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X3M

"Useless" units

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So, do you have an unit that you rather never use?

 

I'll start with the Hoover MRLS.

 

Less range and damage and durability then the SAM-site. Almost twice as expensive.

Not really more range then other units. It isn't that fast at all. No hit n'run possible like it was supposed to be.

Sure, it can hoover over water, but most maps that are hosted online, don't have the water advantages.

Is there any thing that it is "good" at killing?

Infantry, no.

Vehicles, not really, except the nod buggy and wolverine.

Structures, well, might as well use your more useful units any way -.-

Harvesters, ok, here I see something positive. While needing at least a medium group, they can kill harvesters and retreat back to base. The only thing that could counter this is air. Which is ironic since the hoover MRLS is supposed to own air. One bomber (1600) is able to kill 2 Hoover MRLS (1800) in one go. Sometimes even surviving the event..... Might as well use my own air for killing harvesters.

 

Am I missing a point?

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I alway found the Hover MLRS vary under ranged. Seem like WestWood knew this and added the Jug insted of fixing the MLRS in FS.

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the short time I played Tiberian Sun I mostly used the MRLS as GDI's Hit-and-run Unit.

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They were "okay". I never really used them.

 

There was one mission that they were a total disadvantage... the one where there was an electrical storm. The storm turned those MLRS into turrents.

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Yeah. Jumpjet sucks "hoover mrls" to the power of 2. As if they where designed so that the hoover mrls had 1 extra target when out of the base...

 

Limpy drone has a 1 time use. Unless they get the fog working. Then players will spam them.

 

Stealth tank also equals mrls. 1 detector, and the stealth is doomed to die.

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So jump jets [jj's] are used for scouting opponents when you can't get there with infantry. The Hover mlrs is used on forest fires and a river runs near it, Because of the water and the need to kill, wait for it, jump jets. Who woulda thunk it?

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The useless units are wolverines and nod buggys. Say what you will about MLRS, but they are still used online as hit-and-run units...not often, but they are used on certain maps, in certain conditions. Jumpjets are primarily used for scouting, once in a while you'll see some weird JJ attack that's just more annoying then actually damaging. When it comes to wolverines and nod buggys, they are useless on all levels, on any map, at all times. Wolverines are too expensive and incredibly weak. They are only good against infantry, and realistically you should just build infantry than a wolverine. Nod buggys are all messed up. The buggy is more expensive than a disc man, and 1v1 the disc man will win the battle, which just doesn't make any sense at all. Other than the occasional quick scouting, the buggy is useless. If the wolverine and buggy traits were altered, it would add a new dynamic to scouting, inf rushing, hit-and-run, and much more.

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Heck it would help towards actually making Tiberian Sun a good game. Yeah I said it.

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To be clear, I'm certain you play Red Alert and T-Dawn, Jacko. These two games are the least dynamic games in the series in my opinion. As they are the games that started the series, im not surprised. Those games have a lack of micro, and macro as well as a lack of hot keys, interface and unit control. Not to say that they have 0 dynamics, TS definitely is more dynamic. I've played most CNC games, and they only become more dynamic with the years

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They both have loads of micro, heck RA is all micro (and dull)

T-Dawn offers the best gameplay out there, its just on a much older engine that lacks the features the TS engine has.

4 hours of tib sun was entirely seen to my eyes of either using cyborg commandoes or dropping disruptors on things. Its about as dynamic as a brick.

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They both have loads of micro, heck RA is all micro (and dull)

T-Dawn offers the best gameplay out there, its just on a much older engine that lacks the features the TS engine has.

4 hours of tib sun was entirely seen to my eyes of either using cyborg commandoes or dropping disruptors on things. Its about as dynamic as a brick.

 

then you haven't seen any sort of decent game of tiberian sun if that is your perspective. games can go from 5 mins to 2 hours with a huge range of situational tactics and intense micro+macro control....

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This calls for an interesting project:

How about making a scrap tree for each game?

 

First we decide, what is good against what. Then we start scrapping the most useless units first. Meaning, if there are much better options, then the unit is simply discarded.

And lets see what remains as a "balanced" game :D.

 

I did this once on Warcraft 2, Only the Footman/Grunt is scrapped when full tech is reached. Every other unit remains a valid only choice.

 

To compare, in TS, you go for the most advanced air unit any ways. Thus the weaker ones are scrapped.

By majority, we already can scrap the nod buggy. Although, the wolverine is a valid help when attacking with juggernaughts and titans.

Now, this doesn't do much yet. But if you scrap one unit, another one might become less useful. Thus that one might get scrapped in turn as well.

 

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That wouldnt be possible. You would have to to make a separate tree for size of the map, terrain, how far you are into the game, defense/offense etc.

I have seen the Nod buggy being used to scout by quite a lot of Nod players actually. So apart from the Cyborg and Wolverine every unit in this game has its use in certain situations.

That doesnt mean that we run around with our armies composed of every unit in the game though. TS doesnt work like that. It's not a game of armies, it's a game of buildings. You don't try to counter the other guys units and meet up in the middle to fight until one army remains. This only happens in the first 5minutes with infantries.

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In that case, we can consider two possibilities.

1. We take a look if an unit is used at a certain point, regardless of map size. It would be more of a general oppinion of the people here. After all, only newbs(noobs) would use the "useless" units.

2. We only take a look at the end game, regardless of map size.... etc.

 

I propose option 1.

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The only genuinely useless unit is the wolverine and even then it can be used as a cheap scouting unit due to its speed. The Hover MLRS can be used on maps with water and is useful as a mobile same site, the Nod borg can be used as a scouting unit early in the game due to its durability vs. anti-scout infantry, the Nod buggy is a usfeul scouting unit, the Nod bike is a usfeul scouting unit and can be used for defence vs. disruptors or as an offensive unit as part of an early rush and JumpJet infantry are the best scouting unit in the game. I agree there are arguments to be had over the effectiveness and the cost of some of these units, particularly the wolverine and buggies effectiveness vs. infantry, but why remove or limit them from the game?

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A scrap tree is something different then scrapping units from the game. ( remove the s )

 

It is more or less a thought experiment, mapped out. Where you can create a ranking of the best to worst units in a game. Since you create a tree to start with, discussion schould be easier to see which unit is the worst. Eventually, there will be a top of units left that hardly can be scrapped "in a particular order".

 

Ps. Recon bikes against disruptor is a new one for me.

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A scrap tree is something different then scrapping units from the game. ( remove the s )

 

It is more or less a thought experiment, mapped out. Where you can create a ranking of the best to worst units in a game. Since you create a tree to start with, discussion schould be easier to see which unit is the worst. Eventually, there will be a top of units left that hardly can be scrapped "in a particular order".

 

Ps. Recon bikes against disruptor is a new one for me.

How about this...

 

Create a new option where players are required to select a unit that they cannot use. Then they play the game without that unit?

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What about Jump Jet Infantry in Tiberian Sun?

I always use them to shoot down enemy air units 20 jump jet infantry can shoot down a banshee easy.

 

thats the biggest waste of cash i've ever heard lol. Buy a sam?

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I'm pretty certain he was kidding about 20 JJ's vs a banshee, but making a sam, good advice.    LOL

 

Don't even get me started on making pavement. I know pavement is not a unit, but it is useless and you could be making a unit! Even a useless unit is better than pavement!

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I'm pretty certain he was kidding about 20 JJ's vs a banshee, but making a sam, good advice.    LOL

 

Don't even get me started on making pavement. I know pavement is not a unit, but it is useless and you could be making a unit! Even a useless unit is better than pavement!

 

I hope this is a joke too! Pavement is super key, takes about 3 seconds and can save your mcv/war

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I'm pretty certain he was kidding about 20 JJ's vs a banshee, but making a sam, good advice.    LOL

 

Don't even get me started on making pavement. I know pavement is not a unit, but it is useless and you could be making a unit! Even a useless unit is better than pavement!

 

I hope this is a joke too! Pavement is super key, takes about 3 seconds and can save your mcv/war

You're right.

 

It prevents subterranean units from coming up in those areas, allows some vehicles to move around faster, and also prevents ground damage.

 

I used to think those pavements were a waste of my time... even after I read the manual about its benefits. Until things went downhill for me while playing campaign mode.

 

The enemy kept sending subterranean vehicles into my base. (I had too many surprise attacks.)

 

It took a while for some vehicles to cut through the base.

 

Parts of my base were un-buildable due to damage from rockets. (I would have a building there. It gets destroyed, but I can't rebuild anything there.)

 

After playing through the whole campaign twice, I decided to give those pavements a try. Now, I'm glad I used them.

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