"Useless" units

[Messiah]

@IntoTheRain, I would add AA capability to the bike (as in C&C) instead to the buggy. The buggy needs a serious increase of its fire rate, maybe Damage and ROF both 20 for the RaiderCannon (From 40 / 55). Same with the wolverine's weapon.

JumpJet infantry needs increased speed and climb rate and a slight boost of firepower to make it comparable to the RA2 counterpart.

The hijacker unit seems to be designed by the programmers as a unit which only purpose it is to counter the mammoth MKII in late-game, due to its high price and late availability. Compared to that, the RA2 Yuri costs 800 only and is already availabe with a radar.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Messiah

[IntoTheRain]

I just want to see more concrete numbers and reasoning when discussing updates.

When people say things like 'buff its damage 10% to make it useful' that doesn't tell you anything about what interactions are affected or if its even possible with the numbers used.

@Messiah I agree, the buggy might need more buffs.  Not sure I would want the Bike to take over the role of AA unit though.  The bike should actually be a very dangerous unit with whats proposed, and unlike GDI which only has the Wolverine, Nod has a ton of anti infantry options in the WF that the Buggy would have to compete with.  It would be very hard for the Buggy to carve out a niche there without buffing it to the point it crowds something else out.  

I personally prefer to push it in its current direction, as a scout, anti air unit, and unit thats good at engaging and eliminating small packs of scouting troops.  This gives it a clear role that Nods other anti infantry units can't fill, and the anti air aspect will help keep it relevant into the mid/late game.  But yes, it could probably use more in the way of buffs.  Pushing its damage all the way up to 60-65 or so, for example, would allow it to 2 shot light infantry.  Thats nearly a 50% buff to its firepower though, and as bad as the buggy is, it probably would need a nerf to compensate for that big an increase. A RoF buff is also possible, but the higher burst damage is usually preferable against aircraft.

[X3M]

@IntoTheRain

Make your mod! I would try it out.
I totally agree on the hoover MRLS. Somehow these MRLS are always relatively weaker than their intended purpose. Or they are entering the battlefield a bit too late.
If only they could be as their cutscene. I guess that one would have worked in C&C3.

[IntoTheRain]

@X3M

I'm not a good candidate to do a mod.  Any free time I have for games at this point tends to go to Starcraft, with small spurts into various CnC games whenever I get bored of that.  I'm probably not going to stick around long enough to make anything worthwhile. (and definitely not long enough to support it)

I'd also end up making so many changes that, while the game would have all the same units, it wouldn't really be TibSun as people know it anymore.  I can think of at least 10 far more major changes that I would probably implement if I was going to mod it.  The final result would probably look similar to the demo OpenRA version on youtube, but thats a tough sell to a community thats been playing the same basic game for 20 years.

That being said, I do think the game could use a balance patch to open the game up some more, but I find most of the discussion about it very lazy.  I'm trying to get people to think more about concrete numbers and reworking of unit designs to make them more viable.  The game is definitely playable in its current state, but most of the gameplay tends to revolve around high powered building killers through either CC/Disrupters or Air Power.  Actual army combat takes a backseat, and eco harass is nearly nonexistent.  The game would benefit from opening up both. 

[Messiah]

@IntoTheRainThe RaiderCannon has a low range and is just too weak against armoured stuff. It will be good against JumpJets, but Orcas and Bombers are better targets for armor-breaking warheads imho.

The Devil's Tongue is a weapon which requires a tech center and the cyborg is quite slow, so the Buggy is the perfect weapon in early game to encounter infantry attacks or to protect Bike raids. For last purpose speed of both units could be set to 11 (Buggy is 10, Bike 12)

You also mention the Arty as anti-infantry weapon. I wont't agree with that, since FS the projectile doesn't straight hit the target any more. So it has lost a lot of its defensive value.

What do you think of changing the Hovercraft's warhead from AP to HE, because GDI already has a strong anti-armor unit with the Titan?

[IntoTheRain]

@Messiah

Whoops, my bad on the Devil's Tongue.  I was originally going to propose it get its tech requirements knocked down to a Radar Dome but I dropped it from my suggested changelist.  I think its a good change, but I tech requirement changes are a harder sell.

Anyway for the Buggy.  I don't mind it being used to small groups of infantry, I just think Nod has lots of anti infantry units that all need to fit and I don't want it to avoid feeling like a Nod Wolverine, especially with Cyborgs also in the faction.

You are right though that the gun damage is probably inadequate for AA work.  There was never a need to make an Air armor type when the game was released since all of the AA damage was rocket based.  This could be fixed by simply creating an air armor type which is identical to existing light armor except against Buggy gun damage.  Currently, light units take 40% damage from Buggy weapons, increasing this to 75% would bring it in line with Rocket damage from other sources.

For comparison:
- SAM Sites 6 shot Orcas and 7 shot Harpies.
- Rocket Troopers 10 shot Orcas and 13 shot Harpies

- At 45 gun damage with a 0.75 scalar, a Buggy would kill a Orca in 6 shots and a Harpy in 7.  However, its far lower rate of fire would still give it far higher time to kill than a SAM.  That might actually be a little better than it needs to be, and the correct amount might be something closer to 8 shots for an Orca and 9-10 for a Harpy given its price.

As far as the range, that was part of the reason I originally pushed the unit to 6 range.  Additionally, I was hoping to move the unit more toward a kiting role, letting it shoot and scoot.  Another possibility is to let it Q move. With its phenomenal speed, Buggies could actually chase after many of the aircraft and hunt them down, a capability that doesn't really exist in the current game.  It would also improve its infantry hunting ability while keeping it separate from the Wolverine.

With that in mind, here are my revised changes for the Buggy:

Raider Buggy:
* Q Move enabled for the Buggy
* Buggy weapon can now shoot air
* Damage increased from 40 to 45
* Buggy Range increased from 4 to 6
* Scalar vs aircraft changed from .40 to .75

Alright so lets walk through these changes.  Q Move makes the unit a good infantry hunter while keeping its playstyle distinct from the Wolverine.  It also makes it better at chasing down enemy aircraft, a capability that may be necessary against the improved light air, and is a dangerous addition against heavy air.  The range increase makes the unit more practical against aircraft and improves the units effectiveness at kiting Infantry.  The damage and scalar increases allow the unit to hit some important breakpoints for shots to kill, and while impressive on paper, the units low ROF limits how fast the Buggy can swat opposing air out of the sky.

The above changes would probably mean I would open with a Buggy in most games.  Q move is really strong when scouting with a Buggy, since I can kill enemy infantry as I run past them.  It also makes the unit very good at denying scouting, since most scout/anti scout fights are running battles.

I'd also want them to use in support of Attack Bikes.  The proposed Bike changes make them very dangerous, and the two primary counters to them are going to be either Infantry or Orcas, which Buggies should be fairly good against.

Finally, Q move means that they are almost fast enough to pace Orca Bombers and (modified) Harpies, meaning well positioned Buggies can literally chase these aircraft for a decent ways before they can escape, especially if the Buggies start in front of them.

I don't really want to push the unit any harder than that against infantry for the time being.  My proposed changelist has a lot of buffs to Nod T0 already, especially among the faster units.  I think GDI needs to maintain an edge in the brute force department to counteract their slower units.  That advantage would probably come from infantry, which Nod can counter with Tech.  I'd probably push that Devil's Tongue change to make it T1 again and see what happens.  GDI can conversely counter Nod's mobility with their tech, using the and improved Jump Trooper, MLRS, and Orca.

As for your MLRS question, I'm not sure its really in the units best interest.  I currently see the unit as GDI's answer to the Attack Bike, being fast enough to counter them a bit as well as doing enough damage to threaten Harvesters.  Moving it to HE gives it a small damage nerf vs Bikes (who use the wood armor type for some reason) and a major damage nerf vs Harvesters.  I guess I don't really see what the goal of the change is?  What I would considerthough , if the Orca pans out, is moving Bombers to HE, making them weaker vs vehicles and encourage more mixing of the aircraft.  

[Messiah]

I agree with Q move for the buggy, but it requires a turret, right? This could be easily added to Buggy aswell to the Tick tank. Last one already has artwork for this, I don't know why they didn't use it.

I forgot to mention, when changing that HoverMissile warhead, its damage should increased to 45-50 to make it effective. So it can be used for a similar role you suggest for the buggy while far more effective against wood structures and light vehicles. To compensate the nerf against harvesters, OrcaAPs heavy verses could set to 150% while keeping the unit's speed at 20.

When I played that game first time, I actually misinterpreted the Hovercraft as a successor to the MLRS from TD, which was an anti-infantry, anti-aircraft and anti-structure weapon comparable to the artillery (The MLRS actually failed because its range was not far enough to snipe Gun Turrets). The wolverine was meant to be a successor to the Jeep, but it just lacks of its speed. At least with your buffs it isn't cut into pieces that easy anymore by bikes and bazookas. GDI already has a good low-tech anti-infantry weapon with the Grenadier, I actually prefer two of them instead of one wolverine.

When you change the Subtank's armor to heavy and set its prerequisite to Radar, you either should reduce it strength to 200 or increase its price to at least 1000 or it will be to OP. Note that unit is invincible while digging through earth.

[IntoTheRain]

Yes, the buggy will need a turret added as well.

Not sure what to do with the Tick Tank.  The traditional light tank in 1 and 3 has relied on numbers, speed, and earlier pressure to keep the numbers low in order to compete with the GDI offering.  The Tick Tank is the only one thats trying to compete against the Titan straight up.  I'd like to see Nod try and answer Titans with a mix of Tick Tanks and Rockets or Rockets and Artillery, but that would be another round of changes to play with.  The transform ability makes it fairly challenging to balance as well.

The MLRS change is possible, I think it still does enough damage against Bikes to make them a good answer against them, but GDI is losing one of its only anti harv weapons if you go down that route.  Additionally, while its got the same name as the TibDawn version, it plays very differently.  Personally I feel like the Jugg is far more of a spiritual successor to the TD MLRS at this point, and the TS MLRS should just try and be its own unit.

I'm also not sure I would want to buff the Orca further without testing it a bit first.  Its hard to gauge its power level without playing with it, and its already getting a fair number of buffs.

The Devils Tongue I just don't know what to do with.  Its damage isn't particularly impressive, especially for its tech requirements, but underground is a ridiculous mechanic.  I honestly don't think it would be OP if it only required a Radar, especially with the suggested armor type change, but again at this point actual testing would need to be done to know for sure.

[Holland]

I guess this topic continued here:

https://forums.cncnet.org/topic/8422-what-would-you-do-to-make-tiberian-sun-better-balanced/

But no matter, we can resolve any balance issues by adding checkbox like □ Enable custom mod/patch

Connected with a list to choose a modded balance, like a veteran patch or other mods, anyway we discussed this already in that topic. It would pretty much be the finishing touch to the client in my opinion

[X3M]

Well. I don't mind a bit of derailing off topic. It is still on topic too.

Safe to say that TS has the most issue with this "useless" problem?

Some other RTS games have some neat solutions. Units that show no use. Or a lack of. They can get an unique double function.

While infantry are used for scouting. Or even are able to take a soft structure down with them (except in TS). In for example AoW3 they can throw grenades that reduce accuracy of opponents. The heavier the opponent. The higher the inaccuracy effect is.

It is that little trick. An effect that grows stronger while the unit itself is weaker in comparison. This trick makes an unit usefull in every tier. Not just the first scouting tier.

C&C games (that I have played) don't have this solution. But future games might benefit from this.

[X3M]

The light infantry are the ones that I think about. Scouting only. After that. It is titans all over the place with a mammoth3 on a carryallstick and bombers. Have you ever seen light infantry take down a cy? It takes ages. Any other game shows acceptable speed regarding lightest infantry taking out the most important structure.

Sure they are usefull against soft targets like mrls and bikes etc. But those are almost never around either. I guess they can take a shot at power plants or rocket troops if those are around.

[total_annihilationx666]

I use Hover MLRS (~4) [Multiple Launch Rocket System] to defend the harvesters from HARPEEs' and to guard tiberium fields (against AI of course.) Also at one point I used Rocket Soldiers, they're effective as fodder —don't know why I stopped. I'd say the Attack Bike is useless.

Edited November 6, 2018 by total_annihilation00
Missed a point\ addendum

[ore_truck]

2 hours ago, X3M said:

The light infantry are the ones that I think about. Scouting only. After that. It is titans all over the place with a mammoth3 on a carryallstick and bombers. Have you ever seen light infantry take down a cy? It takes ages. Any other game shows acceptable speed regarding lightest infantry taking out the most important structure.

Sure they are usefull against soft targets like mrls and bikes etc. But those are almost never around either. I guess they can take a shot at power plants or rocket troops if those are around.

I used to play Tiberian Sun online but stopped some time ago. I remember how the Light Infantry are useful. Early in the games, we always have intense infantry warfare and could cause a lot of damage if the opponent doesn't defend against them well. They also make good cannon fodders and meatshields, like this video, people still used infantry while sending Mammoth Mk 2s!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duQ3SrEpMN8

[X3M]

10 hours ago, ore_truck said:

I used to play Tiberian Sun online but stopped some time ago. I remember how the Light Infantry are useful. Early in the games, we always have intense infantry warfare and could cause a lot of damage if the opponent doesn't defend against them well. They also make good cannon fodders and meatshields, like this video, people still used infantry while sending Mammoth Mk 2s!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duQ3SrEpMN8

That is a constructive video. Here I have seen some rare cases of cannon fodder indeed. It saves titans if the infantry can add some chaos to it. I also spotted some infantry trying to take out a power plant. I wonder what happens if someone starts aiming for power plants only with those MK2's while ignoring all other structures.

It is as how I described it. But I don't see "strong" light infantry in the mid game. What precise moment in the video shows "strong" light infantry that I missed? Except for the infantry vs infantry, which is the scouting force.

[IntoTheRain]

The problem with Riflemen in every CnC game is that they tend to be very narrow.  They are only strong against infantry, with no other utility to speak of unless the game lets Rifle damage to a high percentage to structures.  (RA2 and RA3)  Furthermore, Rifles usually aren't even the best anti infantry unit in each faction, further reducing their usefulness down to mere scouts.  RA3 is the only game where Rifles are the strongest anti-infantry unit, and it really changes the way the game plays.

In TibSun, Rifles fall off pretty quick after the initial rush, and the main reason you see them at all after the first 2 minutes is from building selling.  Its really rare to see someone continue building them as the game goes on. (rightfully so, tech is king in TibSun)

That being said, I don't see how you make them more useful after the early game without dramatically altering the unit.

I would be interested in looking at the early interactions however.  Rifle fights are basically tickle fights, requiring 16 shots to kill each other even before they go prone.

Edited October 28, 2018 by IntoTheRain

[X3M]

41 minutes ago, IntoTheRain said:

The problem with Riflemen in every CnC game is that they tend to be very narrow.  They are only strong against infantry, with no other utility to speak of unless the game lets Rifle damage to a high percentage to structures.  (RA2 and RA3)  Furthermore, Rifles usually aren't even the best anti infantry unit in each faction, further reducing their usefulness down to mere scouts.  RA3 is the only game where Rifles are the strongest anti-infantry unit, and it really changes the way the game plays.

In TibSun, Rifles fall off pretty quick after the initial rush, and the main reason you see them at all after the first 2 minutes is from building selling.  Its really rare to see someone continue building them as the game goes on. (rightfully so, tech is king in TibSun)

That being said, I don't see how you make them more useful after the early game without dramatically altering the unit.

I would be interested in looking at the early interactions however.  Rifle fights are basically tickle fights, requiring 16 shots to kill each other even before they go prone.

Exactly. With those from C&C3 the least narrow. Well, the GDI variant at least.

There are plenty of other games where the light infantry function throughout all tiers. So, where did EA-games and a bit of Westwood, go wrong? Realism?

[IntoTheRain]

On paper both infantry and vehicles have already been able to do everything since RA1.  In practice Infantry have lagged far behind vehicles for the majority of the CnC franchise.

The real question has always been whats the point of having infantry if Warfactory units can do everything after the 2 minute mark?

[X3M]

Juggernaut syndrome: Bigger is better. Plus this rule that the big units can step on the smaller ones. They worked hard, to reduce this effect in C&C3. Where unit sizes and clumsiness also play a role.

The squishing has ruined a lot in the games. Players tend to ignore infantry, once tanks roll out. Because, squish,. squish...squish,squish,squish.

And the more expensive the infantry units are, the more effective this squishing is.

[Messiah]

Infantry are just too expensive, compared to their power. If their build costs are significant lowered, they could be an option again. 50 for the rifleman, 100 for the grenade thrower, 150 for the rocket soldier. "Cheaper infantry" could be an interesting tickbox for CnCnet actually.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Messiah

[X3M]

10 hours ago, Messiah said:

Infantry are just too expensive, compared to their power. If their build costs are significant lowered, they could be an option again. 50 for the rifleman, 100 for the grenade thrower, 150 for the rocket soldier. "Cheaper infantry" could be an interesting tickbox for CnCnet actually.

Dune 2000 and KKnD have this.
Plus KKnD has extra health on infantry due to splash and squishing reasons. Very effective against certain AI.
Dune 2000 still has almost no use for the riflemen. I only remember troopers as fodder.

[c0rpsmakr]

light infantry, rockets, and discs are priced just fine, especially for their usage and since barracks are $300.... if barracks were $2000 like a war factory then yeah, sure, let them be able to do more and not be squished possibly... nobody here that i see speaking about this has played ts to a point where they actually know what every unit can do in any given situation, and hopefully this discussion was just brought up to be ideas for someone else's modded versions of the game, because as it stands, there are so many inaccuracies in these posts to address otherwise.

[X3M]

It really depends on the games. I meant squishing in general terms. Not ts specific.

In ts, squishing is a smaller problem. When I think squish. I think red alert.

Where 700 can squish 1500 on the go. Maybe a second 1500 too.

In dune 2000, this is 700 on 450. Except for in chaotic combat.

In ts a titan can squish only one infantry at a time. Right? That is 800 on 250. That is a good number.

During the years judging by games. It has been nerved. Imho, dune 2000 gets close, but isn't there yet. Maybe because squishing here is related to the tanks speed. The movement is like the rate of fire too.

I played a board game where squishing was possible. But hard to do. Let's just say the stupid and unlucky got squished there. It was health related too. I could go into further detail. But it was a board game. But I feel that squishing there was done right. 

My main point was that more expensive infantry died just as fast against splash and squish, than rifle men. The rifle men here are often the last choice against the more expensive infantry. There are better options despite the rifle men being a valid one. Not talking about ts here. In ts, I bet that rifle men can deal with rocket troops just fine. To bad it is always GDI by almost everyone.

[IntoTheRain]

And that attitude is why its impossible to fix problems with the game.

There are very, VERY clearly weak units in TS.

[c0rpsmakr]

There are and always have been useless units/structures. You coming in here (like many others have) wanting to change the way a game has been for 20 years without knowing everything about the units youre talking about doesnt make sense. Like i said previously, if you want to mod your own ts with alterations you find fitting, cool. But dont attempt to "fix" a game that many of us have loved and played for many, many years, especially without our input. Its been done and irritated many of us and caused many older players to quit when it was done by strike team, and has even been done on cncnet.

Edited November 2, 2018 by c0rpsmakr

[X3M]

Well, can't help it that this topic once got moved to the TS forums. That wasn't my idea. It was supposed to be more of a general topic. And it was supposed to be, "hey, I find these "useless"". For others to tell them how to use them at best or simply agree.

But it shows that TS has the most divided community about the game. And those who like to twist words showed up too. It always ends up in fighting between some of you guys.

Somehow it ended up in someone being all like "you're all noobs", "you don't know how to play the game!" "don't complain!". While this topic could have answers like a simple "how about you try to use the unit like this?". I guess that is the TS community for ya.

Be like Ore_truck, show a video. That was helpful. Don't shout unsupported things, people tend to ignore you eventually.