If we could make a balance patch for RA, what would we change? NEW: CHANGE IDEAS

[Ford (retired)]

• I'm interested in modding, so I've decided to see what the community thinks about the state of the game. What do you guys consider overpowered or underpowered and why? I don't want to hear crying over tanks, or Q'ing because I don't want to make a mod that hurts the competitive game mechanics and viability, but instead allow different options to be used. HOPEFULLY once I start to make the changes, pro players will decide to use them as an alternative and use my patched maps.
   
  I'll start
  
  • Medics are way too expensive, and don't add much benefit in infantry combat for their price (such as on KotG)
    
  • Yaks are trash, they should either be good vs Wood buildings or large groups of units
    
  • Mammoth Tanks are slow, and are not worth being built (except max buildspeed p4)
    

 

[glow=red,2,300]EDIT: [2/13/2015][/glow]

 

    I will list my ideas of changes and reasoning behind them, lets hear your opinions too

I haven't implemented any changes into maps yet, I want to hear feedback.

 

Medics:

• Cost reduced to 250 from 800
  

    Reasoning: Makes them useful in Allied infantry combat (especially on KotG).

 

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Thief

• Reduced cost to 400
  
• No longer requires a Tech Center
  

    Reasoning: Any good player will not have left over funds to steal, so Thieves can still remain useful and cheese an enemy economy early in the game if the enemy isn't prepared.

 

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Artillery

• Ranged increased to 9 from 6
  
• Health increased to 125 from 75
  

    Reasoning: Very situational (probably only used them once to stop grenadier rush), but they are too fragile and low range to properly mount a siege on an enemy base.

 

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Ranger

• Uses Tracked Movement type (still cannot crush infantry)
  
• Weapon damage increased from 15 to 30 (affects APC)
  
• Cost reduced to 500 from 600
  

    Reasoning: They were slower than Tanks and were just useless overall. I intend for them to be used as a niche harassment unit against powerplants, if they need more improvements I'll see to it.

 

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Pillbox/Camo Pillbox

• Damage increased to 50 from 40
  
• RoF Increased to 30 from 40
  

Reasoning: They were a little weak against infantry (Flame Tower 1 shots infantry in an AoE), but I tried not to tweak them too much because they are surprisingly effective against Tank Rushes already, and are more durable against tank shells than Turrets and Teslas (LOL?)

 

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Dogs

• Hp increased to 25
  
• Sight Increased to 6
  

    Reasoning: Makes them more valuable, and won't get instantly killed by anything. Dogs should be a counter to grenadiers/rockets, while Rifle infantry remain a counter to Dogs.

 

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Flamethrower

• RoF increased to 35 from 50
  
• Health increased to 80 from 40
  
• Speed increased to 5 from 3
  
• Range increased to 4 from 3.5
  
• Cost Increased to 400 from 300

    Reasoning: When you build a tech center, Flamethrowers should feel powerful in the late game, and a superior choice of infantry compared to the grenadier.

 

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Mammoth Tank

• Damage increased to 60x2 from 40x2
  
• Projectile Speed increased to 50 from 40
  

    Reasoning: As a late game unit, they can now deal with other faster tanks and not be outclassed as easily. Mammoth Tanks aren't only good in p4 maps now.

 

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Chinook

• Cost Reduced to 400 from 1200
  

    Reasoning: As an Air Unit and air being Soviets advantage, they should feel compelled to use them more often with less punishment considering they are easy to counter already.

 

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Submarine

• Armor Changed to Heavy
  
• Health Increased to 160 from 120
  

    Reasoning: Cruiser force fire will be less effective against submarines while other naval combat remains unchanged.

 

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Missile Sub

• Armor changed to Heavy
  
• Health increased to 200 from 150
  

    Reasoning: Cruiser force fire will be less effective against submarines while other naval combat remains unchanged.

 

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Airfield

• Reduced cost to 500 from 600
  

 

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Yak Remake

• Drops 5 bomblets, dealing 400 fire damage each
  
• Health increased to 120
  
• Cost increased to 1800
  
• Requires Tech Center
  

    Reasoning: Considering that the Cruiser is ridiculously strong end game Naval option, Yak's I felt can be the ridiculous Aerial option late game for soviet. With these changes a few yaks can destroy a base if undefended, 2-3 can kill a refinery, but so can Cruisers. Anti-air is really effective against this attack.

 

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MiG's

• Missile speed halved to better acquire moving targets (moving in the same direction as the mig attack will still dodge missiles)
  
• Uses laser-guided projectile type (Rate of Turn improved)
  
• Damage increased to 60 from 50
  

    Reasoning: Can be used against Harvesters and Tanks more reliably.

 

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Helicopters

• To be decided, give me ideas?!?
  

    Reasoning: I'm think whether to lower the Tech Tree of helicopters to a refinery, cost 800 for helipad, comes with no helicopter; OR Just increase the damage of helicopters by 50% and/or cost to 800.

 

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ALL FAKES

• Cost is 20% of the original
  
• Inherits 50% of the original health
  
• No longer costs power
  

    Reasoning: Can do some cool deceptive tricks against Engi Rushes, Tank Rushes, and also useful for blocking tanks from reaching priority buildings.

[Guest ehy]

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[MJC9210]

Please help someone........

 

I have just joined this forum as i am stuck with the game, and can't find the answer on the net anywhere. I was wondering if you could help please? When i hover over a building with an engineer selected it shows red arrows, not green ones - does anyone know what makes the engineer arrow turn green, so i can take the building.??

 

many thanks,

 

Matthew

[bmoeller]

Read this Mjc http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Engineer_%28Red_Alert_1%29

Sorry for helping hijack this thread maybe a moderator can move this

[lemonizer]

TBH the aftermath ruleset makes the game much more rounded. Non of this loads of construction yards + tesla nonsense.

 

[bmoeller]

What? "Non of this loads of construction yards + tesla nonsense." One of the best things about the game is building constructions yards so you can kick out structures  super fast. Tesla aren't hard to stop with these guys. Teslas actually r useless when u have a bunch of v2 rockets sitting around

[lemonizer]

No good if you are the allies, hence why the aftermath rules are better. Makes for a more rounded game.

 

[bmoeller]

I didn't know people played with the allies

[Ford (retired)]

Yes I would play that mod which makes every unit and building use its max potential without killing the game speed or classic tanking or cying mechanics.

That said original Red Alert can't be patched to be something else, it must remain honorably untouched, but a standalone mod could be successful.

This could be something really nice if the community has interest and builds it openly together.

 

Too bad as of now RA can't be perfectly balanced anyway (without a fix for south advantage, truck patterns, building direction, sidebar side :roll: and a few other things)

 

I was thinking of just making a bunch of maps with the changed ruleset, so you could just host them on CnCNet as usual.

 

As for the south advantage, truck patterns and such, most of that could be alleviated based on map layout if you make a Left vs Right map, unlike the top corner vs bot corner. For the truck patterns, that may be more difficult, but I can start by balancing what I'm able to balance

[lemonizer]

I didn't know people played with the allies

 

In a team game one allied player gives that team a huge advantage. Unless, of course, the map is designed for the Russians.

 

 

 

[Jacko]

I didn't know people played with the allies

 

In a team game one allied player gives that team a huge advantage. Unless, of course, the map is designed for the Russians.

 

So pretty much every single "pro" map (maybe except ribbon)

[X3M]

Implementation of The Aftermath..... solves about 70% of the problems.

 

The chrono tanks are to be used against mass CY and even better Power Plants. Thus Teslacoils suffer the consequences of no energy.

 

 

Further, most maps are about amassing mass massive tanks. Too much resources! Get some low resource maps out there for the people who like micro instead of macro.

 

I agree on the medic by the way.

I guess the mechanic could become cheaper as well.

 

400 and 500 instead of 800 and 950?

[FunkyFr3sh]

Aftermath is included, you have to enable it via a checkbox in the game room

 

There is also a slow unit build option that slows down the tank production speed

 

Tick these two boxes and play a original map with low resources and you should have a total different gameplay, maybe you like it more like this

[X3M]

I should stick to one forum with these remarks .

 

Any way, I am going to search for this option now. Aftermath>>>RA.

 

Edit:

Somewhere I saw a complaint about the Yak being to expensive. Think they are right. Perhaps 600 for a Yak.

Dog's are not used; 200 is too much too. 1 dog equals 1 rifle infantry in combat. The most alert one wins. Thus the dog should be 100 only.

These price modifications are only a wild guess thought.

[Zjorz]

I suggest 2 subtle changes:

 

Remove the rocket soldier for the soviet side (like in the campaign) This gives the allied player an early game advantage.

Remove tanya for the soviet side (also like the campaign) this will make the allied player a bit stronger late game.

 

About rebalancing: I dont think this will work. People are used to a certain play style for over 10 years. If you change this it will divide the community.

[X3M]

Sorry for being a bit more practical.

But why even a topic about this if there aren't going to be made changes?

[Jacko]

Sorry for being a bit more practical.

But why even a topic about this if there aren't going to be made changes?

 

Because we can write our own (basic) mods to do what we want (or close to) anyway. (see my signature for an example)

[X3M]

Well, in that case. A thank you in advance.

 

I got many idea's, but others should post as well.

 

Start with resource managment: Even though spam feasts are fun. Low resource games should be possible and constant.

Ore should regrow faster, but only in a limited distance from an ore pit.

C&C3 is a good example for this.

You need to "conquer" new fields (securing the ore pit). (Trying the same on Dune2000 right now)

 

The aftermath units add a lot of fun and balance. I hope you simply include them?

 

Could you increase the sight range for a construction yard? +3 would do. After all, on big maps I rather start with a Refinery than barracks.

But I would like to know in which direction to build. And I want to build more open, even with the first 2 structures. Right now, the first few are all adjacent because vision is limiting me in placement.

 

[Furry Fox]

One of the main problems of balance, this bonus countries. Russian bonus low price makes them IMBA. Because of a Heavy tank for them is only 854$ instead 950$. The bonus applies to buildings too. I would suggest to remove all the playing country and replace them with three points * Random, Allies and  Soviet * without any bonuses. Or just reset\delete all bonuses countries.

[r34ch]

Honestly, to make RA truly balanced for today (a la starcraft), the game would be somewhere in the middle of the RA1 engine, RA2 usability and open RA balance.

 

Everything in RA1 is utterly fucked, from the economy, the basic controls to the god awful unit balance.

That's why it's great.

 

:trollface:

[Ford (retired)]

One of the main problems of balance, this bonus countries. Russian bonus low price makes them IMBA. Because of a Heavy tank for them is only 854$ instead 950$. The bonus applies to buildings too. I would suggest to remove all the playing country and replace them with three points * Random, Allies and  Soviet * without any bonuses. Or just reset\delete all bonuses countries.

 

The price reduction doesn't affect build speed, so Allied armies can build a stronger army in a given time frame because of the 10% damage bonus. The price reduction only applies when you actually run out of cash, other than that Russia has no advantage until later in the game where players are low on resources. Russia has a better late game.

 

Sorry for being a bit more practical.

But why even a topic about this if there aren't going to be made changes?

 

I am going to make the changes, once I get some feedback and implement them into maps.

[X3M]

A good game has no spam feasts. Thus removing the bonus on Russia is included in the lowering resource management.

Let's say that that is a package deal when balancing the game.

 

OR

 

changing the reduction in 5% instead of 10%.

 

Please keep in mind that with normal resource managment (still plenty to keep production). Also means, Russia can continue 10% longer at this current game. While others simply "stop" production.

[Zjorz]

There are a few core things to keep in mind:

You cant rebalance units after they where like this for 20 years. It will devide the small red alert community

The game engine has limitations

 

In my opinion there are a few simple fixes that could rebalance gameplay. Use campaign unit balance:

Rocket soldier & tanya allied only

Parabombs for the soviet player

 

Remove country bonusses. They give the soviet player another bonus they dont actually need. Just make every country vanilla/ without bonus.

 

By doing this the game wont suddenly become balanced. It will just make the game a little less imbalanced.

 

A few tweaks i would like to see myself (non balance related)

All infantry selfheal, remove field medics

Instant capture engineers

remove sandbags/barbed wire

attack dogs buildable via soviet baracks, remove kennel

Remove redundant stuff like: camo pillbox, ranger, yak

[X3M]

There are a few core things to keep in mind:

You cant rebalance units after they where like this for 20 years. It will devide the small red alert community

The game engine has limitations

True. The solution to this would be having the new balance a new of the creator. And calling it a mod.

Example: "Zjorz Balance Mod"

 

All infantry self heal, agreed.

But the medic may stay. Yet, they should make the medic cheaper and/or faster in his job.

The kennel is indeed useless. But dogs are to expensive too, 100 each I think. Them dying instantly from bullets is what makes them so useless. And they only can chew on infantry.

 

The redundant stuff, I would keep them in. But rebalancing them. This in combination with the resource management of course.

 

And final, the squishing, is still OP.

In C&C3 you see a stacked group of infantry. Yet the tank has problems running them over. They only get 1 soldier at a time. So you see the tank humping the group of infantry. (which is funny to watch )

They need to get this in RA too. Or change the costs of tanks accordingly. If shooting an infantry is worth 50 (weapon rifle infantry). Then the tanks do this about 4? times faster on 1 and they do 5 at the same time. Thus 20 x 50 is 1000. Yes, crushing infantry is worth that much when it is done at the same range as the rifle. However, you need to get closer for squishing. Thus it would be less, perhaps around 750 or so. I don't know the addition % of costs for every range. A light tank would be about 1450. An heavy tank would be about 1700. Simply due to the fact of crushing.

 

Squishing is not an ability, but a weapon. With that in mind, every new RTS can be balanced much more easily. (I can't prove, but some one did get my memo )

[Ford (retired)]

And final, the squishing, is still OP.

In C&C3 you see a stacked group of infantry. Yet the tank has problems running them over. They only get 1 soldier at a time. So you see the tank humping the group of infantry. (which is funny to watch )

They need to get this in RA too. Or change the costs of tanks accordingly. If shooting an infantry is worth 50 (weapon rifle infantry). Then the tanks do this about 4? times faster on 1 and they do 5 at the same time. Thus 20 x 50 is 1000. Yes, crushing infantry is worth that much when it is done at the same range as the rifle. However, you need to get closer for squishing. Thus it would be less, perhaps around 750 or so. I don't know the addition % of costs for every range. A light tank would be about 1450. An heavy tank would be about 1700. Simply due to the fact of crushing.

 

Squishing is not an ability, but a weapon. With that in mind, every new RTS can be balanced much more easily. (I can't prove, but some one did get my memo )

 

I don't feel like Infantry are underpowered. The reasons for this is that you can mix infantry with tanks and its effective in Q battles if you can properly block the tanks from crushing your infantry. Infantry can also destroy a base before tanks can be spammed, quite easily.

Also, you can use Ctrl Groups plus formation so escort infantry to a base faster.

 

Just because you see people spam tanks, doesn't mean its overpowered.