TS Viewpoint Conflict

[Sol]

I think one of the most important points (that we should talk about) was made by Black on page 1:

On 4/10/2020 at 1:48 AM, Black said:

Corps, I think you should examine your perspective about one thing. TS, is absolutely in fact, OURS. The developers abandoned it. The game belongs to the community that loves it.

 

The community is basically divided into 3 groups:

1. The "ideological purists" or people that are satisfied with balance of the game and the maps.

2. The people who love the game and the maps as they are, but think that there are significant map and balance issues and do not think that it's wrong to change those.

3. The people who love the game but prefer totally different maps, with totally different gameplay/speed/balance/etc.. Some of these people might belong in group 2, but are here because either they got turned off because of the flaws of the game or just because we are all assholes there.

 

(I myself am in group 2, but that's not important here.)

Ideally we have a ranked system that is for EVERYONE. That gives us a couple of possiblities:

1.) We put in maps from all categories.

Problems: Many people would only want to play 1/3 or 2/3 of those maps, so we would need to be able to veto maps. If we could veto more than half the maps it would obviously mean that we could never play against certain people, essentially splitting up the ladder:

2.) We split the ladder into 3?

There's already not that many ranked games going on, so this probably wouldnt work and even if it did... Nobody would like this, right?

3.) We keep the game and the maps that were left to us by the developers.

Good for group 1, acceptable? for group 2, unacceptable for group 3.

4.) We accept the game is ours now, because we loved and played the game for 20 years. We democratically decide what kind of maps we put in, resulting in a win for group 2 (basically how it is now) or group 3. In all of these cases everyone else is left angry.

5.) We ROTATE! for example: May: original WW maps only, June: everything goes/giants/whatever you guys like, July: Vet maps

6.) FCK ladders. Create/Sponsor tournaments with whatever rules/maps/balance you like.

I dont know how to fix this, because we are in a stalemate and people wont change their views, no point discussing them. We should be more focused to find an actual solution, not to convince everyone of how good the balance changes of Vet are.

 

My best idea would be either 1) with 2/3 of maps vetoable or 5) the rotation approach. Oh and we should always do 6).

Edited May 5, 2020 by Sol

[Avesta]

42 minutes ago, Sol said:

I think one of the most important points (that we should talk about) was made by Black on page 1:

 

The community is basically divided into 3 groups:

1. The "ideological purists" or people that are satisfied with balance of the game and the maps.

2. The people who love the game and the maps as they are, but think that there are significant map and balance issues and do not think that it's wrong to change those.

3. The people who love the game but prefer totally different maps, with totally different gameplay/speed/balance/etc.. Some of these people might belong in group 2, but are here because either they got turned off because of the flaws of the game or just because we are all assholes there.

 

(I myself am in group 2, but that's not important here.)

Ideally we have a ranked system that is for EVERYONE. That gives us a couple of possiblities:

1.) We put in maps from all categories.

Problems: Many people would only want to play 1/3 or 2/3 of those maps, so we would need to be able to veto maps. If we could veto more than half the maps it would obviously mean that we could never play against certain people, essentially splitting up the ladder:

2.) We split the ladder into 3?

There's already not that many ranked games going on, so this probably wouldnt work and even if it did... Nobody would like this, right?

3.) We keep the game and the maps that were left to us by the developers.

Good for group 1, acceptable? for group 2, unacceptable for group 3.

4.) We accept the game is ours now, because we loved and played the game for 20 years. We democratically decide what kind of maps we put in, resulting in a win for group 2 (basically how it is now) or group 3. In all of these cases everyone else is left angry.

5.) We ROTATE! for example: May: original WW maps only, June: everything goes/giants/whatever you guys like, July: Vet maps

6.) FCK ladders. Create/Sponsor tournaments with whatever rules/maps/balance you like.

I dont know how to fix this, because we are in a stalemate and people wont change their views, no point discussing them. We should be more focused to find an actual solution, not to convince everyone of how good the balance changes of Vet are.

 

My best idea would be either 1) with 2/3 of maps vetoable or 5) the rotation approach. Oh and we should always do 6).

@Sol

I respect your imput but when it comes to competition one critical issue must be addressed. And that is fairness.

Fact of the matter is the only stock map that can be used for fair competition is Tunnel Training. We cannot have a meaningful ranking system where the maps being played give lopsided advantages to 1 player. Doing so would make the competition meaningless. 

While there is a minority that clearly wants that to be the case I see no other alternative than “forcing” them to deal with an environment that is fair for both players. 

We wouldn’t be having this discussion if stock maps were balanced. But simple math shows that they aren’t. You can open  final sun and delete tiberium patches to see the total value of tib in one spot vs an other. And you can count the grid units spacing one expand patch and others. It is critical that these things are equalized in order to have a playing field where there aren’t variables beyond the control of the players in the game. 

Its no different than having a Football game and requiring that one team wear a 20# weighted vest while the other team doesn’t. Or one team getting a goal post that’s 10’ wide while the other teams is 20’ feet wide. What does it prove if the team with the 10’ goal or no weighted vest wins? 

The issue isn’t legacy, it’s fairness. Fairness must be incorporated into competition. Suggesting otherwise implies that you have difficulty with basic life concepts like right and wrong or 1+1 equaling 2.

vet maps = fair

stock maps = not fair

thats all there is too it.. might as well close this thread.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Avesta

[amokk]

for what it's worth I started playing mod maps for variety, I got tired of stock maps after the first year, never went back the ultra competitive tezz players are ultra abusive.  Not a fan.  stayed with the mod players because they were calm cool, polite chill, and fun to play with and be around, 

after so many games I am better able to judge things, the only glitch that really bothers me is the plane glitch, other than that I am just fine with it. there is a counter to everything and i play in harmony with all the thing

giants

gso

carnage

conflict

warlord

land of war

several visceroid maps

4 continents

blast from the past

forever better

throwback

supremacy

ts for fun

land of death

visceroid pyrmids

battle day 8

 

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by amokk

[Avesta]

26 minutes ago, amokk said:

giants

gso

carnage

conflict

warlord

land of war

several visceroid maps

4 continents

blast from the past

forever better

throwback

supremacy

ts for fun

land of death

visceroid pyrmids

battle day 8

 

 

Amokk, Believe it or not I do try to respect your opinions as a person who has been playing this game for a very long time. Remember that the primary goal behind a competition system is balance and fairness.

I personally would not have any problems having some of those maps in the QM options as long as they're reject-able by the people who do not want to play them. The problem with many (battle day & giants for example) is that they unreasonably alter game mechanics (10x speed harvesters, super power plants, various modifications depending on which map version such as lowered cost to NOD units and increased cost to GDI units etc.). The space between player starting positions and long bottle necks also make it so that any unit that has to walk across land (titans, tick tanks, etc) are unusable. It's a poorly designed map that takes a lot of aspect of the game out of the equation even if we were to make a version of it that didn't drastically alter game mechanics.

Some of the maps you suggested are on the ladder like GSO and Throwback.

The vicroid maps don't make a lot of sense to be included in a tournament because there can be a lot of luck involved in being able to destroy the vicroids faster than your opponent. The maps also turns GDI into a unusable faction.

While Blast from the past is a fun map it is far from balanced and there are other maps available that offer a similar experience. 

Most of those maps I have never seen or heard of before.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Avesta

[amokk]

not all would be great candidates for a tourney, but they the ones we play

i am just suggesting you be open to a few of those we play also, and you would have more competition, not much at first....

please keep in mind that we are a lot more easy going than some of you, and it can be a bit abrasive to us interacting with some of the players........it won't be ultra competitive for me ever again, 

 

fun I hope. with good sportsmanship and a respect for all players no matter how they play.  gg to you all.

 

I understand the altered game mechanics that you are talking about, and that is my primary issue with the vet patch.

I feel the same way. I know it fixes some of the things that bother you,  but it alters the balance of some things like the mods do. we both don''t like that!  granted the mods are a bit more pronounced.....

and I might get motivated to actually try when I play, 

i so rarely get fired up and focused. it would be fun for me. 

 

I also try to listen to what you have to say, , I have no hard feelings toward  you. I so like it when we discuss something civilly. we have done that in the past. I know all of you have had different experiences, and have different personalities. 

 

Please. just share the server with us, and even if you don't like what we play, let us play it. Co-exist...respectfully

here are a few of the ones we have played over the years...  variety is the spice of life!!!!

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by amokk

[Tibermach]

yeh and look how FS went to shit lol 

[Avesta]

22 minutes ago, Tibermach said:

yeh and look how FS went to shit lol 

Whats your response to the videos I posted about the tick tanks?

[Tibermach]

a bomber blows up tick tanks? old news

[amokk]

why don't we work on making fair maps 

there are some mapmakers around

sketch some out and post them!!!

we can make them even fair, whatever criteria you desire 

no pads that will go commando on you.....

what does everyone think about that??

I think redemption is a cool map couple of angles to work not just a open play

I bet it would work out well

Edited May 6, 2020 by amokk

[Avesta]

1 hour ago, amokk said:

why don't we work on making fair maps 

there are some mapmakers around

sketch some out and post them!!!

we can make them even fair, whatever criteria you desire 

no pads that will go commando on you.....

what does everyone think about that??

I think redemption is a cool map couple of angles to work not just a open play

I bet it would work out well

look under the balanced-vet catagory when opening the map selection menu. There are heaps of custom/original maps.

We can make more for $15/hour (takes 30-60 hours per map).

[Weaponx]

"Why dont we work on making fair maps"

Have you been sleeping? what do you think VET maps are, if not fair?

Vet maps = fixes issues with balance of teams, bugs and maps.

[Hungry Mike]

@amokk I agree with you fully! I think those maps you mentioned should be vet balanced and then get into the map pool, too. Giants has to be there, i mean: 90 % of TS players only play this map. Dont forget the wonderful map "Small Ville" tho. Is Inferno in the mix yet?

For my part: Vet is wonderful, its a complete success. I can accept both letting old Vanila maps be part of the ladder or not. But the old players just love this game as much as we do, and they want to compete, as well. So let them play their BUG+ maps maybe in a seperate ladder? If not, its fine, too.

@Avesta: Yeah, Vet is much fairer, and many maps are unfair. But if both players agree on playing a map: They accepted that unfairness. Its like making a contract to buy a long time used car. You accept the flaws, but get a cheaper price for it (lol). Prob: Noone will unselect every map he doesnt like, it will take too much time.

For the rest: The Vet Bal is great, and who complains about it, only shows how stupid he is.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Hungry Mike

[amokk]

2 hours ago, Hungry Mike said:

The Vet Bal is great, and who complains about it, only shows how stupid he is.

yep, that's me, stupid........

it's a set of changes (modifications) that I just don't like, but wait it's the gift that keeps on giving.. I like TS as it is without those.

let me double down on my stupid.

no matter what map has been vet balanced(modded, changed balanced altered,fixed), I just don't like the changes it makes.

 you missing that..

 

so again feel free to play your (let me walk you through this. fixed>> changed >> modified>>) mod maps, just don't make me play your mod maps, I don't like them.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by amokk

[Hungry Mike]

22 minutes ago, amokk said:

yep, that's me, stupid........

it's a set of changes (modifications) that I just don't like, but wait it's the gift that keeps on giving.. I like TS as it is without those.

let me double down on my stupid.

no matter what map has been vet balanced(modded, changed balanced altered,fixed), I just don't like the changes it makes.

 you missing that..

 

 

Why do you dont like it? Why dont you like bugs getting fixed? Or Arnolds getting a slightly bit more strength? Instead of crying, appreciate the work of the ones, who made the Vet Bal.

[amokk]

I need the protein.

You like classical music right?

no matter how perfect, beautiful, ect. whatever your reasons for you liking it?

some just don't.  right?

 

it is subjective, and i am not you. i have my own tastes

now listen to it,, if you like  just don't make every map on ts classical we have other tastes

and I am saying some maps on the ladder without those changes

and the client without those changes.

and my games without those changes.

your games how you like them, just don't force it on me, no matter your reasons. no matter how much better you think it is

 

how often in the history of mankind has this played out?

I think it is for your own good it is better, you just don't see it..., no, I have free will and I like something different. 

that is what you are up against

I CRY OUT!!!  >>> you will have to pry the stock, un-Vet Balanced  Tiberian Sun out of my cold dead hands.

 

and I am saying some maps on the ladder without those changes

and the client without those changes,

and my games without those changes

yours, as you like it, mine as I like it.

 

feel free to play your (let me walk you through this. fixed >>= changed >>= modified>>=) mod maps, just don't make me play your mod maps, I don't like them.

 

i guess until you can understand that I appreciate your maps, but.....

your ''fixes' are still changes, and they are not to my taste. 

we will go round and round.

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by amokk

[Avesta]

46 minutes ago, amokk said:

yep, that's me, stupid........

it's a set of changes (modifications) that I just don't like, but wait it's the gift that keeps on giving.. I like TS as it is without those.

let me double down on my stupid.

no matter what map has been vet balanced(modded, changed balanced altered,fixed), I just don't like the changes it makes.

 you missing that..

 

so again feel free to play your mod maps, just don't make me play your mod maps, I don

t like them

 

 

 

Can you name 1 change that’s been made through Vet?

[amokk]

I have 20 years experience with the current mechanics/balance of the game. any change would rob me of that.

and we can have both right ?

Edited May 6, 2020 by amokk

[Tibermach]

call a spade a spade right

its a mod

They should allow for classic TS

 

 

[amokk]

we should, and I gladly will, allow for their mods for any who  choose   to play them

Edited May 6, 2020 by amokk

[Weaponx]

Amokk is just an idiot.

He can’t even back up what he doesn’t like about vet, and the guy plays fucking giants the worst mod map of mods, not true to the game at all and he complaining about being true to the game?

 

what a fucking Idiotic hypocrite.

all I can say is, stfu and learn to live with it.
 

End of story & topic, since you bring no valid input and can’t answer any questions when asked.

 

[amokk]

what i really don't like is the thought of not having a choice, especially when i can have a choice

someone making me, especially someone with no standing to....especially when it can be both ways...... is awfully unbearable.

that is what i don't like,  .....what  I will back up my comments with ...if you need a articulated reason.....