[Discussion] Are the Soviets underpowered against Yuri?

[aWarNoob1]

I'm going to link an old thread from the Xwis forums where pro allied player PiNeRs even agrees that Sov are a way better faction than allied. He makes a lot of solid points in this, and i'll quote a few that I think are relevant to this thread.

https://xwis.net/forums/index.php/topic/174385-sovs-and-allies-the-official-comparison/

 

" 11.Camping
Either faction can camp if they so chose. However the soviets do not have to invest much on camping because their tanks are superior and they are usually massing tanks anyways because thats what they do. So the soviet army compistion is perfect for camping-- if they so choose. The allies on the other hand do no have this luxory. In order to camp they need to set up a specific postion with paras and or alot of dogs and pillboxes or even prism towers because they are quite often not just spending all of their resources on tanks.... "

" 13. Late game
The allied, in alot of cases do indeed have a better late game. Paradrops are free, spies, ore pures and navy finally comes into play, etc. However, red alert is a very fast paced game and usually doesnt go that late most games. Not to mention most maps do not favor end-game situations anyway (see goldenstatefreeway and urban rush). The problem is GETTING to an advantagous late game. A spy is 1600 credits with ifv. One drone can take it out if seen for only 500, and the drone lives. The ore pure takes alot to get to, let alone let set in. 2000 for the blab, 2500 for the orepure, and 1600 for the 2 extra power plants. And then ur eco STARTS. Meanwhile the sov just built 3 more warfacs and is splitting. Good luck holding. It is very difficult for the allied to set up an advantage vs an expert sov. The sov has to miss something. A split for miner, a spy, messes up TC, misses a para, etc. If both play correctly, the soviet player should theoretically win majority every single time, and thats assuming its a fair map and most favor sovs as it is. "

 

"  In conclusion soviets are better at tank fights, have better fodder, have a time and money advantage, are better at rushing, are better at stoping rushing, are better at laming, are better at stopping laming, have better miners, are better at killing armies with only one unit, are better at cuttin off angles, have better superweapons, have a greater intial navy threat, have equal air threat on certain maps, have easier job for micromanging units, can camp better, can set up an attack better, can run away better, can engage better.
Allies have, sometimes, a better late game in a game thats very fast paced and rarely goes into late game. "

 

That last bit is the important part. Allies sometimes have a better late game, but it depends on the map, and it rarely should ever go to a late game. Bottom line is, Sov is a better faction with Sw either on or off. Also Iraq is the perfect faction for sov. We sov players don't mess around. We know what works and we stick to it.

[aWarNoob1]

Also you guys keep going on about how sovs are the weakest and would stand no chance IF you dont make iraq desos, and IF sw is off, and IF its late game, and IF allied player has 50 bfs, and IF sov doesn't make any rhino tanks. etc. etc.

I'm not entirely sure what point you guys are trying to make here really.

The take away though is this:

Sov is generally the stronger faction. Maybe with sw off it might be difficult against yuri, but that's it. The rest depends on the player's skill level and map selection.

Edited August 29, 2021 by aWarNoob_sed0na

[XGalaxyZ]

37 minutes ago, aWarNoob_sed0na said:

Also you guys keep going on about how sovs are the weakest and would stand no chance IF you dont make iraq desos, and IF sw is off, and IF its late game, and IF allied player has 50 bfs, and IF sov doesn't make any rhino tanks. etc. etc.

I'm not entirely sure what point you guys are trying to make here really.

The take away though is this:

Sov is generally the stronger faction. Maybe with sw off it might be difficult against yuri, but that's it. The rest depends on the player's skill level and map selection.

I Will say it Loud and Clear! That sovs ARE THE WEAKEST FACTION!. If supers are OFF. And if they dont play Iraq. They have too much stuff Which is entirely obsolete. or too situational to use. Look at apoc tanks Nobodys gonna build them at all. If facing any of the 3 factions. Even in mirrors. They get skipped completely! So YES! If you can play sovs. well they can do decent But clearly the better faction?! NO! As Only Iraq is their best country And they only got Rhinos Flak Desos Industrial Plant IC Sieges. to make em good. The Point of Sovs. is that WITHOUT Rhinos. They absolutely get destroyed. As Sieges are only viable If a map gets a terrain/cliffs advantage to them.  Apoc Tanks Just suck on so many parts Like i said. that it isnt even worth buying. At all. 

[XMaDTanKX aka T-90]

Thats it, ppl complain about spaming rhinos as if the sov players had other options and the fact is that they really don't...

Edited August 29, 2021 by XMaDTanKX aka T-90

[XGalaxyZ]

34 minutes ago, XMaDTanKX aka T-90 said:

Thats it, ppl complain about spaming rhinos as if the sov players had other options and the fact is that they really don't...

Yeah. thats true and as Sov Main. that i am It sucks my favorite faction. Is so limited with options. Even if you gave apocalypse tanks. Many tweaks. Its still gonna be useless. No matter what  Atleast Flak is still awesome for air defence. purpose. But everyone should always spam rhinos.  

[XGalaxyZ]

4 hours ago, aWarNoob_sed0na said:

 and IF its late game, and IF allied player has 50 bfs, and IF sov doesn't make any rhino tanks.

I am so glad IF Its late game and IF the allied player has 50 Bfs. Because! When they are full of elite GGis. the soviet player should SPAM 1000 Apocalypse Tanks! To counter them! ❤️  As that would be hilarious to see the BFs Take them all down. ❤️ 

 

[Ezer_2000]

12 hours ago, aWarNoob_sed0na said:

I'm going to link an old thread from the Xwis forums where pro allied player PiNeRs even agrees that Sov are a way better faction than allied. He makes a lot of solid points in this, and i'll quote a few that I think are relevant to this thread.

https://xwis.net/forums/index.php/topic/174385-sovs-and-allies-the-official-comparison/

That's also about RA2. YR soviets weakier and Allies stronger. Not just because they got new units. Almost all their units are stronger than in RA2.

8 hours ago, XMaDTanKX aka T-90 said:

ppl complain about spaming rhinos

Again RA2. In Yuri's Revenge rhino spam is a thing only noobs complaining about.

 

8 hours ago, XGalaxyZ said:

Atleast Flak is still awesome for air defence. purpose. But everyone should always spam rhinos.

Bacasue noobs complained too much and other stuff were overnerfed and now high tier is almost useless. Since RA2 times soviets high tier overnerfed, but RA2 low tier soviets a bit OP. And YR game got generally sronger Allies. But they forget to buff soviet high tier. And as result a bit balanced rhino spam in the begining (but if you play at 45 fps and use SEAL IFV quick and drop GI and more IFVs to harrash your enemy you will win). And complitely useless soviets in late game. SW should be a random  option, same as in RA2 QM. Yuri Strong in the begining but in the late game useless shit in big maps.

[XGalaxyZ]

1 hour ago, Ezer_2000 said:

That's also about RA2. YR soviets weakier and Allies stronger. Not just because they got new units. Almost all their units are stronger than in RA2.

Again RA2. In Yuri's Revenge rhino spam is a thing only noobs complaining about.

 

Bacasue noobs complained too much and other stuff were overnerfed and now high tier is almost useless. Since RA2 times soviets high tier overnerfed, but RA2 low tier soviets a bit OP. And YR game got generally sronger Allies. But they forget to buff soviet high tier. And as result a bit balanced rhino spam in the begining (but if you play at 45 fps and use SEAL IFV quick and drop GI and more IFVs to harrash your enemy you will win). And complitely useless soviets in late game. SW should be a random  option, same as in RA2 QM. Yuri Strong in the begining but in the late game useless shit in big maps.

 But Noobs. will always remain Noobs. ❤️ That is why if someone masters. their faction. Well they can do some good wins with them   But would Hungry Spies Be even a good option for sovs? Or just too OP?  As then noobs. can happily spam vet rhinos ❤️ 

[XMaDTanKX aka T-90]

1 hour ago, Ezer_2000 said:

But they forget to buff soviet high tier. 

That's EXACTLY what I was trying to explain first 

[XGalaxyZ]

45 minutes ago, XMaDTanKX aka T-90 said:

That's EXACTLY what I was trying to explain first 

 But Almost everyone can agree. That Soviets. need a major overhaul. With their units. Especially the ones. Which are very worthless. In their current states. Flak Tracks Rhinos Sieges ICs. Desos should stay the same. But Really Buff. the stuff That is very Underused. Like Crazy Ivans. Both versions. Need to gain Promotions. If they destroy enough stuff. As Nobodys gonna train units. And kill stuff If they gain no promotions doing so.  But anyways @XMaDTanKX aka T-90 And @Ezer_2000 Which Buffs would you give to soviets. to make them better? ❤️

[XMaDTanKX aka T-90]

Clearly a good counter to BF's and Mirages other than Deso to re-balance every Soviet country and some air unit like the Mig planes they had in Red Alert 1 - Retaliation - Aftermath would be interesting. 

And on Naval maps a counter to Dolphins to re-balance naval war.

[aWarNoob1]

You guys are confusing two different things here. Here's the arguments you guys are making:

"Soviets are the WEAKEST side!"

"Allied are STRONGER than soviet!"

Why? "because look at everything the allies have! Rockies, ggis, bfs, mirage, prism tank, seal ifvs, spy, etc"

More variability =/= stronger side

Allies call for a different gamestyle and yes, i've seen some pro allied players who are godly with micromanaging all that stuff.

,but that doesn't de facto make Allied a better faction to play with. What I'm referring to as a better faction here is which side is more likely to help you win, allied or soviet. This now boils down to which play style works best for you. If you want to throw in these contingencies about "SW off" or "NO IRAQ" than o.k. we can have a separate argument about that. Just remember that most pro games are not even played with those settings.

I'll admit that the Soviet side is mostly only used with Iraq and maybe Libya, but really, are you claiming allies have so much more? First of all, Germany sucks, and no one takes a France player seriously. That only leaves Great Britain, USA, and Korea. For the latter you have to still be good with Eagle control as not every allied player is good with those. USA paradrops are instant kill with deso. Maybe GB snipers can be considered a minor nuisance. I'm not sure this is enough to justify preferring allied over soviet.

I've already admitted that allied may have an upper hand in a late game, but even then it depends who is playing which side. To claim that soviet are completely useless in late game is a lie. I've spectated 15 minute games where a soviet player turns the tables on a campy allied dude with his mirage and bfs.

As for soviets losing if they wouldn't make rhinos? Would you send a soldier into battle without his rifle? Would you laugh at the lion if he didn't have his 4 legs to hunt? What I mean is that yes! we know Rhinos are our strongest unit, and we use them to our advantage, so what of it?!

I'll leave you guys with this video of 3 games, Soviet Vs. Allied, all won by the Soviet player. Notice the last two games go for quite a while:

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by aWarNoob_sed0na

[XGalaxyZ]

3 hours ago, aWarNoob_sed0na said:

You guys are confusing two different things here. Here's the arguments you guys are making:

"Soviets are the WEAKEST side!"

"Allied are STRONGER than soviet!"

Why? "because look at everything the allies have! Rockies, ggis, bfs, mirage, prism tank, seal ifvs, spy, etc"

More variability =/= stronger side

Allies call for a different gamestyle and yes, i've seen some pro allied players who are godly with micromanaging all that stuff.

,but that doesn't de facto make Allied a better faction to play with. What I'm referring to as a better faction here is which side is more likely to help you win, allied or soviet. This now boils down to which play style works best for you. If you want to throw in these contingencies about "SW off" or "NO IRAQ" than o.k. we can have a separate argument about that. Just remember that most pro games are not even played with those settings.

I'll admit that the Soviet side is mostly only used with Iraq and maybe Libya, but really, are you claiming allies have so much more? First of all, Germany sucks, and no one takes a France player seriously. That only leaves Great Britain, USA, and Korea. For the latter you have to still be good with Eagle control as not every allied player is good with those. USA paradrops are instant kill with deso. Maybe GB snipers can be considered a minor nuisance. I'm not sure this is enough to justify preferring allied over soviet.

I've already admitted that allied may have an upper hand in a late game, but even then it depends who is playing which side. To claim that soviet are completely useless in late game is a lie. I've spectated 15 minute games where a soviet player turns the tables on a campy allied dude with his mirage and bfs.

As for soviets losing if they wouldn't make rhinos? Would you send a soldier into battle without his rifle? Would you laugh at the lion if he didn't have his 4 legs to hunt? What I mean is that yes! we know Rhinos are our strongest unit, and we use them to our advantage, so what of it?!

I'll leave you guys with this video of 3 games, Soviet Vs. Allied, all won by the Soviet player. Notice the last two games go for quite a while:

 

XD. Allies and Soviets are the weakest.  Its not too late! To join the powerful! Yuri Faction! ❤️

Join the Yuri Side! Or get eaten By My Hungry Yuri Brutes! ❤️ 

[XMaDTanKX aka T-90]

Look at the game @ Cold War, Mr Zain has to appeal to Deso and SW to overcome Allied mass mirages even when his economy was so damaged from the start, and we all know Zain is a hard nut to crack who will attack you with the first tank. I don't say what he did is worthless but, what would have happened if:

1.- SW were just off?

2.- He picked other Sov country than Iraq?

You know the answer bro.

We all know Soviets are the strong faction in low Technology/Short game or whatever but if the Allied is good and hold the pressure and makes the game go late, he can turn the table and I'm talking about equal skilled players.

You also forget pure naval maps like Depth Charge or Alaskan Oil, how would you overcome a good Allied on such maps?

Edited August 30, 2021 by XMaDTanKX aka T-90

[ReaperAA]

On 8/30/2021 at 1:31 PM, aWarNoob_sed0na said:

You guys are confusing two different things here. Here's the arguments you guys are making:

"Soviets are the WEAKEST side!"

"Allied are STRONGER than soviet!"

Why? "because look at everything the allies have! Rockies, ggis, bfs, mirage, prism tank, seal ifvs, spy, etc"

More variability =/= stronger side

Allies call for a different gamestyle and yes, i've seen some pro allied players who are godly with micromanaging all that stuff.

,but that doesn't de facto make Allied a better faction to play with. What I'm referring to as a better faction here is which side is more likely to help you win, allied or soviet. This now boils down to which play style works best for you. If you want to throw in these contingencies about "SW off" or "NO IRAQ" than o.k. we can have a separate argument about that. Just remember that most pro games are not even played with those settings.

I'll admit that the Soviet side is mostly only used with Iraq and maybe Libya, but really, are you claiming allies have so much more? First of all, Germany sucks, and no one takes a France player seriously. That only leaves Great Britain, USA, and Korea. For the latter you have to still be good with Eagle control as not every allied player is good with those. USA paradrops are instant kill with deso. Maybe GB snipers can be considered a minor nuisance. I'm not sure this is enough to justify preferring allied over soviet.

I've already admitted that allied may have an upper hand in a late game, but even then it depends who is playing which side. To claim that soviet are completely useless in late game is a lie. I've spectated 15 minute games where a soviet player turns the tables on a campy allied dude with his mirage and bfs.

As for soviets losing if they wouldn't make rhinos? Would you send a soldier into battle without his rifle? Would you laugh at the lion if he didn't have his 4 legs to hunt? What I mean is that yes! we know Rhinos are our strongest unit, and we use them to our advantage, so what of it?!

I'll leave you guys with this video of 3 games, Soviet Vs. Allied, all won by the Soviet player. Notice the last two games go for quite a while

 

Finally someone who actually knows what he is talking about. Although there is one area where I slightly disagree about France not being taken seriously. France actually is used by pro players for map control. France is "arguably" the best Allied faction against Yuri (arguable because it depends on maps. Its either America or France against Yuri).

Edited August 31, 2021 by ReaperAA

[ReaperAA]

18 hours ago, XMaDTanKX aka T-90 said:

Look at the game @ Cold War, Mr Zain has to appeal to Deso and SW to overcome Allied mass mirages even when his economy was so damaged from the start, and we all know Zain is a hard nut to crack who will attack you with the first tank. I don't say what he did is worthless but, what would have happened if:

1.- SW were just off?

2.- He picked other Sov country than Iraq?

You know the answer bro.

We all know Soviets are the strong faction in low Technology/Short game or whatever but if the Allied is good and hold the pressure and makes the game go late, he can turn the table and I'm talking about equal skilled players.

You also forget pure naval maps like Depth Charge or Alaskan Oil, how would you overcome a good Allied on such maps?

Here is the thing though:

1. Almost all pro games and QM games are played with SWs ON.

2. Picking non-Iraq Soviet is like picking Germany as Allied. Granted, this means that other Soviet country units need buffs. But the fact is, no one picks them because Iraq is just much better, just like how no one picks Germany because America is much better.

3. Allied as stronger than Soviets on pure naval maps. But 90% maps are non-naval maps.

[[CC] RaVaGe]

On 8/29/2021 at 7:22 AM, aWarNoob_sed0na said:

The allied, in alot of cases do indeed have a better late game. Paradrops are free, spies, ore pures and navy finally comes into play, etc. However, red alert is a very fast paced game and usually doesnt go that late most games. Not to mention most maps do not favor end-game situations anyway (see goldenstatefreeway and urban rush). The problem is GETTING to an advantagous late game. A spy is 1600 credits with ifv. One drone can take it out if seen for only 500, and the drone lives. The ore pure takes alot to get to, let alone let set in. 2000 for the blab, 2500 for the orepure, and 1600 for the 2 extra power plants. And then ur eco STARTS. Meanwhile the sov just built 3 more warfacs and is splitting. Good luck holding. It is very difficult for the allied to set up an advantage vs an expert sov. The sov has to miss something. A split for miner, a spy, messes up TC, misses a para, etc. If both play correctly, the soviet player should theoretically win majority every single time, and thats assuming its a fair map and most favor sovs as it is. "

This is exactly the problem and what happens in QM and unranked matches between top players.

[aWarNoob1]

18 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

Here is the thing though:

1. Almost all pro games and QM games are played with SWs ON.

2. Picking non-Iraq Soviet is like picking Germany as Allied. Granted, this means that other Soviet country units need buffs. But the fact is, no one picks them because Iraq is just much better, just like how no one picks Germany because America is much better.

3. Allied as stronger than Soviets on pure naval maps. But 90% maps are non-naval maps.

Reaper, laying down the facts.

Edited September 1, 2021 by aWarNoob_sed0na