGT / Obelisk. This could be why it wasn't available in the campaign and so rare otherwise, it would have been overpowered requiring only an advanced defence. Since the Nod Nuke does fire damage, it makes sense that the SSM, based on the Honest John nuclear missile was available with the Temple of Nod. I was able to work around it in the mini-mod.

Edit 3: Mini-mod added back. It doesn't replace the regular CnCNet TD .exe, so to test MP it has to be renamed. Give feedback if possible. If players approve I hope they could make it a CnCNet option because while small it still makes the field more competitive. The MLRS isn't a trinket anymore, opening options for both sides and the SSM has a more interesting role in the Nod roster despite the nerf.

TiberianDawn_Online.7z

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by KevinLancaster

[cn2mc]

Why are multiplayer rules like Nod having the MLRS strange? Multi also has APCs, chem warriors and apaches for Nod, chinooks for both sides, a weaker nuke, commandos... Infact, why do you think balance needs fixing? If anything, these exceptions were obviously made to improve balance and buff Nod.

You think GDI is supposed to have the SSM too, am I right? Well, I guarantee you that if they did, Nod would stand no chance in any sort of longer game.

[KevinLancaster]

That might have been why they changed it, I was just looking at the rules and noticed the strangeness with the tags. It seems a common enough complaint that the MLRS is expensive, weak, and too late in the tech tree compared to the Artillery, and the reason would be that it wasn't actually supposed to be the GDI Artillery counterpart but a mobile anti-air Nod one.

The MLRS in MP doesn't add much to the Nod roster since it already had anti-air units, while the other additions like the Chem Warrior are unique. To balance GDI having the SSM some stats could be switched around with the MLRS, mainly that it should require the Advanced Comm Center and the cost raised to 800, maybe the health lowered as well.

Edited February 16, 2018 by KevinLancaster

[Inq]

I would guess that originally GDI had the flame units, as you can see the GDI flame tank in the beta screenshots, it also explains why the A10 drops napalm.

So it would make sense that:

The SSM (MRLS) was the GDI artillery unit. (Flame weapon)

Artillery (Arty) was the NOD artillery unit.

Missile Launcher (MSAM) was a unit shared by both factions for AA purposes.

(I believe: The Medium Tank, SAM sites & Gun turrets were also shared units - My guess is the Adv Guard Tower was an after thought, thats why it doesn't look right, and the missiles appear from nowhere)

 

 

[X3M]

Please keep in mind that the mrls is anti air as well. And does more damage than the artillery and is faster/ turns faster. The rockets too, are faster. And both are anti vehicle on top of infantry. However, gdi only has the hummer for specific purposes as anti infantry. Yet nod has them buggies more as a fodder unit plus the recon bikes as anti armor.

That is why you see 800 vs 450. Mrls is simply stronger.

 

I still feel that both need 1 or 2 range extra.

 

The ssm launcher does a lot of damage against mammoth and harvester as well as opposed to medium tanks. You xan actually use the ssm as hit and run on mammoth.

[KevinLancaster]

On 16/02/2018 at 6:55 PM, Inq said:

I would guess that originally GDI had the flame units, as you can see the GDI flame tank in the beta screenshots, it also explains why the A10 drops napalm.

So it would make sense that:

The SSM (MRLS) was the GDI artillery unit. (Flame weapon)

Artillery (Arty) was the NOD artillery unit.

Missile Launcher (MSAM) was a unit shared by both factions for AA purposes.

(I believe: The Medium Tank, SAM sites & Gun turrets were also shared units - My guess is the Adv Guard Tower was an after thought, thats why it doesn't look right, and the missiles appear from nowhere)

Yeah that seems to make sense, then they probably decided that it was strange for GDI to be torching people live as well as Nod maybe being too weak so they diversified them and rebalanced it a bit for launch.

With the MLRS basically being a mobile Advanced Guard Tower, it would make sense for it to require the AGT, so the two units were switched around at some point since in the game code the SSM actually requires the AGT, with the Obelisk at the same tech level.

Edit: Worked out a new way of doing things, added to the original post. It's simpler and closer to the vanilla game, I'm going to release a TibEd .exe with the changes but do players think Nod should keep the MLRS or not? It seems unnecessary but I'll probably leave it as is since there's no real reason to change it.

Edit 2: Keeping the Nod MLRS since both the Arty and the SSM are extremely easy to blow up after the stats change.

Edited February 18, 2018 by KevinLancaster

[AchromicWhite]

Well, I think the designers released it the way that they wanted to (as the manuals and such show the tech correctly).
However, balance wise, I've often said that MLRS tech needs to be lowered to either comm or AGT. And also that the SSM should probably be temple. The SSM is a really strong weapon that GDI actually just doesn't have an answer to.

Though, the addition of the MLRS might help to deal with the issues of the SSM... If GDI can scrap being so dependant on infantry, then Nod has less use for the SSM.

I agree with Cn2 that GDI seemed to perhaps originally have the flame technology.



Do nod players build MLRS? I've really only seen newbies make it, the SSM is MUCH better... and I disagree that it's easy to blow up, because it's so long ranged and easy to keep out the way. Not THAT slow, either (especially against GDI).

Edited February 18, 2018 by AchromicWhite

[KevinLancaster]

4 hours ago, AchromicWhite said:

Well, I think the designers released it the way that they wanted to (as the manuals and such show the tech correctly).
However, balance wise, I've often said that MLRS tech needs to be lowered to either comm or AGT. And also that the SSM should probably be temple. The SSM is a really strong weapon that GDI actually just doesn't have an answer to.

Though, the addition of the MLRS might help to deal with the issues of the SSM... If GDI can scrap being so dependant on infantry, then Nod has less use for the SSM.

I agree with Cn2 that GDI seemed to perhaps originally have the flame technology.



Do nod players build MLRS? I've really only seen newbies make it, the SSM is MUCH better... and I disagree that it's easy to blow up, because it's so long ranged and easy to keep out the way. Not THAT slow, either (especially against GDI).

If you look at the stats swap I made, you'll see what I meant about the easy to blow up part. The tech tree is right in the final version, but they mixed up the stats of the SSM and the MLRS. The SSM was supposed to be the one with 100 health and 800 credits, the MLRS with 120 and 750. The MLRS was the cheaper but more armored and flexible alternative, while the SSM was an ideal unit for Nod ambushes and had to get away or be well defended enough to prevent destruction during reload.

Another thing is the appearance of the units themselves, the SSM is clearly less armored than the MLRS but it had more health in vanilla. This was probably an oversight of it not being in single-player and multiplayer not being as big at the time.

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by KevinLancaster

[AchromicWhite]

Yes, I see what you mean about the HP. That makes sense. I've thought that about the HP before.

I don't think the SSM is ambush. It's an artillery.
It can be used during a grinding push, or it can be used defensively. Basically, you put stuff in front of it, units or terrain to block enemy advances on it, and then it's free to just sit and do damage.
Both of them could stand to be slower moving.

[cn2mc]

Actually, I didn't say I think GDI was initially supposed to have the flame tech (per concept). I said that from a balance perspective it would've been overkill for them to have the SSM, which is essentially a way for GDI to indirectly fight Nod defences (and bikes).

Fun fact: besides being terrible vs. orcas and apaches in the game, the actual real-life MLRS is a strictly ground-to-ground weapons system, not an AA one.

[cn2mc]

It's most decidedly a Bradley IFV in the cutscenes, and a pixelated tin can ingame.

In RA rocket soldiers actually have two different weapons for ground and air targets, with the AA weapon having a faster projectile, longer range, etc.

[Nyerguds]

On 2/16/2018 at 11:19 PM, KevinLancaster said:

Edit: Looking at the game rules in TibEd, the SSM actually requires the Advanced Guard Tower instead of the Obelisk, which makes it more likely it was a GDI / dual-owned unit.

This is normal. All double-owned prerequisites are set this way, and the SSM is more or less a scrapped unit recycled for multiplay, so that doesn't surprise me at all.

[Inq]

On 18/02/2018 at 12:48 PM, chem said:

But its listed in the manual as the bradley which is modern American kit which nod shouldnt have really, unless GDI is selling them their own kit? Also no missile launcher or APC function for the nod light tank which you could perhaps make for your mod? xD

Its shown in the FMV as a Bradley too but the Bradley doesnt have a big round turret, it has a small angular one

Or the T72? This makes the most sense because its Russian kit, even the Sherman is old American kit. However the light tank looks like it has the T72's turret and the Bradley's  chassis. 

 

 

The light tank is 100% the Bradley, I think I read somewhere its a retrofitted version with a bigger gun, M2-F (fictional)

Visually yeah, the unit has a round turret, which is a trait of Soviet era tanks T-54, T-62, T-64 etc

Seems a common misconception however that "NOD = Soviets"  which is not true... its a global cult/terrorist organization. So presumably there was a coup d'etat within the United States, defecting generals or whatever - my theory. (I like to think of it as the American Civil War 2, rather than the Cold War)

At least that'd explain why NOD uses the US LPV (Attack Buggy), the US M110 (Artillery), US C130/C17? (Cargo Plane), US AH-64 (Apache), US CH-47 (Transport Helicopter) etc

In the cutscenes NOD also have F-22 fighter jets, Bradleys & Abrams tanks.

The Flame Tank & Recon Bike are pure fantasy units, presumably left over from the original concepts for C&C being kind of Sci-fi.

 

[AchromicWhite]

It is indeed the Bradley... The real Bradley is not a tank, however, it's what's known as an IFV (Infantry fighting vehicle). And it's main weapon is a chain gun, not a cannon (think machine gun, but nastier).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infantry_fighting_vehicle

but this one will blow your mind more:
Check out the "nod buggy"... patrol vehicle used by Seals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Patrol_Vehicle

There are also beta shots that show Nod having the med tank (which is the US Abrams). Note they also have the US Apache.

Nod maybe Terrorists, but they're not the poor military of what you might think of regarding modern terrorist organisations. Not sure if the design team really thought through which weapons Nod should have (lore wise) or if they just got their hands on a book of US war machines and put them into the game... and then just worried about who's have what later.