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The Allied Topic

Lucifer

By Lucifer
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Lucifer Newbie

Lucifer

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Ive been getting alot of questions on discord/gr/cncnet about allies, whats ur secret? , video requests, etc....Given  the 12,000 views /300 replies in the allied vs soviet balance question topic alone, Ive figured  its time to revamp Veg's original discussion.

At the very least we can kick aside the tumbleweed bouncing around.

 

 

If you have any questions about allies i can answer them here 

 

 

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Korc Newbie

Korc

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Hey, wanna hear you're opinion on different building options and allied player has when facing a soviet in a 1vs1. For instance would you recommend trying to kick out more miners at the beggining, then your opponent, on medium and small maps? Because I sometimes get caught off gaurd and overwhelmed due to tank build speed. Also, what is your opinion on ggi ifv's because I find them very strong in combo with the ctrl+shift tactic. However this is offset by the drawback of having to manually send the ggi inside. I have more questions/topics, but i'm gonna stop at this for now.

 

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MapDesigner Newbie

MapDesigner

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6 hours ago, Lucifer said:

  

If you have any questions about allies i can answer them here

?

RA2 or YR too? anyway

Q1: what would you hate your opponent will do when you plan to make battle fortresses?

Q2: What units would you hate to face when you already built some or many Battle Fortresses?

Q3: is there anything you ever face harder than Sov. Rush? if yes, what is it?

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Lucifer Newbie

Lucifer

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23 hours ago, Korc said:

Hey, wanna hear you're opinion on different building options and allied player has when facing a soviet in a 1vs1. For instance would you recommend trying to kick out more miners at the beggining, then your opponent, on medium and small maps? Because I sometimes get caught off gaurd and overwhelmed due to tank build speed. Also, what is your opinion on ggi ifv's because I find them very strong in combo with the ctrl+shift tactic. However this is offset by the drawback of having to manually send the ggi inside. I have more questions/topics, but i'm gonna stop at this for now.

 

generally speaking, u want to get as many miners as possible. Even on medium and small maps like bloodfued. 

The key to safely slipping the extra miner in is your afc. Rockets + early paradrop + well placed pillboxes to hold off the pressure and then counter attack. Or in some cases planes or a mix of all 3 depending on how much money you have. 

 

That being said, ur second question stems directly from this--

 

GGI ifvs I view as a concession ; completely secondary.  If a sov player forces early GGI ifvs from you, consider yourself behind.

Reasons:

- u will have less air (the most important thing at the allied disposal) 

-u will have less grizzly (this is important because grizzlies can directly assault AND ALSO defend, GGI ifvs can only defend

- they are redundant. Paradrops, mirage tanks (which you are making ggi ifvs to buy ur self time for ) are all countered by the same thing, namely, desos. 

in short, more miners + less ggi ifvs = you are both less vulnerable to tactics (particularly middle game tactics involving desos) and more capable of tactics yourself (particularly sniping miners and battle labs)

By tactics i mean active plans involving moving ur units on ur opponents side of the map potentially doing damage and getting ahead. GGIvs do not offer this, so ur voluntarily putting the sov player in the driver seat. Yes ur more set up against early game direct pushes from rhinos, but you can do that with the more tactically dynamic units (griz+rocket)

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Lucifer Newbie

Lucifer

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20 hours ago, MapDesigner said:

?

RA2 or YR too? anyway

Q1: what would you hate your opponent will do when you plan to make battle fortresses?

Q2: What units would you hate to face when you already built some or many Battle Fortresses?

Q3: is there anything you ever face harder than Sov. Rush? if yes, what is it?

either.

 

1.  i do not plan on making battle fortress unless the situation calls for it -- they are strictly a situational unit due to their lack of movement and high cost.  If that is ur plan from the beginning -- make BF -- then u should revise ur plans.

 

-If your opponent attacks you in the middle game and manages to kill a miner or 2 while ur trying to tech and get up the super expensive BF, ur dead.

-If he snipes ur blab in same situation, ur dead

-The most annoying thing to deal with is splits-- a direct abuse of the BF's lack of movement and lack of numbers. 

Odds are sov are going to find game-winning damage if you go for fast BF. Or they will just not even care and just go fast IC and attack you with invulnerable units.

 

2.   invulnerable rhinos

 

3.  hardest thing to deal with imo is a well-controlled tank split in the middle game from sov. 

 

 

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[CC] RaVaGe Apprentice

[CC] RaVaGe

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47 minutes ago, Lucifer said:

3.  hardest thing to deal with imo is a well-controlled tank split in the middle game from sov. 

Also works the other way, sov chilling on CS all out tanked being lazy and then outta nowhere 4 way mirage split like you're fucking omniscient and he stops moving units because you ruined his slumber.

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Lucifer Newbie

Lucifer

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In ra2 Korea and America are about equal, it's really a matter of taste. 

America is just easier to use and more llikely to stabilize after a mistake. (Endless free troops are pretty good) 

in yR the paradrops is extra strong so America > Korea. 

Korea is better on maps (both ra2 and yr) where early air is extra strong  or, more importantly, the sov main threat on the map is a mix between the blab timing (dread/ic/kirov) + rhinos knocking at ur door. Maps like tour B, tour A, stormy weather, etc where sniping the blab is more important than increasing ur army with paras. 

 

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MapDesigner Newbie

MapDesigner

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1

On 7/27/2018 at 11:39 PM, Lucifer said:

 

3.  hardest thing to deal with imo is a well-controlled tank split in the middle game from sov. 

2

On 7/28/2018 at 2:02 AM, Lucifer said:

Hell  yeh man multi-pronged attacks in general are the most difficult tactic to deal with.  That's why I prefer allies-- faster / more disposable units. 

3

On 7/28/2018 at 12:34 PM, MapDesigner said:

So you think that allies, overall, are better than soviets?

 
thats how I see the implication, becuz they can Deal with split better than soviets. xD

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Lucifer Newbie

Lucifer

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oic

allies have more to work with in terms of #s and mobility, but the soviets  have more to work with in terms of efficiency-- Rhinos are less in numbers and move slower but they have more armor, range, and firepower.  So both teams can split, but they do so in different ways. Saying one way is better doesnt follow imo. 

^ A microcosm of what allied vs soviet is. 

Rocketeers are the most dynamic unit in the game but even decently sized groups of them are countered by a single flak track.

Desolators are terribly slow but can counter a large split  due splash damage.

Air craft carriers are more likely to poke a hole in you and make you bleed to death; dreadnaughts are more likely to kill you in a few seconds

Chronosphere teleports things , iron curtain turns things invulnerable

Spies are sneaky,  apocs are not

etc.

 

A classic struggle between the direct and indirect. Which approach is better?

Who would win in a fight, 100million hornets or Godzilla?

 

 

imo this is not a place to start if we're gonna talk about balance 

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Lucifer Newbie

Lucifer

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-prioritize  them as team #1

-have them up front so the sov need to have the flak closer to ur grizzlies to make a move 

-move ur grizz toward the flaks, when the flaks are in motion, ur rockets fly in, chip away at the rhinos, fly away. Rinse and repeat. 

-Split alot and look for openings where ur rockets are uncontested, fly in, chip away, fly out. rinse and repeat

-force the sov to commit to a fight in a key location at a key time, fly the rockets in to support and u can sacrifice as many as u need if it means winning the fight 

-avoid the fight entirely ; basetrade. 

 

 

 

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Lucifer Newbie

Lucifer

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On 8/5/2018 at 9:57 AM, VWWWWWWWWWWW said:

Ok Frank, what questions do you have for grandmaster Matt about allies? 

if im the Veg, ur the W0nna. Feel free to help the discussion 

Although every1 knows veg always countered w0nna  :tongue:

btw didnt mark and i trash u and max 4-1 last time, mr grandmaster? 

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VWWWWWWWWWWW Newbie

VWWWWWWWWWWW

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And we rekt you guys 4-1 as well the prior week? Plus I think we humiliated you in 3-4 other series when you kept trying to team with different people. Count all ours wins up for me and let me know the results.

Your allies are pretty good, yeah. But in most of those games I kept cutting through you like butter with a bunch of obs =]

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