Hungry Mike

But if they let you in, the game will suck. There should be some "Beginners Only" rooms for noobs so they can learn giants. But better is to wait for 2 noobs and split them to the 2 teams, so teams are fair again. But the TS community is mostly not capable of using the letters A, B, C or D or the numbers 1-8. In RA, its easier to get pure noob games, but they kick you out of pro games as well. In TD, there is a much higher chance to get in, but you will meet Phd, Pence or Chem most of the time, who will eat you up for breakfest. So you have to go through it, it will take time!

Wow :D. Looks very nice, you really invested a lot into this. I will read it tomorrow, but thanks for your nice work anyway Hamed .

Thx, Holland :). The same goes for you! I doubt that i have an "positive" influence, but its just much more honest and real in TS and kind of friendly too. Tho sources say this heart at the end makes someone high in office uncomfartable (whos still Nr. 2 until the year 2020...) lol.

Hahaha, Holland. Now i know, where you get your ideas for these very untypical and fun maps from! Well, i thought in a general discussion forum we could talk about off-topic things lol. Despite that, it has some parallels to Ts gaming: Me and Firestar vs 3 or me and Jaro vs 3. I won all 4 2vs3 games (now i am proud, xD [irony]). But seriously: I wont be great like Bach or Monteverdi, thats inpossible. These two saints, as you rightly call them, are too pro for me. Its like Zenetusken from TS together with Lovehandles from TD lol.

Many people say, the TS community would be hostile and selfish or even "toxic". But its the opposite: Ts players become more and more friendly, people respect each other, are honest (shit talk, anger) and think and play for their teammates. Regarding noobs, they kick them, because its not fair to the other players, but if possible, they let them spec or even take them in their team. Now compare that to TD or RA: The RA community is noobhostile, noone even talks, players are quiet, dont share anything with another and are selfish - except Cro Pro Bro of course... :D. And so many said the TD community would be better - but its even worse: They all run away from you, if you are good, hate you, dont respect you, even if you win 70 out of 75 games, they wont honor that and respect you, but downgrade you and make false explanations up to save their ego (Smt). They will pretend to be your friend and call your names, when they think you arent there (Speedy, Smt). You cant even play FFA anymore, because they brake any rule possible, team up against you all the time. And in 1vs1, if they lose, they cry, but if they win, they wont even consider real unbalance or unfairness of a map, even if you say it in the game. Then they dont care for their teammates in TD. Just do, what you like. 1 year ago it was much better, when Chem managed to make fun games for all with big crowds; but thats gone now too. Thats the reason, why TS is for the moment much more fun than TD (or RA). Just smooth games with people, who are ok, where you can lose a game without getting called names and win without getting punished for it.

Lol? How many times did i force opponents to role back and give me time by sending (fake) apcs? Tech steps: 0, ease of use/cost effectiveness: Highest. = Best unit, atleast highest Tier :P. No, but its funny you always presume others are dumb. Fact is: I meant the "real" guard tower, not the little one. And an obelisk is much better than these towers. So obelisk should be higher wiithin your system, because of higher cost effectiveness. Yeah, i can understand that. We all have a certain taste and love for some units...

This question is very off-topic, but we are in the general discussion forum, so thats why it is very on-topic lol. I love classical music. So many like Mozart, Beethoven, Tschaikowsky, and all this romantic crap. But i cant get that. If you think of a "music battle in heaven" between Bach and Monteverdi on the one side and Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Brahms and all these guys on the other side, Monteverdi and Bach would educate these noobs even in a 2vs6. What do you think? Who would win that battle? And why do people like all these guys after Haydn despite they being weak (with boring, nonsense music) compared to these two great maestros (Monteverdi and Bach), who made extraordinaraly perfect music, music from heaven i should say, and why do so many people run away from Bach and dont know about Monteverdi at all? Feel free to express yourself

As always, great content from you, Kike

1 refing is allowed, if your opponent is angry, i can only say: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGaWzr3GL9s

Lol. By your definition of "accessibility", they have to be on tier 1. They are easy to build, great, icecold, hungry. Guard tower and obelisk both need only tech center, but obelisk is much more effective. Why GT at 1, Obelisk at 2? So true! They should fix these bugs. Within your definition, i would suggest him to be your tier 3 unit, because of his costs and build time. The question of this thread really is, what unit is the most important, what the least important, and how you compare them. The most important units are the best units. So its about, what unit is best. But what makes a unit the best? Certainly, its efficiency to win the game. But games can be different, opponents can be different. So its about, what unit has the higgest efficiency for the whole ammount of games. If you have Phd, Chem, Pence, StarCraft, Smt or some extremely rarely seen players (:P), apache rushes will always have a great % of propability to win the game. Engineer rushs depend on a) your ability to micro b) the ability of the opponent to defend them c) bugs (engineer too dumb to go in, after 5 (!!!) orders, apc stops, moved like drunken idiot, freeze bug, and of course: the good old lag defense - ask Chem... :P). So for lets say White engineers wouldnt be tier 1 category, for Cn2 and Pence they should be tier 1. The same with any other units: Its relative, but we can all agree on some unspecific basic common ground: Bikes and Buggies wont be crap units and Chem Warriors wont be tier 1.

Jokes can be at someone else's expense, too, so thats an unlocigal statement.

Nice channel :). Didnt see it, now i watched some videos, and its quiet fun. But more mod maps please, Terrace sucks :P.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeBFsAajU_g&list=PLDyGE1hFrmtuDI-Oti9JCLzdThLzhzKx0&index=128&t=0s Here is something great from Huni, so you can sleep better

;). Many players are masters of using big words against Pence, but if they really face the Butcher in game, their tone changes dramatically ;P.

In life, anything is a mystery ;). No, thats the team game, ffa and 1vs1 tier list, but only for high practice gaming, not for, lets say, 2 games a week gaming. But sweet, that you cant be more specific.

Heres my tier list: First of all, no unit is without any use. I am starting with D class units: Stealth tanks can be great to secure a draw, when you get all production buildings of your opponent(s) and ensure, he has not enough units to control map. Despite that, stealth tanks can be good to get revenge of enemies on ffa maps by harv harrassing like crazy; you can do that of course in regular game as well. Bikes will be cheaper and more efficient, as long as your opponent has no defense. With defense, stealths are better. Then you can use them to sneak in poorly defended bases and destroy mcvs. And lastly, they are ok in combats as well, as long, as other units are around. But be aware of technicians xD! Tech time, high costs and weakness on open combat compared to bikes and tanks make them a rarely used unit. There was once a stealth tank troll with the name Picachu. AAs are even weak against helis/orcas/not better than bikes. GDI could need them tho, if you have no access to mammuths yet. With 2 or 3 of them they are ok against aircraft. But they can be superb to help out tanks against low armoured Nod units and against inf. Cat likes them. Orcas can be good on tib maps to get ahead over opponents by destroying tanks or harassing harvs. But most of the time, they are weak against pros (rokets/bikes/sams). Good for orca rush tho. MashPotato, White and Ferret love them. Minigunners are cannon fodder. They can be ok to help out in a buggie/bike fight tho. Weak against flammers and naders. But they have one major adventage over them: They dont explode and are therefore more mass fight compatible. Lovehandles loves to build them seperatly. C-Units: Chem warriors are extremely underestimated imo in tib maps. They can stop bikes and stealths from harv harrassing and fight on any tib ground. Really helpful to get more flexible more control of the map and to destroy low armoured vehicles. Explode tho and need high tech. Commandos are great for sneak attacks against bases and more importantly against Temples and Ion Cannons. Good to get some refs taken down, annoy your opponent, kill gdi inf and troll. Groefaz is a Commando-Priest. Chinooks are good to ransport commandos and engineers, but poorly armoured and easy food for rokets/sams/mammuths/AAs. Under wise control very helpful (Groefaz). Roket soldiers are very good, if you need defense against an incoming big tank army, if you control them wisely. Also good to get air control over your base. I put them only in class C, because they are weak at the start of the game. VERY UNDERESTIMATED UNIT. Phd is a master of them. B-Units: Buggies are just extremely cheap and fast to be built. Great for the start. Lovehandles, Chem and Smt like to spam them, but Lovehandles even in later game. Humvees: More expensive than buggies and because of the weak armoured gdi warfac, after all weaker. Important against engi rushs tho. Lovehandles spams them, Phd uses them frequently. Light tanks: Weaker than GDI tanks, but needed to fight against GDI armies. Good against Nod in later game, while immobile. Weak against inf. Chem loves to spam them later in game. Mammuth tanks: Important for late game, to fight against Orcas, but most importantly, to get the crap out of anything. Self healing, strong power. But slow and cost intensive. Not good for earlier and middle game. Justme, MashPotato and Groefaz like them. Artillery: Great for fights at start against buggies, bikes, humvees and inf. Very underestimated. BUT: Slow, so either you have a good def or you should be careful with attacking with them! Flamers: Extremly good for anti-inf, anti-scout and base defense, but weaker than naders. Good to get your base defended against a big buggie/bike-army. Pence and Smt use them frequently for that purpose. Naders: Cheap and good against low class vehicles, but can explode, so you need to micro them well. Essential to survive at start as GDI. Phd and Ferret love them. SSM: Good to get control in later game over Nod and forcing opponent to either build them as well or build tanks. Perfect to secure a strong position or to get better def, as well as attacking obelisks and guard towers. Weakly defended tho. Justme keeps spamming them. B-Units: Bikes are a just extremely fast, powerful and can harass so perfectly; and they are good for Anti-Aircraft. They are good against GDI, as well, if you use them carefully. Weak against inf. Has its downsides compared to light tanks. But the reason, why Nod is just so powerful at start. Speedy and Smt are bike spammers. Flame tanks: Very, very good against buggies, bikes, humvees, inf, buildings. Ok, the range is not that high. But they are extremely efficient to force opponents to get tanks and lose inf. Also good for getting out harvs quickly. Pence loves them... "Medium tank": Just great. But weak at start of the game, unless you use a tank rush. If GDI survives the early period of the game, tanks make them superior. Just strong and better than any Nod vehicle. But be careful: They are weak against rokets, so if Nod kills GDI inf, tanks can get pretty weak. Obelisks are a prob too; thats why in later game, Mammuths are the better choice. Weaver and White are special fans of them, so was Bluysy. S-Units: Engineers: These poor, hungry men are hated by so many players, i wonder, why... Just great for an early rush to get out your opponent or later to "eat" refs to put his eco down or to get any building and crawl into his own base. But many players dont know how to use them well, nor do they know, how to defend them. Pence and Cn2 are Bachelors and Masters of Engineering... APC: Very fast and well armoured, perfect to send a present to your opponent's base... Also good for crushing tons of inf. Apaches: 4 Apaches = Death. Thats § 4 of the TD rule book. An apache rush is undefendable, if your opponent isnt scouted and you dont expect him to that. Even in later game, apaches can be great to get down mcvs and pps, but as long as your opponent has pps left (and can defend them), it may be better to just spam ground units. 6000 $ or 4 apaches are a hell of an expensive investment, so amke sure, you have enough units and buildings to defend your base. Chem creeps his opponents out with his heli love. And then the E (Elite) Unit: BEST UNIT BY FAR IS THE TECHNICIAN! So powerful, wow, and you just need to sell a silo. So thats my list :).

I dont see a toy right there, i see an absolutely serious looking mcv, only in high graphics. A "toy" would look like in RA3, but thats obviously not the case. And i dont care much for that stuff, i just want that they stick to: a) 1 Engineer + apc as we know it in TD b) 4 Helis as we know it in TD c) Units are the same as in TD - NO changes, but maybe some additional units (wolverine and cyborgs?) d) !!! CHANGE HARVS TO HIGH IQ HARVS WITH HIGH REACTION TIME !!! e) Make the "t" buttom available, just like in TS, to select any unit of the seleted unit's group in range of the selected unit f) Make sure we can select an higher amount of units/buildings to be built. g) An easy map creator, to make high tib maps h) Let the game be as it was! No C&C 4 failure intended please!

GDI Orca: Giants: 1) Use frequency: 2/10 Very rarely used. 2) Efficiency: 3/10 If your opponent has no engineers and doesnt know whats comming, it can be harmful. But most of the time, atleast an engi survives. But if you can get Warfac and/or Mcv, it will give your team an adventage anyway. Other than for a rush at start, its worthless. The Bomber is just much better. GSO: Use frequence: 6/10 Gets used time and time again. Ender and DGT like it. Efficiency: 7/10 In early steps of GSO, noone will suspect an Orca rush. Anti Aircraft and engies wont be there most of the time. So its much more efficient here. Question is: Is it cost effective compared to Diss rushes or Titan assaults? It leaves you pretty defenseless. Terr: Use frequency 0,5/10 Efficiency: 1/10 Too cost ineffective and weak compared to bombers, wont be used in 99 % of pro games because of that. FF: Use frequency: 3/10 Sometimes used. Efficiency: 5/10 If your opponent has no engies and AA, you are far far away and your defense is ok/you are not scouted, an orca attack can be pretty good. But they need so much reload time, that you need time to use them again. Bomber: Giants: Use frequency: 9/10 Gdi player = Bomber Efficiency: 7/10 Perfect for defense, can wipe out devils, even devil masses, inf and cyborg mass attacks, but can stop C&C from getting a building only with more bombers. Pretty weak for offense tho, can bomb the gate free for apc scout assaults or titan assaults, but for direct base attack, Nod will have too much Sams; compared to Banshees, they are not good enough for attacks. GSO: Use frequency: 7/10 Used in later game. Efficiency: 9/10 Very effective to take control over the main front by bombing the shit out of Titans, Tanks, Inf, Art, Lasers and Towers. The more sams, the less effective they are; but they have a good chance to get a Mcv, because there are not that much sams in the middle game. But very cost intensive. Terrace: Use frequency: 10/10 Efficiency: Very effective: They can take control over the battlefield by destroying or weakening Titans, by destroying Mammuth MK or Carryall, Sams, Refs, Emps, Mcv and so on. If your opponent has emp: You just need Bombers. If your opponent has too much towers: You just need Bombers. If your opponent sends disses: You just need (many) bombers. If you fail in a titan attack: Build bombers and crush the incoming Titan asault! Ah: And if your opponent has too much bombers: Destroy his helipads. Bombers are extremely important, as you can see, but only, in middle or late game: Because in the time of a fast diss rush, you wont have 2 or 3 bombers to defend. Thats one of many reasons why, all of that said, they are not any more important than Titans, Mammuths or Disses. It depends on the playerstyle. Rob loves bombers, but any Terrace Pro likes them, i guess. Ah: And Bombers are very important for fast techers to get an inf rush under control. FF: Like Terrace Vulcan Cannon: Giants: 1) 0,5/10 2) 0,5/10 Weak. GSO: 1) 7/10 2) 8/10 Very good for defending a base against inf rushes and attacks! Other than: Forget it. Terr: 1) 1/10 2) 2/10 Only good for getting back in the game, after you failed in an inf fight. FF: Like Terr. YOu will need extra time to build the tower and the cannon. RPG Cannon: Giants: 1) 9/10 2) 9/10 Very good defense against C&Cs and especially Devils, because they can hit 2 or 3 at the same time, weak against disses, when they land right to them. Weak against massive inf attacks. Any Gdi player, who is decent, will have Rgs to defend his base. GSO: 1) 8/10 2) 8/10 Good to defend against titans, better than lasers for that purpose, because they can defend the tiberium zone with their range as well. But a good mix of tits and inf, and rpgs will shot inf and become a waste. So it depends on the situation. Good for base creep. Terr: 9/10 7/10 Good for titan defense, but has his weaknesses against a diss rush, when they land the disses right next to the tower. They will shot probably inf, if you send an mix of inf and tits. Black/Titanjoe loves Rpgs. FF: Like Terr. You need to build the tower and then the cannon. Nod Harpyies: Giants: 1) 3/10 Most of the time, noone uses them. But if you hear the name "Fantazea", you have to hear one name as well: "Harpye" xD. He married them a long time ago. 2) 4/10 They are the quickest scout, even faster and - with good control - more effective to scout ONE opponent than buggies. They can be ok for Defense against C&C and some devils, but you will lose atleast one building, if your opponent is good. But it works for Fantazea, dont ask me how. Weak for an attack, only with sheer masses you can get some buildings. GSO: 1) 2/10 2) 4/10 Good for killing naders and holding gdi back in an inf fight: But they cost 1000 $, which will ultimately missing for your inf. It is cost effective for that purpose most of the time, because it forces GDI to attack and go straight to your base defense/harvs. Ok for sniping some arts at start, as well. Weak for anything other than that; exception: Fantazea xD. Terrace: 1) 1/10 2) 2/10 Only purpose: Getting naders or helipads. FF: 1) 2/10 2) 3/10 Again: Like GSO, but not that efficient. Banshees: G: 1) 10/10 Giants = Banshees 2) 10/10 Banshees decide the winning team in many games. Its important to micro them well. Extremely good for getting big buildings (Refs, Mcvs, Warfacs) or emps. Good for defending as well, if you have many helipads. If you have only a few, some opponents only attack to let you waste banshees. Important is as well to find the best path for attack, since almost any base will be surrounded by sams, but many have their weak spots with few sams. Dont forget to check that you have enough banshees to oneshot a building, IF opponent has engies; if not, you dont have to care. And there is the nasty banshee suicide attack, which will help getting "wounded" buildings by the sam fire. GSO: 1) 5/10 2) 5/10 Too expensive and late. Cabal loves to use them on GIants, tho. The time you have them is the time your opponents have sams; can be good for getting one mcv out tho and thus be a game changer. Important for late game. Terrace: 1) 9/10 2) 6/10 If you have Nod on Terr, you need Banshees to survive. But they not near as good as bombers: Your opponent will have engies, you will need money for ground units, and so on. Weak against titans, because you can hardly seperate your banshee forces to get more titans; their shoot is not that strong for titans as well. Worthless against inf. Good for harv or Mammuth attacks. FF: 1) 9/10 2) 8/10 Good to attack, if you are on a save spot. Not that good for defense against titan assaults, but if you have enough helipads and time, they are ok even for that. Lasers: G: 1) 4/10 Used for anti scout defense. But most players dont trust them and instead use rokets, arts, tanks and so on. Stylewarz and Momo are a big fans of them, tho. 2) 6/10 Lasers can be annoying for anybody and anything. But they wont stop C&Cs and are easily put down by them. Devils on the other hand wont attack them, but lasers wont stop them from getting a building, as well. Inf rushes are good to defend with lasers, but not Cyborg rushes, as long as you dont have many lasers. So after all, lasers are weak, take time from building more important stuff and get replaced by ground units. But if you build them over and over again, they can be good (Stylewarz). GSO: 1) 10/10 2) 7/10 Good to defend against inf, if you have other inf. But lasers alone are sweet cakes for Naders/Inf. You can build laser after laser tho to try to get a bad inf situation under control; harvs are more efficient, and if that dont work, lasers wont work either. Good for base sneaking. Weak for tit defense in the tib zone, because they have not the range to get tits, if they attack harvs - and if they attack refs, they could get tits, but it wont be too late. Together with Rokets, lasers can work. If you place them well, they can be good for the inner base defense against tits. After all lasers are needed for defending GDI and cost very few (300 $) money, but they are not that strong. You need ground troops, as well, then they can be good. Terrace: 1) 9/10 2) 6/10 Ok for defending any ground attack, but not that efficient. Pretty weak against tits. FF: 1) 10/10 2) 7/10 Good to defend against inf and needed to try to be competitive with GDI. No match for disses or Mammuths tho. Obelisks: G: 1) 2/10 Almost noone uses them, rarely used for defending Gdi. But if you hear the name "MikePence", you have to hear the word "Obelisk" as well. 2) 8/10 They are good for defending against Disses or C&Cs, with 2 or 3 good even against devil hords and anything else. And Energy is not a problem on Giants. Banshees wont take them out as well. GSO: 1) 1/10 2) 7/10 They take much energy. But if you have one of them in the base, you can defend diss rushes, engi attacks or C&Cs pretty easily. Good against Tits as well (3-4 tits will lose against one obelisk without even needing any help). Good for base creap and for getting control over the middle. But easy food for bombers and it makes you energy dependent. Terr: 1) 0,5/10 2) 0,5/10 Weak. Costs too much energy, is easy bomber fodder and not needed. FF: 1) 0,5/10 2) 4/10 Costs too much energy, but can work for defending Gdi rushes. Nod and GDI: Sams: Any map: 10/10 10/10 Whats to say? Anyone needs them in any game regardless which side you play. Take many shots to get a Banshee or Bomber. Cant hold their own in 1vs1 against bombers.

Pros can defend it. Chem does quiet well. And if the opponent fails, he has a high chance of losing the game, so he has the pressure. Bluysy once told me, 20 years ago many people used it. If you cant use it as good as your opponent, you are responsible for it, not your opponent. I would say: With noobs: 0,01 %, medium skilled: 4 % of time, "pros": 20 %, Chem: 35-70 % based on gameplay of his opponent...

I was first against it, but then saw myself to be a bit hypocritical. Because i am for free speech and free market, i am as well for people making their own mods. Its their right to have fun; and its the purpose of the game to have fun. So if they have more fun with these settings, they have any right to make a mod, as long as it is optional. Its like when people change a original work of Bach: Many complained that that would be even heresy. But any thing X is thinkable and therefore IS without a thinker thinking it; a Bach on another Earth may have made another Passion with exactly the notes we are complaining about here. Not that Bach made it, makes the work great, but that it gives us joy; because we dont listen to it for mathematical purposes. So: I dont get all the hate for the work some guys did to enjoy their game, even tho i may dont like these particular guys. But hate should not drive my thinking skills (even tho it does on certain games...). I was against it, because i thought it was against a certain type of player or gameplay and to harm them, and that may be true for the intention of some of these moders, but it is not able to inflict any harm whatsoever, so therefore, it is not a matter. That said, what has to be criticized is the wording ("patch"), the information to all players that there is a "patch" and that the same people, who are defending it, proposed ideas of sorting maps to categories like "competitive" or not. Because it isnt a patch. A patch would be finally giving harvs atleast the iq of flies, stop commandos move through mcvs without destroying them, stupid unit movements or apcs from freezing, when being shot. But instead, it forbids helis and engineers, pumps GDI up and makes Nod weak. Thats not a fix of objective mistakes or bugs of a game, it is just a subjective change to have more fun. So dont call it patch, call it Mod. Secondly, dont inform players that there is a mod, but just let them try it for themselves, because otherwise it looks like anyone, who doesnt use it, uses a worse version of the game. So, these are real solid points, not that people want to play a X, call it game or mod, in a certain way.

And you will be easy cake for Firestar or Momo on Giants ?

I beat the "pros" on giants so often, that the "pros" RUN :D. So dont go on with "who plays Terr is better", because it isnt true. Let corpsmaker play against Momo on Giants 6 games, he will lose BADLY. And Giants has no "limitations", it makes the game fair by weakining Gdi. And we dont have to "listen to the pros". We have to have fun, thats all.

GDI 1) Disruptor: Giants: A) Use frequency: 9/10 As long as the Gdi player isnt using a more defensive approach (like Ender or Francesco do), you will always see a diss rush. B) Efficiency: 10/10 Nothing makes Nod players more uncomfortable than the possibility of a diss rush. The faster, the better. You can easily destroy 2 refs or mcv + warfac with them and almost ending the game for the opponent. But you have to scout the opponents base first: And sams and rokets can be a problem for that. If only one player is scouted, others will send help. Then there are emps, but most of the time, they are built too late for a quick first diss rush. The next problem is the defense: If you attack the front guys, they will have many roket men, some tanks or art - but good players like Firestar still get 2 major buildings with the diss attack. Sams can be a problem too. Ah: And lasers. GSO: A) Use frequency: 7/10 Used in late game or as a quick rush, if you survive the inf battle. B) Efficiency: 10/10 In GSO, the "back door" (refs) and the whole base are most of the time weakly defended, sams are missing and the army is in the front. So one diss can decide ca game. But Emps, Lasers and C&Cs can be annoying. Terr: A) 10/10 Terr = Dises B) 10/10 A good dis rush decides the game. In the whole game (from early to late game), the diss micro is essential. Destroying opponents refs, mcv or warfacs, while defending against his diss attack at the same time - thats, what Terr players love; and thats the reason, why Nod is weak against Gdi on Terr. FF: A) 10/10 Like Terr B) 10/10 Like Terr 2) Mammuth MK: Giants: A) 1/10 Almost never used. B) 3/10 Most of the time, a Mammuth rush is weak because of the opponents sheer force of roket men. Kossuth is a master of a weird 1 diss and 1 mammuth extreme rush tho. In later game, Mammuths are worthless. GSO: A) 2/10 Very rarely used. B) 8/10 Depending on the situation, Mammuths can be even worse for a Nod base than a diss rush. Because of the lack of defense, they can easily destroy 2 refs together; they are more flexible, too: You can destroy harvs, force fire blue tib and use them for a front assault or for defense. Terr: A) 8/10 Used many times. Beloved by many players, like MammyMk, Zenetusken, TopRush, Tigerr, and so on. B) 9/10 Mammuths are the perfect choice to reduce the amount of harvs your opponent has - because of the limited access to tib, the eco is much more important in Terr than on Mod maps, so losing harvs is much more harming for the opponent. They can attack refs or main base as well or pick 1 or 2 titans off guard and kill them. The possibility to repair them makes them even more dangerous. Can be outempted, outbombered or outtitanted tho. FF: A) 8/10 Like Terr. B) 9/10 Like Terr Nod: Devils: Giants: A) Use frequency: 10/10 Used in every game. B) Efficiency: 7/10 A fast devil rush (7 or 8 devils) can crush your opponent - Attila and DGT love these kind of attacks. An Emp tho, and the fun is over. Some smart players send an emp distracting vanguard, before the main attack. If you have not scouted the players in the back, you risk getting empted by them. Then there is the possibility of an engineer on good position and a defending C/C, which will make puree out of your devils. Tanks wont prevent your devils from getting a mayor building, but then, say goodbye to your devils. Same with arts, but you can try to outmaneuver the tanks atleast. A big roket army can weaken your attack by much too; many players make the mistake of not attacking the big pile of rokets first. Because many players rely only on roket men on the early stages of the game (and 2 arts), burning them all makes your opponent defenseless. So rightly used, Devils can be wonderful against them. Then there are some players building a laser base (Stylewarz...) - this can be very annoying for devils too, but it wont prevent you from getting a major building, as long, as there are not 3 lasers shooting together with inf and art. And there are some players using Obelisk as defense (Pence...) - 1 Obelisk is not a problem (for a big devil army; for 1-4, it is tho), but 2 combined with some tanks or inf, and devils are useless or cost ineffective (in the rage of the Obelisks). Banshee force firing in later game (like Ender does) can hurt devils as well. Harpye force firing is not as effective as that, but it can certainly be annoying, too (i say one name: Fantazea ). Ah: And allways be cautious, that your devils in base dont get chem nuked ;). GSO: A) 4/10 B) 4/10 Can be good against inf, but they cost too much and need too much time for attacking your opponents base. Because of the amount of arts and emps, they are just cannon fodder. But if your opponents dont have arts/emps and defending tits/hoovers, devils can be useful for attack. Other than that, they can help a fast teching player for handling the early inf battle. Terr: A) 3/10 Only used for inf attack. B) 3/10 Too much time and costs needed for a weak unit, which gets blown away easily by rpgs, titans, bombers, ghosts, hoovers, naders, and so on. Only good for inf killing, but a good inf micro, and devils are not that good here as well. FF: A) 6/10 Because of the length of the map, they are used much more often than in Terr. B) 6/10 On the right circumstances, they can be great to take hot spot player out or to attack a rushing player in the back spots. But GDI needs only 1 or 2 bombers force guarding on the right place, 1 or 2 rpgs or some tits, and you will maybe get a building or 2, but thats it. So it is a risk. Good for burning inf. Stealth Tanks: Giants: A) Use frequency: 0,5/10 B) Efficiency: 0,5/10 Because gate is guarded by inf, stealth tanks wont even get to the opponent. If it is not (in later game), your opponents have sensors and if not, the base is still packed with inf, art or tits. The only reasonable use is maybe to get poorly defended Waste Facs or Mcvs or to find a hidden base, if gate is open and your are not in the rage of sensors. But they are a wonderful troll unit. Noone tested them as defending unit as of now, because it costs so much and takes so much time and is so weakly armoured - mabye they can be ok for a defending role in later game? GSO: A) 0,5/10 B) 2/10 Most of the time no use, because of the sheer amount of art. If your opponents dont have art, you can annoy harvs with them perfectly - and distract. Ref attackign or attacking a poorly defended base are ok, too. Even bombers wont change that, because of the stealthing effect. Problem is here that you have to come to the harvs/base first, that you wont have the time or money, that your opponent can simply build rpgs or lasers or put some inf in the tib/base or use emp and that other methods are much more effective. They can be ok for tit defending too, if you have other units/buldings for defence as well. Maybe they are underused in GSO? Terr: A) 1/10 I saw Stealcore using them one time. B) 4/10 He used them fairly well and almost won because of them. But they need too much time and money, are slow, are weak against tits without other units and very weak against inf, but they can be great for harv or ref harass and scouting. Even guard bomber defense can be an idea. FF: A) 2/10 Sometimes, some guys use them. B) 5/10 They can be great for harv or Second base harassing or for destroying some tits, while they move for their assault. Even a direct sneak attack against the base can work against weakly defended back spot players. It depends on the situation, but they are still cost and time intensive and weakly armoured.

Terrace and FF can be fun, absolutely. Its about players thinking they are better people, if they play Terr instead of Giants; and thats rediculous. I saw many Terr players fail in Giants/GSO. Even the best of the best, like TopRush or Zenetusken, lost on Giants with Diss rush. I find Giants/GSO much more fun than Terrace right now and i dont think they are watered-down. If you are in a GSO-mood, you can play hours with having fun :D. I dont get this whole discussion, frankly. If you have fun, play it - whether its Terr, FF, Giants, GSO, RA1, TD or even Dune ;). Lets just focus on the topic: Low and middle class vehicles. Do you have some other thoughts about them? Other ratings? Other tactics? Then share

1) Medics with Ghost on GIants or in GSO is by far more effective than Medics with Fodder in early game. 2) Reasonably skill-leveled games: Well, games with Hitman, who is elite (and by far better than you xD), included cyborgs to scout. Cyborgs work even with skill-leveled players, thats why guys like ViscOwner, NodBR or Cabal use them so often. Later in game, they can scout via sub. And you can build a big cyborg army, destroy emp via banshees and then completely elimante the opponents base (as Zoom3000 loves it to do). 3) Wolverines are underestimated in GSO. It can be better to build one Wolverine first than one Titan to overrun the opponents inf and, if he has one tit, the titan. 4) If guys micro well, titans cant squish inf well. MammyMk one time needed 2 minutes to squish 3 soldiers with tits, and Mammy rekt many pros ;). 5) We are talking here about low and middle class vehicles, not defrense structure like Obelisks and not high tech vehicles like Stealth tanks ;). 6) JJ rush is 99% of time shit. Even against noobs. But a good troll attack :D. 7) I didnt say, Red Alert requires more micro than TS. I said the opposite: Its micro is simple (tank rushing, q-moving), its macro can be hard. Ts is by far more micro intense, no discussion about that. 8 ) Wow, so much ANGER! I take these personal attacks from you just with a smile . Because, sadly, i won against you in some FF and giants games; but when you win 2 or 3 games on duelling islands with using bugs (emp bug on bridge or inf luck) and overpowered gdi as a guy, who plays this game for ever, you call me names. That shows how "humble" you are. 9) Few glitches? Yeah, like when the sub gets emped, it gets out of the map and vanishes (giants)... hilarious coming from the guy that seriously suggested a way to balance NOD would be making their power plants cheaper. yikes.  I never said make the power plants cheaper, i said, give them more energy. Well thats the prob: Guys like Zen, the real elite, all use GDI, because they quiet frankly admit, that Nod is shit against GDI on open maps like Terrace. Its even common sense. Its a reason, why TD and RA players didnt like the game. 10) You ignored the fact, that calling giants or GSO bad is a sin to C&C. RA1 had the same amount of ore/tib. TD had the same amount of tib on certain maps. GIants and GSO are much more familiar to RA. And in TD, there are low money maps (which are quiet similar to Terrace) and big money maps. So its just tradition. If you call Giants or GSO players skillless, you call all TD and RA1 players skillless, too.