TD TierMaker for units

[AchromicWhite]

These things are all the rage right now, yeah?
This is MY pick for units, though I took some time moving them around, I'm not 100% sure it'd really be my final choice, and people may be able to change my mind on some. Still, I'm pretty happy with it and can describe why each one falls where it does.

It's important to note that what might bring one unit into a certain tier may not be the same reason another makes it.

The choices are based off of high level play, so not what makes it easy for a newbie to use, but if it can fulfil it's role with less APM, then that's obviously a bonus.



S Tier: The bread and butter of both teams, and the units that have no clear counter that simply wipes them out. The Apache is probably the outlier as it's technically a tech unit. However it's so good vs GDI, that a single 1 can often create an overcompensation that can win the game outright, counters it's own counters. The very sight of it completely changing how someone plays... even vs the high amounts of AA Nod has, it's still used.

A Tier: Complements to S Tier units, but not quite on par with them. Clearly they're all amazing anti-infantry, but all 3 of these bad boys also have their own roles outside of that use, and are solid at those roles. All require the opponent to change how they play and compensate accordingly, else take terrible terrible damage.

B Tier: Units that are attempting to counter S tier units and are doing a reasonably poor job at it. Many of them can be massed and are fine if you just have loads of them... but they have S tier counterparts that are more or less just better versions of the same thing.  The Orca is the outlier, great unit against GDI, can open with it or transition into it, probably A or even S vs GDI, but far too poor vs Nod to get a higher ranking... however, it does have some units against Nod, so it makes it up to B.
Also Engineers and Chinooks are pretty top notch, as they win plenty of games.

C Tier: These units do have uses, but when you use it and get damage done with it, you go "yay!" because it's so rare. If your opponent sees the units, they have clear counters and can be shut down pretty damn easily in most situations. One could make an argument that the artillery is more useful, but with the poor movement AND turn speed coupled with hilariously low HP, it's simply not B tier.

D Tier: "Please make me, I want to be in the game." You almost never see them, and if you do it's mostly for the memes. On a more serious note, the most major thing that sets them back is the price of tech.

Hopefully this link lets you also have access to making your own Tier list.
https://tiermaker.com/create/candc95-units-80479?presentationMode=true

Edited May 26, 2019 by AchromicWhite

[X3M]

The MRLS is higher if I where to make the list.

By the community balance patch, I feel that the MRLS will absolutely replace grenadiers in combat against bikes and buggies.
They also have anti air capabilities.

I agree on the Artillery. Seeing a group of Artillery watching as if they are watching a movie. Without throwing something, is cringy. Still, the few times that I used them for defence, they actually saved my ass. They are also my nr.1 choice when I crippled someone to infantry tier only. My artillery on B.

[AchromicWhite]

Oh, arty have won me games, but I've also won games with flame tanks (and been beaten by these units).
Unsure on MLRS. The tech and production barrier would stop it being a full replacement for grens, ever. Better than Chem Warrior, but so is the Stealth Tank.

I've never been beaten by any D tier units.

Edited May 25, 2019 by AchromicWhite

[X3M]

Only if they where in crates in the first minute. Then D tier certainly screws up a game.

[ore_truck]

Harvesters and MCVs are Tier S for me.

[AchromicWhite]

3 hours ago, ore_truck said:

Harvesters and MCVs are Tier S for me.

I'd have actually put harvesters on if there was more than 1 type, just to compare them.

[Hungry Mike]

Heres my tier list:

First of all, no unit is without any use. I am starting with D class units: Stealth tanks can be great to secure a draw, when you get all production buildings of your opponent(s) and ensure, he has not enough units to control map. Despite that, stealth tanks can be good to get revenge of enemies on ffa maps by harv harrassing like crazy; you can do that of course in regular game as well. Bikes will be cheaper and more efficient, as long as your opponent has no defense. With defense, stealths are better. Then you can use them to sneak in poorly defended bases and destroy mcvs. And lastly, they are ok in combats as well, as long, as other units are around. But be aware of technicians xD! Tech time, high costs and weakness on open combat compared to bikes and tanks make them a rarely used unit. There was once a stealth tank troll with the name Picachu.

AAs are even weak against helis/orcas/not better than bikes. GDI could need them tho, if you have no access to mammuths yet. With 2 or 3 of them they are ok against aircraft. But they can be superb to help out tanks against low armoured Nod units and against inf. Cat likes them.

Orcas can be good on tib maps to get ahead over opponents by destroying tanks or harassing harvs. But most of the time, they are weak against pros (rokets/bikes/sams). Good for orca rush tho. MashPotato, White and Ferret love them.

Minigunners are cannon fodder. They can be ok to help out in a buggie/bike fight tho. Weak against flammers and naders. But they have one major adventage over them: They dont explode and are therefore more mass fight compatible. Lovehandles loves to build them seperatly.

C-Units: Chem warriors are extremely underestimated imo in tib maps. They can stop bikes and stealths from harv harrassing and fight on any tib ground. Really helpful to get more flexible more control of the map and to destroy low armoured vehicles. Explode tho and need high tech.

Commandos are great for sneak attacks against bases and more importantly against Temples and Ion Cannons. Good to get some refs taken down, annoy your opponent, kill gdi inf and troll. Groefaz is a Commando-Priest.

Chinooks are good to ransport commandos and engineers, but poorly armoured and easy food for rokets/sams/mammuths/AAs. Under wise control very helpful (Groefaz).

Roket soldiers are very good, if you need defense against an incoming big tank army, if you control them wisely. Also good to get air control over your base. I put them only in class C, because they are weak at the start of the game. VERY UNDERESTIMATED UNIT. Phd is a master of them.

B-Units: Buggies are just extremely cheap and fast to be built. Great for the start. Lovehandles, Chem and Smt like to spam them, but Lovehandles even in later game. 

Humvees: More expensive than buggies and because of the weak armoured gdi warfac, after all weaker. Important against engi rushs tho. Lovehandles spams them, Phd uses them frequently.

Light tanks: Weaker than GDI tanks, but needed to fight against GDI armies. Good against Nod in later game, while immobile. Weak against inf. Chem loves to spam them later in game. 

Mammuth tanks: Important for late game, to fight against Orcas, but most importantly, to get the crap out of anything. Self healing, strong power. But slow and cost intensive. Not good for earlier and middle game. Justme, MashPotato and Groefaz like them.

Artillery: Great for fights at start against buggies, bikes, humvees and inf. Very underestimated. BUT: Slow, so either you have a good def or you should be careful with attacking with them!

Flamers: Extremly good for anti-inf, anti-scout and base defense, but weaker than naders. Good to get your base defended against a big buggie/bike-army. Pence and Smt use them frequently for that purpose.

Naders: Cheap and good against low class vehicles, but can explode, so you need to micro them well. Essential to survive at start as GDI. Phd and Ferret love them.

SSM: Good to get control in later game over Nod and forcing opponent to either build them as well or build tanks. Perfect to secure a strong position or to get better def, as well as attacking obelisks and guard towers. Weakly defended tho. Justme keeps spamming them.

B-Units:

Bikes are a just extremely fast, powerful and can harass so perfectly; and they are good for Anti-Aircraft. They are good against GDI, as well, if you use them carefully. Weak against inf. Has its downsides compared to light tanks. But the reason, why Nod is just so powerful at start. Speedy and Smt are bike spammers.

Flame tanks: Very, very good against buggies, bikes, humvees, inf, buildings.

Spoiler

But what few know: They are as strong as light tanks against other tanks. So you pay 200 $ more and get a much better tank.

Ok, the range is not that high. But they are extremely efficient to force opponents to get tanks and lose inf. Also good for getting out harvs quickly. Pence loves them...

"Medium tank": Just great. But weak at start of the game, unless you use a tank rush. If GDI survives the early period of the game, tanks make them superior. Just strong and better than any Nod vehicle. But be careful: They are weak against rokets, so if Nod kills GDI inf, tanks can get pretty weak. Obelisks are a prob too; thats why in later game, Mammuths are the better choice. Weaver and White are special fans of them, so was Bluysy.

S-Units:

Engineers: These poor, hungry men are hated by so many players, i wonder, why... Just great for an early rush to get out your opponent or later to "eat" refs to put his eco down or to get any building and crawl into his own base. But many players dont know how to use them well, nor do they know, how to defend them. Pence and Cn2 are Bachelors and Masters of Engineering...

APC: Very fast and well armoured, perfect to send a present to your opponent's base... Also good for crushing tons of inf.

Apaches: 4 Apaches = Death. Thats § 4 of the TD rule book. An apache rush is undefendable, if your opponent isnt scouted and you dont expect him to that. Even in later game, apaches can be great to get down mcvs and pps, but as long as your opponent has pps left (and can defend them), it may be better to just spam ground units. 6000 $ or 4 apaches are a hell of an expensive investment, so amke sure, you have enough units and buildings to defend your base. Chem creeps his opponents out with his heli love.

And then the E (Elite) Unit: BEST UNIT BY FAR IS THE TECHNICIAN! So powerful, wow, and you just need to sell a silo.

So thats my list :).

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2019 by OnePostPony

[AchromicWhite]

This is the FFA Tier list?
Interesting.

"Ok, the range is not that high. But they are extremely efficient to force opponents to get tanks and lose inf. Also good for getting out harvs quickly. Pence loves them..."

You are Pence.

[Hungry Mike]

On 5/29/2019 at 1:52 PM, AchromicWhite said:

This is the FFA Tier list?
Interesting.

"Ok, the range is not that high. But they are extremely efficient to force opponents to get tanks and lose inf. Also good for getting out harvs quickly. Pence loves them..."

You are Pence. 

In life, anything is a mystery ;).

No, thats the team game, ffa and 1vs1 tier list, but only for high practice gaming, not for, lets say, 2 games a week gaming. But sweet, that you cant be more specific.

Edited May 30, 2019 by OnePostPony

[cn2mc]

Pence just S-tiers the only units that he (sometimes, with luck) manages to use properly. Otherwise, this whole tier affair is quite pointless as it doesn't really apply to TD at all.

[Hungry Mike]

16 hours ago, cn2mc said:

Pence just S-tiers the only units that he (sometimes, with luck) manages to use properly. Otherwise, this whole tier affair is quite pointless as it doesn't really apply to TD at all.

;). Many players are masters of using big words against Pence, but if they really face the Butcher in game, their tone changes dramatically ;P.

[AchromicWhite]

I laughed a little too much at these last posts.
Just what I needed before bed time.

[Hungry Mike]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeBFsAajU_g&list=PLDyGE1hFrmtuDI-Oti9JCLzdThLzhzKx0&index=128&t=0s

 

Here is something great from Huni, so you can sleep better

[AchromicWhite]

The more I'd thought about this, the more I'm tempted to have put the Rocket Soldier into D tier.

Sure, it gets built often enough... but it's a unit that you only make if you really NEED it (as their isn't an alternate thing that could replace it), and then, unlike all the other C tier units, it can barely move with your army.

It's combination of a price, double build time over other basic infantry, coupled with it's terrible move speed and 1/2 hp... It's just a bad unit. At least units like the arty are priced about correctly, but are just hard to use. Rocket soldier is easy enough to use... but it's just bad.

[Lovehandles]

On 5/30/2019 at 7:42 PM, cn2mc said:

Otherwise, this whole tier affair is quite pointless as it doesn't really apply to TD at all.

Why do you believe this to be the case?

[cn2mc]

Mainly because it's a concept the game predates by possibly decades. It is also an exercise in oversimplification of unit relationships that are actually more complex. For example: C&C already has an inbuilt 7-tier tech tree complete with intricate prerequisites for hi-tech units and some pretty telling signs of what's supposed to counter what, or at least what general dynamics the developers originally intended.

At the same time, having 5 different tiers for a game with roughly 20 units you can build seems to me like overkill.

Lastly, the frequency of use of a unit should not be confused with its actual usefulness in particular circumstances. I never had to hide in a bomb shelter but it's nice to know there is one nearby. 

[X3M]

Well said cn2mc.

In a lot of RTS games: Some units are supposed to be build only once. For a particular reason.
There are armies, that will hold only 2 or 3 of a particular unit. This unit is not less useful than the rest of the army that it is standing in.

For TD, I feel that the APC and Engineer are for a particular reason. Yet in that regard, they are the best (only) choice. Thus taking over that building.
Once you have multiple choices for a particular reason, then the tier of usage can be felt.
Some units might be lower in the tier of usefulness for a particular reason. But if they have multiple reasons to be build. They can slowly climb that ladder again.

It can be based on RPS effects, personal taste, but also on bad designs.

I feel that the Rocket Soldier is one that fits the bad design category.
And the Pence strategy fits the personal taste category.

[AchromicWhite]

Yeah, I agree with the "just because a unit is used less often, doesn't mean that it's not useful". In many cases, a "bad unit" can win you the game.

As I stated, I've lost games to units in C tier. 
However, it's hard to deny that some units fill more roles and are more cost effective/easy to use. 

This thread was made for entertainment purposes. But it is fun to discuss as well.

Funny that you said that 5 tiers was too many... I actually had trouble placing more than one of these, because I wanted more slots, haha.

[cn2mc]

I'd use the game's tech tree and what I shall dub "accessibility" as a measuring stick, make it only 3 tiers, but also include defensive buildings and superweapons. "Accessibility" would be defined primarily by:

A) The tech steps (in buildings) that are required to make the unit, so 0, 1 or 2 prerequisite buildings;

B) The ease of use/cost-effectiveness/level of specialization of the unit.

 

Tier 1 -- these are the units you get right off the bat with the respective production building:

Barracks/HoN: minigunners, grenadiers, flamethrowers, rocket men.

Strip/WF: humvee, bike, buggy, m. tank, l. tank, arty, harv.

Helipad: orca, apache. Might be considered tier two just because of the cost and hassle of reloading, but are available so early that I'll put them here. 

CY: guard tower, turret.

 

Tier 2 -- those units requiring one additional tech building after prod. facility + tier 1 units that are too specialized or hard to use:

Barracks/HoN: engineers, they are both pricey and have just one single purpose, so that's why I think they belong here. 

Strip/WF: flame tank, stealth tank, mammoth tank, APC (not only does the APC require a barracks/HoN to build, but also it suffers from manual loading).

Helipad: chinook, because of ease of use issues.

CY: AGT, obelisk. 

 

Tier 3:

Barracks/HoN: commando, chem. warrior.

Strip/WF: MLRS, MCV, SSM.

Ion cannon, nuke. 

 

EDIT: shit, I forgot the SAM site. Tier 1. 

Edited June 6, 2019 by cn2mc

[Hungry Mike]

15 hours ago, cn2mc said:

Barracks/HoN: engineers, they are both pricey and have just one single purpose, so that's why I think they belong here. 

Lol. By your definition of "accessibility", they have to be on tier 1. They are easy to build, great, icecold, hungry.

Guard tower and obelisk both need only tech center, but obelisk is much more effective. Why GT at 1, Obelisk at 2?

15 hours ago, cn2mc said:

APC (not only does the APC require a barracks/HoN to build, but also it suffers from manual loading).

So true! They should fix these bugs.

15 hours ago, cn2mc said:

stealth tank

Within your definition, i would suggest him to be your tier 3 unit, because of his costs and build time.

The question of this thread really is, what unit is the most important, what the least important, and how you compare them. The most important units are the best units. So its about, what unit is best. But what makes a unit the best? Certainly, its efficiency to win the game. But games can be different, opponents can be different. So its about, what unit has the higgest efficiency for the whole ammount of games. If you have Phd, Chem, Pence, StarCraft, Smt or some extremely rarely seen players (:P), apache rushes will always have a great % of propability to win the game. Engineer rushs depend on a) your ability to micro b) the ability of the opponent to defend them c) bugs (engineer too dumb to go in, after 5 (!!!) orders, apc stops, moved like drunken idiot, freeze bug, and of course: the good old lag defense - ask Chem... :P). So for lets say White engineers wouldnt be tier 1 category, for Cn2 and Pence they should be tier 1. 

The same with any other units: Its relative, but we can all agree on some unspecific basic common ground: Bikes and Buggies wont be crap units and Chem Warriors wont be tier 1.

Edited June 7, 2019 by OnePostPony

[cn2mc]

On 6/7/2019 at 1:53 PM, OnePostPony said:

By your definition of "accessibility", they have to be on tier 1.

You should read more carefully. I clearly defined "accessibility" as:

A) The tech steps (in buildings) that are required to make the unit, so 0, 1 or 2 prerequisite buildings;

B) The ease of use/cost-effectiveness/level of specialization of the unit.

I bumped engineers up to tier 2 precisely because they're overspecialized. Sure, they can win you a game or give you an advantage over your opponent but they can't really save you in a fight and aren't useful for anything else but capturing buildings. They are completely useless in battle, while most of the other base tier units (save perhaps for rocket men and artillery) are generally very well-rounded in combat.

Quote

Guard tower and obelisk both need only tech center, but obelisk is much more effective. Why GT at 1, Obelisk at 2?

I think you are confusing the regular guard tower that has a machine gun for the advanced guard tower, which I put next to the obelisk at tier 2, where it belongs. 

You might have a point about the stealth tank, that it should be at tier 3, but I put it at 2 because I believe it's also quite a versatile unit. Good for scouting, good for harassment, good for precision strikes on buildings, good as a force multiplier because of its high damage output... Its use is rarely viable in 1v1, but it's a great unit in team games and FFA.

[Hungry Mike]

1 minute ago, cn2mc said:

I bumped engineers up to tier 2 precisely because they're overspecialized. Sure, they can win you a game or give you an advantage over your opponent but they can't really save you in a fight and aren't useful for anything else but capturing buildings. They are completely useless in battle, while most of the other base tier units (save perhaps for rocket men and artillery) are generally very well-rounded in combat.

Lol? How many times did i force opponents to role back and give me time by sending (fake) apcs? Tech steps: 0, ease of use/cost effectiveness: Highest. = Best unit, atleast highest Tier :P.

3 minutes ago, cn2mc said:

I think you are confusing the regular guard tower that has a machine gun for the advanced guard tower, which I put next to the obelisk at tier 2, where it belongs. 

No, but its funny you always presume others are dumb. Fact is: I meant the "real" guard tower, not the little one. And an obelisk is much better than these towers. So obelisk should be higher wiithin your system, because of higher cost effectiveness. 

5 minutes ago, cn2mc said:

You might have a point about the stealth tank, that it should be at tier 3, but I put it at 2 because I believe it's also quite a versatile unit. Good for scouting, good for harassment, good for precision strikes on buildings, good as a force multiplier because of its high damage output... Its use is rarely viable in 1v1, but it's a great unit in team games and FFA.

Yeah, i can understand that. We all have a certain taste and love for some units...

[cn2mc]

11 hours ago, OnePostPony said:

Lol? How many times did i force opponents to role back and give me time by sending (fake) apcs?

Eh, I don't know and I don't really care. Probably not many times. 

Quote

Tech steps: 0, ease of use/cost effectiveness: Highest. = Best unit, atleast highest Tier :P.

As already demonstrated, and as you already actually agreed in one of your previous posts, tech steps > 0. Or do you mean just engineers walking on foot? Don't make me laugh. 

Quote

No, but its funny you always presume others are dumb. Fact is: I meant the "real" guard tower, not the little one. And an obelisk is much better than these towers. So obelisk should be higher wiithin your system, because of higher cost effectiveness. 

I don't presume anything, you obviously ARE dumb. Here's the proof: you asked why the GT is on tier 1 and the obelisk on 2. If you meant the AGT, I put that on tier 2 with the obelisk, which means you're still dumb, because you didn't see that and asked a stupid question. You are also dumb because, realistically, you have no say on what should be where in my system, you clearly can't even understand it. 

[tac]

Here's mine. Only need 3 tiers to group them.

Group A: Basic necessities.

Group B: Support

Group C: Situational units.

[Hungry Mike]

12 hours ago, tac said:

Here's mine. Only need 3 tiers to group them.

Group A: Basic necessities.

Group B: Support

Group ? Situational units.

Engineers are not situational units . As well as light tanks. SSM is important on ffa maps or in later team game. Chem warriors are underestimated, but i wouldnt rank them higher than the others. In terms of use frequency, flame tanks get used only by Pence (some sources say, thats me ), but they are really strong.