How to use Appachi's vs GDI the proper way?

[chem]

So not the all in cheese which is usually a poor move against a good player (although timed and hidden well it can be a game winner and not  such a poor move ) 

Ive heard of the flamer troop and heli back up pro rush but I havnt the skill to pull it off yet.

The nuke heli snipe combo is a good move.

Just 1 helli to harass Humvee's and naders early is quite useful

 

So those 4 tactics aside how does a good nod player force GDI into the bazooka / adv guard tower meta which is harder for the GDI player to fight from?

How does a good nod player use heli's properly?

 

[Myg]

I used to use that heli flamer mix and always enjoyed it. I would also drop flamers from chinooks to pressure the enemy even more. Both tacs use excessive amounts of micro.

[cn2mc]

So, you give yourself 4 answers, and then ask the question? Point?

[Myg]

I think he just wants more opinions, no harm in that.

[chem]

10 minutes ago, cn2mc said:

So, you give yourself 4 answers, and then ask the question? Point?

So no one gives me advice that I already know, im looking for advice I don't yet know.  Cheers bro

Edited May 26, 2018 by chem

[chem]

13 minutes ago, Myg said:

I used to use that heli flamer mix and always enjoyed it. I would also drop flamers from chinooks to pressure the enemy even more. Both tacs use excessive amounts of micro.

cool will look forward to trying that thanks bro!!

This game is so deep so many tactics, a new one I learnt is a few flamers in an APC to get rid of naders after the APC has crushed as many as he can the flamers pop out and kill some more lol

[cn2mc]

OK then: AGT builds are not uncomfortable or hard for GDI. Bazookas are. And with Nod, you can only force those out with apaches. Otherwise, you described pretty much the only two possible ways to use apaches - knockout rush and single heli harass.

[chem]

12 minutes ago, cn2mc said:

OK then: AGT builds are not uncomfortable or hard for GDI. Bazookas are. And with Nod, you can only force those out with apaches. Otherwise, you described pretty much the only two possible ways to use apaches - knockout rush and single heli harass.

Got it so harass anything with helis especially things further out from their base so they have to send slow weak bazooka men everywhere with them?

 

Helis are expensive so I find them a risk to build because its a struggle to build enough light tanks bikes and turrets to fend off those dreaded med tanks. How many do you recommend I build early? So like 2 refinery start, 1 airfield and 3 helipads?

[chem]

What can 3 heli's take out? Is that enough for a repairing weapons factory or a moving  harvester?

 

 

[X3M]

Have 1 apache per group assigned. Then when you see a squad of infantry. Simply go by the numbers on your keyboard and select targets.
8 grenadiers? 1 and target a grenadier, immediately 2 and target another grenadier, immediately 3 and target another grenadier, etc. You have them fly in 1 by 1. But in very short succession. If no AA is present, you can go back to 1 and target more. The infantry will be sitting ducks.

Bazooka, if a few. Are obviously targeted first by this method. But if there are a lot, if would not recommend this.

When all infantry are gone in the "unprotected" force. The soft targets are next. humm-vee, apc and lastly the medium tank.

When a MRLS is present, have several apache's work together. I think 4 can do the job without losing one. But this needs to be tested.
More MRLS will manage to kill 1 or more apaches. I would not recommend doing this when there are more then 3.
When a Mammoth tank is present. You will not target it, and if infantry are around it like engineers or a commando. Only then it is worthwhile risking or losing your apache.

Guard towers are extremely weak against buggies. So 5 buggies or 1 apache, the choice is simple. But if by land is blocked, you need a couple of apaches still to do the job. But this situation is extremely rare.

[cn2mc]

Ya, no, you can't really have 3 apache groups and switch them up, and target individual men, unless you play at slower speeds. Sounds good on paper, but you really get swamped. So if you go for that, better build 1 apache and make it pay for itself and force out bazookas, etc. The MLRS is no real threat to orca/apache.

[AchromicWhite]

I think the threat of apache switch can be more powerful than the apaches themselves, exactly for the reason you spoke of about bazooka.
So you have to play an economic game. Not too hard to do due to apaches building fast. Means you can set up a big econ and then plant apaches to defend with. Between rocket troops and the occasional turret, GDI tanks can't push for a while (not without troop support).
For this sort of reason, I think that apaches are the true top tier Nod build, that no one uses. (Similar to Orca openings in GDI, v GDI). If you want to see the meta, play GDI more often vs high tier players.

8 hours ago, cn2mc said:

Ya, no, you can't really have 3 apache groups and switch them up, and target individual men, unless you play at slower speeds. Sounds good on paper, but you really get swamped. So if you go for that, better build 1 apache and make it pay for itself and force out bazookas, etc. The MLRS is no real threat to orca/apache.

I think that 2 apaches does kill troops faster. One on each control group and then push (if apaches were on 1 and 2) 1, click, 2, click, 1, click, 2, click. You could maybe do it with 3, as well.
I HAVE used orca in teams of 2 before. 2 Orca snipe light tanks etc, and lower med tanks to like 1 hp, pretty much. So it's a good way to not over fire, AND once you select targets (in the case of orca only here) you can then leave them while you micro/macro other stuff.

[X3M]

AchromicWhite gets it! Regarding group attacks that is.

I am used to have 3 groups with this when all warmed up. Although infantry are indeed hard to select on high resolutions. Tanks are easier. I do this a lot more with GDI vs GDI tbh. It is also more common and more cost efficient.

How many apaches are needed to kill a tank?

 

[cn2mc]

Two separately controlled helis is doable, but a very serious commitment both in cash and micro. Might just as well go for 3 and a base bust.

The biggest problem with apaches is the large ammo load and the way TD's air units are controlled. Firing at a stream of men running towards your base and constantly having to retarget the apache to keep it in the air and dealing damage is much more tasking than sending out 2-3 orcas to snipe a tank. 1 click vs. a dozen.

Being an almost exclusively GDI player, I do, very rarely, use two teams of orcas. That's either if I'm short on pads because I lost my CY and I can rotate the reloading easier, or I just have so many orcas that having them all in one group is overkill.

[Myg]

If you meet a group of grenadiers with an apache aim for the central one first.

[cn2mc]

Or shoot the stacked guys. When infantry are on the move they tend to stack on top of each other in the squares they pass until they reach their destination. This way you can do 2 kills with 1 shot, even with a no-spread weapon like the commando's rifle. 

[chem]

10 hours ago, AchromicWhite said:

I think the threat of apache switch can be more powerful than the apaches themselves, exactly for the reason you spoke of about bazooka.
So you have to play an economic game. Not too hard to do due to apaches building fast. Means you can set up a big econ and then plant apaches to defend with. Between rocket troops and the occasional turret, GDI tanks can't push for a while (not without troop support).
For this sort of reason, I think that apaches are the true top tier Nod build, that no one uses. (Similar to Orca openings in GDI, v GDI). If you want to see the meta, play GDI more often vs high tier players.

I think that 2 apaches does kill troops faster. One on each control group and then push (if apaches were on 1 and 2) 1, click, 2, click, 1, click, 2, click. You could maybe do it with 3, as well.
I HAVE used orca in teams of 2 before. 2 Orca snipe light tanks etc, and lower med tanks to like 1 hp, pretty much. So it's a good way to not over fire, AND once you select targets (in the case of orca only here) you can then leave them while you micro/macro other stuff.

So the threat of Apache's causes GDI to build bazookas which means less med tanks and naders, it also might cause an over production of bazookas meaning they are down money even compared with your expensive heli purchase? 

How many heli's do you recommend white and how early? 3 refinery start or 2?

 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by chem

[AchromicWhite]

As many as you think you can make, and not die.
The Apaches build REALLY fast, so you can start making them when the push happens, so long as you have the $$$

At LEAST 3. There's no point if you're only going for 2. The purpose is to grab $$$ and then say "haha, you can't do anything about this".
That way, if you out econ them, even if the apaches don't cost more than bazooka, you can still walk out with more money than they have.

Edited May 27, 2018 by AchromicWhite

[chem]

6 minutes ago, AchromicWhite said:

As many as you think you can make, and not die.
The Apaches build REALLY fast, so you can start making them when the push happens, so long as you have the $$$

At LEAST 3. There's no point if you're only going for 2. The purpose is to grab $$$ and then say "haha, you can't do anything about this".
That way, if you out econ them, even if the apaches don't cost more than bazooka, you cans till walk out with more money than they have.

Awesome thankyou Achromic White really appreciated!

[cn2mc]

The threat of apaches means less cash in general and less base building time for your opponent because he needs more barracks to defend, and that delays his build. A good player, like I pointed out in another thread, will not overproduce bazookas though. He'll just have the barracks ready and will keep an eye on you to check if you're building pads.

The apache is a very good unit, but really a hard choice for Nod - it's worth 5 buggies or 3 bikes. And if you don't make it worth at least as much, you're behind. Building one at the start can a) kill scouts; b) force some barracks and bazookas out if the enemy thinks you're going for a rush; c) damage harvs and generally harass; d) transition into a 2nd and possibly 3rd apache and start doing some serious damage.

Apaches are not good against tanks, but they do deal a fair amount of damage to harvesters, so if the factories and CY are out of reach they're prime targets. One apache is a mosquito, but two can get a harv down to yellow. 

What I'm saying is: apaches build quickly and you don't really need to commit. Build one, use it, see how it goes, rinse, repeat. And then, as White says, if you have the cash, build some more. 

[chem]

3 hours ago, cn2mc said:

The threat of apaches means less cash in general and less base building time for your opponent because he needs more barracks to defend, and that delays his build. A good player, like I pointed out in another thread, will not overproduce bazookas though. He'll just have the barracks ready and will keep an eye on you to check if you're building pads.

The apache is a very good unit, but really a hard choice for Nod - it's worth 5 buggies or 3 bikes. And if you don't make it worth at least as much, you're behind. Building one at the start can a) kill scouts; b) force some barracks and bazookas out if the enemy thinks you're going for a rush; c) damage harvs and generally harass; d) transition into a 2nd and possibly 3rd apache and start doing some serious damage.

Apaches are not good against tanks, but they do deal a fair amount of damage to harvesters, so if the factories and CY are out of reach they're prime targets. One apache is a mosquito, but two can get a harv down to yellow. 

What I'm saying is: apaches build quickly and you don't really need to commit. Build one, use it, see how it goes, rinse, repeat. And then, as White says, if you have the cash, build some more. 

:))) Thanks so much cn2mc and everyone , it means a lot that you all help me out so much especially since I've asked alot of questions!!

 

This gave me another idea, since starting cash is so important if you can get them to build a load of bazooka's early you really have done them some damage long term?  Because the heli's can be used all game the bazookas cannot be utilised very well and even though you are also down cash, nod stuff is cheaper and the bazookas can be gotten rid of easily so overall they are down more than you? Is 2 helipads a silly idea? It would be nice to snipe the power plants early too.

 

Im thinking 3 refinery start , hon , flamer scouts, 2 helipads  to get their scouts, power etc and most importantly to get them building bazookas, then  1 airfield and beat them in a money starved scenario where the cheap nod units and far more useful helicopters (rather than bazooka's) will out perform the GDI units which are now in low numbers which is also another vice for GDI?

 

So you spend more fast and early to force them to spend more fast and early which will result in a fewer unit less cash meta which favours nod?

Edited May 28, 2018 by chem

[AchromicWhite]

Yeah, exactly.
Build them in response to what is happening.
They build so fast, that if you have the cash, you can just be like; oh you didn't make AA, sweet, I made 5 apaches. Laters con yard.
OR if they did make AA, oh well, I just make buggies and kill you anyway.
Heck, if it's early game, you can pressure with flamers, too. Forcing grens/bazooka while you cash grab and set up.

[cn2mc]

The trick is to force the bazookas out and then find a way to kill them. Else you might end up losing your apaches, or being seriously limited in their use, while GDI retains their men. So you're now behind in cash and ground units, you lost your air advantage, and GDI has an even stronger defence because of the rocket men, and possibly an orca.

[X3M]

Be a shepherd. Cluster those bazooka together.

Now a simple apc to rush in with some flamers or a ssm-launcher will do.

Just one apache attacking their WF on a regular basis will force him to build bazooka around his WF. (Unless agt are his way). Nuke'm.
An apc with flamers might work here too. Simply have those flamers grouped if you wish to kill the WF first.