JackoDerp decides to rant about Tiberian Dawn for some reason.

[X3M]

Perhaps this might come as a stupid question. But aren't Humm-vee's the best ones to deal with SSM-Launchers?

 

You have about 2 Humm-vee's for each SSM-Launcher, you don't need much tech for Humm-vee's. They are faster, thus dodge the missile IF you play at a bit lower speed as intended. And the weapon of the Humm-vee is strong enough to deal with light armor.

Further, Medium Tanks relatively don't take much damage from this missile.

I do admit, that the Mammoth is waaaaay to slow. But very strong if you trap the SSM.

Let us not forget, APC's. Better armor, for a higher price. Also fast enough to dodge the missiles. And if it is low ammount of units, simply deploy some grenadiers and bazooka men. Heck, even minigunners are sufficient enough.

 

@Ferret

You points are good ones. However, they are linked to the fact that every one goes money map + max speed. Imagine how much more micro is possible if you just slow down a tad and make income less (but constant).

A good map should contain a lot of blossom tree's I think to get the constant income. After all, the regeneration is an OMG factor in the early games.

 

Starcraft has been balanced on 1 speed only.

Starcraft has been balanced on the fact that standard ladder maps had a fixed amount of resources for any player.

C&C3/Kanes Wrath copies this completely and is in that regard a good game (my opinion).

[Jacko]

You seem to forget that most players will stack a whole bunch of units protecting their SSM missiles.

If you have mammoths you can probably ignore the SSM when you charge out and smash everything, except usually you lose before you can get mammoths.

[X3M]

True, that is how they are supposed to be used.

But how would you deal with them then?

 

SSM are a late tier, I think that when the time arrives for the NOD player to be building them. It also means that if any GDI player who is still alive and survived to that point, will surely have a ton of tanks by now. That would be the main reason for a drawn out fight supplying the players with late tier. Regardless the choice of Medium or Mammoth.

 

OR

 

GDI is towerturtling. Which in that case would justify the means of SSM. And GDI is certainly doomed at that point.

[AchromicWhite]

The SSM doesn't matter that it can't deal with tanks.

 

The entire GDI force, other than like 20 mammoths, is totally reliant on infantry to survive. So long as the SSM can pay for itself in trading against troops, it was a good investment for the Nod player.

 

Once the troops are down, the tanks pretty much have to go home or die. If they die, GDI insta-loses, if they get home, GDI can reinforce the tanks, once again, with infantry, and have another crack at moving out.

[Jacko]

The SSM doesn't matter that it can't deal with tanks.

 

The entire GDI force, other than like 20 mammoths, is totally reliant on infantry to survive. So long as the SSM can pay for itself in trading against troops, it was a good investment for the Nod player.

 

Once the troops are down, the tanks pretty much have to go home or die. If they die, GDI insta-loses, if they get home, GDI can reinforce the tanks, once again, with infantry, and have another crack at moving out.

 

Except that turning around and running home is a worse idea than staying and fighting, at least then you take some enemies with you.

Nod's fast units mean you can't just run away.

[AchromicWhite]

When I say, "run away" I mean kite away, haha. Move and fire, man. It minimises dmg and gets you where you need to go.

[X3M]

NOD has many anti infantry weapons. But you have your APC's for dealing with that.

This way you give infantry speed and armour until the point of exiting the APC.

I do suggest out of experience, keep them in the APC and use the APC themselves for shooting the SSM first. Because with amass SSM, there is bound to be one who hits the infantry.

Also, I don't use bazooka or grenadiers for this. Only minigunners. They are just as effective, but are cheaper and shoot instantly.

Against other NOD units, you simply fill (or not) your APC's accordingly. And order the APC to let them exit when they can help without being obliterated first.

[cn2mc]

I totally agree about APC's and indeed try (and often manage) to put them to good use vs. bike/buggying Nod players, but there still are issues here. The worst is that an APC being fired at will not unload and will instead try to return fire. The second-worst is the micro-intensive manual loading of men one by one. The third issue is that on tib-soaked maps a la HJK infantry will still fight at a disadvantage once they start spreading out. A good thing about APCs is that they will usually instantly become the main targets for your enemy's light units, so you can more easily divert his attention and you can do a fair bit of damage to his army before he realizes his bikes are up against fighting men and not engineers.

[X3M]

Yeah, that manual loading 1 by 1 is indeed anoying. And players often have no time for that.

[AchromicWhite]

Yeah... In top level games, I can't imagine doing this.

And, I think grens are better; extra range, damage and speed (for engaging quickly, as men don't move and fire).

I may give minigunners a shot, but the thing is, I use men to "tank" for my tanks. They act as a scattered wall in front of my tanks. If not, the bikes etc will rush in and do serious damage. If I then unload the APCs, the bikes can just leave, and I'm left trying to put them all back in again... lol.

 

I would, however, like to see any replays where you guys use this tactic successfully. I'm somewhat intrigued.

 

The thing about SSM is not "how do you engage the SSM?". It's "How can you get THROUGH the bikes/buggies using infantry+tank to GET TO the SSM, when the SSM will just kill the troops? The infantry which you need to get through the light vehicles efficiently".

[Jacko]

The thing about SSM is not "how do you engage the SSM?". It's "How can you get THROUGH the bikes/buggies using infantry+tank to GET TO the SSM, when the SSM will just kill the troops? The infantry which you need to get through the light vehicles efficiently".

 

This is exactly the problem. In fact I could use it to argue that SSM Would NOT be excessively powerful if it was a GDI weapon.

[AchromicWhite]

Exactly. The game is less about the strait power of units/cost ratio and more about how units match up.

[X3M]

I didn't mean that the APC unload for dealing with the Bikes.

I meant that the APC try to reach the SSM instead. And unload only there (preferably only when the APC is destroyed). It sounds weird, but a couple of infantry might be able to tackle one SSM before dying in the inferno.

 

The tactic often fails if you wait to long. And the wall of B/B is big enough to block your APC out.

 

And I don't use APC alone, there are always some Mediums with them.

 

[cn2mc]

Doesn't sound too cost effective. I'd rather use the APCs to soak/dodge the first SSM shots and then engage the bikes up close. That way even if my men get toasted on the second shot, the bikes also take additional damage from the SSM's friendly fire, or are forced to retreat. Still, when Nod are siege-capable with SSMs, mass med. tanks might be what's best for GDI. They usually are, the trick is getting that far.

[AchromicWhite]

Yeah, I don't think you could run the APC up to the SSM without it getting pwnd... unless they're bad at micro anyway... im which case I'll probs just get them with med/gren/hum.

soaking the shots with a faster heavy unit to waste the ammo sounds like a better idea. I may try that one cn2.

[nariac]

 

The actual game itself

 

Now as we all know there have been several discussions over the balancing of the game, mostly involving Overpowered and Underpowered units.

I'm now going to attempt to describe what I think about the games balancing and how it can be improved.

 

So... simply put:

 

Nod >> GDI

 

There is no real situation for the majority of the game where GDI have any sort of advantage in any area at all. Except about 20 minutes in when you've somehow amassed 20+ mammoths without getting rekt.

 

Here is my justification why:

 

Nod's light units are ridiculously powerful and can quickly overrun anything regardless of what is in their way. Many newer players think that it is all about the bikes, and this is partially true, but really there is a much bigger collection of problems amongst any player foolish enough to pick GDI.

 

Buggies.

 

Verdict: Buggies are ridiculously overpowered. I would give buggies half HP to make Nod players think about how to deal with humvees and infantry more carefully, rather than spamming a million buggies and forgetting about it.

 

Bikes

 

Verdict: Maybe need a minor nerf, but nothing too much.

 

SSM Missiles

 

Verdict: Crazy powerful, simply because they cannot be countered. Make it more expensive, make it require temple, or simply remove it from multiplayer.

 

Light Tanks

 

Verdict: Needs a damage buff at the least, these things are mostly useless.

 

Flamers

 

Verdict: A bit Overpowered. Maybe make more expensive and/or nerf their damage/speed.

 

Turrets and Obelisks

 

Verdict: Obelisks are fine, turrets need some kind of cost/damage nerf, because they are just ridiculous.

 

Apaches

 

Verdict: Stupidly high damage, but that's it really.

 

Now that we have highlighted why Nod are so powerful, lets highlight the problems from a GDI player's point of view.

 

The weapons factory

 

Verdict: Of course it needs more HP. Give it the HP of a conyard at MINIMUM. These things die to a feather and make GDI just unplayable on some maps.

 

Guard Tower and Advanced Guard Tower

 

These things are not so bad at what they do, but the Guard Tower lacks any decent health, and the advanced guard tower just doesn't do enough splash damage. Maybe if buggies got nerfed this wouldn't be so much of an issue.

 

Rocket Launcher and Humvee

 

Rocket launcher is well known as something that is legitimately useless. It has terrible Armour, low damage and requires the advanced communications centre to build. Nothing else needs to be said. Sadly for GDI this is their only real unit that is any sort of artillery. If only they had something like the SSM...

 

Humvees are generally regarded as players think they are much more powerful than they actually are. I already pointed out that compared to a buggy they are just hugely inefficient, and frankly using any more than 3 humvees in a vehicle fight and you are just harming yourself. Buggies, Bikes, Light Tanks, Flame tanks (mostly buggies) will totally smash your humvees into the ground like nothing. You use them to scout and maybe beef up vehicle numbers, but other than that, forget using them.

 

Orcas

 

Orcas look snazzy, build quick and have good anti-armour damage (but fairly poor damage to most buildings). Shame that bikes are so strong against them that these guys just are not useful.

 

 

Agree with all these points. Would be interesting to hear from other players and the mods whether any kind of tweaks might be needed. Nod shouldn't hands down beat GDI all the time. Perhaps the following?

 

• Buggies - raise price to $350?
  
• Bikes - these are the bread and butter signature Nod unit, maybe best to leave as is.
  
• SSM - have this require the Temple of Nod, makes sense if it's supposed to break a turtling GDI defence wall in late game. Nod has many ways to kill infantry in early game
  
• Light Tank - slight damage buff to make Nod players actually want to build them
  
• Flamers - Slight nerf to damage/speed so they don't wreck the vital GDI infantry too easily, which also allows for:
  
• Chem Warriors - slight buff so they take the place Flamers used to have, a tougher, later game infantry killer. If I recall correctly CW are currently a useless unit? This might give them a defined role.
  
• Turret/Obelisk - increase turret cost to $700?
  
• Apache - probably leave as it is ... considering:
  
• Rocket Launcher - Does Nod even need this? Bikes are amazing AA, and Nod already has an Artillery unit. Maybe buff this with longer range or more health, requires normal comm centre not adv., and make it GDI only
  
• Weapons Factory - health buff to medium at least. Light armour is silly
  
• Guard/Advanced Guard Tower - would probably leave as is
  
• Hum-vee - These things need to be tougher or have their cost slightly reduced. I'd lean towards keeping the $400 price, but giving a slight armour/health buff. However this would depend on what was changed with Buggies.
  
• Orcas - would probably leave as is
  

[Jacko]

My thought on Nod's light units are they are all about taking risks. You risk that little bit of damage to your units every time you hit-and-run enemy vehicles/infantry/harvesters/whatever. The problem with buggies that they have far too much HP, combined with such a low cost, for that to be even determined "a risk to use in combat". I.e. the $300 loss for a buggy is basically nothing. Hence I think there should be a "higher risk and control" factor that involves a skill of using buggies effectively without wasting them, similarly to how poorly controlling bikes (usually involving infantry) will get you rekt. This leads onto my suggestion that if you halved (or even more of a nerf) buggy HP, they could still be dangerous IF they are controlled properly or if the enemy simply doesn't make an effort into dealing with them. That way using them isn't totally useless but it means that it takes more skill to use them and they are easier to fight against. The other advantage is it forces people to use other anti-infantry more (perhaps even an Arty or 2).

 

Comparing that to a $500 loss for a bike, which is still fairly small but can build up quickly, because GDI ARE capable of dealing with bikes significantly better than they are with buggies.

 

Light Tanks as I mentioned are not very good. I think that many Nod players forget that they are even there. There are some good things to use light tanks for, mostly cannon fodder and infantry squishing but they are still ok I guess. The problem with building light tanks (Prepare for RA-Style reasoning) is the time you've spent building that sluggish piece of junk, you could've built 2 buggies which go around trashing things instantly. A Light tank has the damage almost the same as a bike, except it costs $100 more, moves incredibly slowly and is easy to kill with most Anti-Armour fire. As I said, they are more a utility unit than an actual combat unit, which is sad.

 

If Light tanks did get a damage buff then I think there would be nothing wrong with giving bikes a small damage nerf (only a small one), as this would fit my "Risk strategies" theory better.

If anyone ever bothers to check out my RA mod (link in my signature), I made a different solution where the more "Nod-like" faction actually has no buggies, and their bikes are basically Armour-munching glass-cannons. I'm not suggesting removing buggies altogether (although its always a thought).

 

SSM, Arty and Rocket Launcher.

 

I agree SSM needs to have its requirements changed. Having thought about it, what would happen if the requirements for SSM and Rocket Launcher got swapped (including appropriate Rocket Launcher Buffs and making it GDI only)? Temple of Nod/Adv Comm are very late-game buildings, so I'd say it would be about the appropriate time for a Nod player to maybe need to break down or taunt a stubborn GDI player.

 

I would say if you changed SSM and Buffed the Rocket Launcher, could you not give Arty a minor buff too? It is powerful but VERY slow and an easy sitting duck. It might convince people that they are worth using every once in a while. (I use them on Obelisks a lot).

 

Flamers and Chem Warriors

 

I do agree that flamers are too powerful. I also agree that Chem Warriors are actually a nerfed version of flamers (for what people use flamers for) that require a temple to build, which is silly. Chem Warriors have a different warhead type, which has less infantry damage but more damage vs Armour types (Especially Light armour). Having these guys as an early-mid game unit would be quite a cool thing really. Flame Tanks however are fine, in fact they would be much better if you incorporated the buggy nerf into it.

 

In fact, why not make Infantry considerably cheaper to make? It makes them more viable without being overpowered, as it puts more pressure on players to use Anti-infantry weapons effectively.

When I made CW I did this, and I think infantry now have good balance. These pricings work quite well:

 

Minigunner: $50

Grenadier: $100

Bazookas: $150 or $200

Flamers: $200

Engineers: $600 (gotta protect them carefully).

 

Finally for apaches (based on what White told us recently), changing their warhead from HE to SA would probably work fine.

 

[AchromicWhite]

These are good ideas. I'd like to talk more on it.

 

Are you, by any chance, keen to work on a wee project?

http://cnc-comm.com/community/index.php?topic=5277.0

 

Also, read the multiplayer part in full. There's some important points there.

I'll say this about a buggy HP nerf: by doing that, it may well trade worse than a humvee, meaning that GDI will focus soley on humvees in the early game and become more of an early aggressor, forcing Nod into a turtle eary game tactic. Which, IMO, doesn't fit the style of how the teams are meant to play out.

 

To me, the fact that Nod can tech into UNITS that effectively take out infantry (mainly thinking of grens here) and that GDI cannot tech into any unit that takes out buggies at the rate needed, means that Nod will always have the advantage. The best weapon that GDI gets is the AGT, but that's a defence structure, which means that while GDI is focusing on Comm + AGTs Nod can slap down more refs and a 2nd strip, putting them way out ahead... or just making apaches.

 

  -Liam

[X3M]

I have seen a lot of good suggestions.

But make sure you adjust one thing at a time and take note of the effects. Before adjusting the next.

Do not adjust prices. Players dislike that. Adjust the "hidden" instead. I think, range adjustments would do good for the game. If something is to weak. Give it +1 or +2 range.

 

The following units would benefit from it:

All infantry, Humm-vee's, MRLS, Artillery.

I have yet to witness buggy outranges/dodges grenade micro at the highest speed. So I think that this +1 range for the grenadier will be no problem with most players?

[AchromicWhite]

I disagree, as it's easier to be able to glance at the screen and know what a player is moving about (know what the units ARE intuitively). By ONLY adjusting prices on a unit, you can keep the unit the same as it moves around the map, and how it interacts, but give it a direct % nerf/buff.

 

Giving the Gren +1 would make it WAY too strong in the super early game, as they could just be used to beat all of the flamer inf and and march over Nod, haha.

 

In here lies the issue of changing a unit. It changes ALL of the interactions and pacing of the game.

[Jacko]

I agree with what White says. Giving grens +1 Range will just smash all other infantry into the ground.

Pricing changes are an easy "quick-fix" but if its possible its always worth trying to rework the power balance of the units as well. (Again, going to drop a massive plug for CW - check my signature )

 

Again as white says, changing the properties of one unit means you have to incorporate how it affects ALL sorts of other features.

Like if you buffed light tanks, its a thought that maybe Medium tanks could need a buff as well (In fact I think they could use a little more armour anyway)

 

 

[X3M]

There for I said:

 

The following units would benefit from it:

All infantry, Humm-vee's, MRLS, Artillery.

 

If you feel like grenadiers should not have +1 range, then don't.

If you feel like grenadiers would over power flamethrowers. I did say All infantry.

 

It is true though that only adjusting prices is the most direct adjustment one can do.

[ore_truck]

Buff the minigunners first! I always think they needed a +1 cell range boost. If grenadiers should have +1 range, then minigunners  need +2 range cells. Grenadiers are good against nod infantry and bikes, although not too good but at least they can do anything a minigunner can better: more damage, more sight range, more speed, more attack range, radial damage.

 

I want this generic infantry to be a good frontline grunt that supports your heavier troops and do other stuffs an all-rounder should but I always find flamethrowers and grenadiers are a more common choice for this role. How can we not see the most broken unit is the most basic and the first unit at the top of the list in the sidebar. I know they are the cheapest and should be the weakest but I think they are too weak, maybe weaker than intended?

 

Anyway, I'm fine with how the game is, it's just the underused units that bothers me a little.

[nariac]

I think minigunners do have an advantage in some respects - despite their short range their projectiles don't have travel time and can't miss, and also they're not volatile units, whereas grenadiers and flamers can set off chain reactions on death, killing their whole squad.

 

Minigunners can therefore have a useful role in combined-arms infantry formations where they fill out the line alongside flamers and grenadiers and rocket soldiers, helping prevent the deadly chain reactions caused by the more powerful units dying, and providing accurate fire at short range.

[AchromicWhite]

A buff to minigunner that I'd like to see would be a strait HP buff. Something so that they can just hold the line for a while.

This way, other units can be positioned behind them, even just grens. That is, it'd be neat to see a rework which allowed minigunner + gren to be better than just strait grens. Probably hard balance to hit, though.