JackoDerp decides to rant about Tiberian Dawn for some reason.

[Jacko]

So I've had plenty of experiences on this forum and on the cncnet servers playing Tiberian Dawn - So I've decided to voice my thoughts on it (which is something I don't do enough)

The client and its features

 

Anyone who played on WOL or (in my case) cncnet4 knows full well that the features the Cncnet5 client offers are a whole lot better than anything previous.

Things like hires, map transfer (and the ease of creating new ones)* and improved (but not perfect) connectability have massively improved the player's experience, as well as attracted a large quantity of new players, which is great right?

 

*There are some good maps, but equally there are some very bad maps.

 

The client is by no means 100% perfect, but any gripes/suggestions about that have mostly been covered in White's "Tib Dawn wishlist topic" http://cnc-comm.com/community/index.php?topic=5079.0

 

In general - this is good.

 

The actual game itself

 

Now as we all know there have been several discussions over the balancing of the game, mostly involving Overpowered and Underpowered units.

I'm now going to attempt to describe what I think about the games balancing and how it can be improved.

 

So... simply put:

 

Nod >> GDI

 

There is no real situation for the majority of the game where GDI have any sort of advantage in any area at all. Except about 20 minutes in when you've somehow amassed 20+ mammoths without getting rekt.

 

Here is my justification why:

 

Nod's light units are ridiculously powerful and can quickly overrun anything regardless of what is in their way. Many newer players think that it is all about the bikes, and this is partially true, but really there is a much bigger collection of problems amongst any player foolish enough to pick GDI.

 

Buggies.

 

These little nightmares will just ignore anything you fire at them, fire their pew pew pew death gun and erase anything you own in half decent numbers. This is caused almost entirely by the fact that these bastards only cost $300, which means you can amass a million of these things at almost no cost and with no real way of your opponent having anything to deal with it. Many people believe that humvees are your only answer. They *should* have been helpful but frankly you're just digging an even bigger hole for yourself because a humvee is just a buggy that costs 33% more for some 7% increase in armour. REAL USEFUL HUH?. Frankly the buggy damage vs infantry, light vehicles and the majority of structures is so staggeringly high that you can wreck stuff immediately with the cheapest unit in the game. Why?

 

Verdict: Buggies are ridiculously overpowered. I would give buggies half HP to make Nod players think about how to deal with humvees and infantry more carefully, rather than spamming a million buggies and forgetting about it.

 

Bikes

 

Newer players seem to understand that bikes, for what they are, are rather powerful. In fact bikes on their own are not so bad (should you have any idea how to mitigate them), but their cheapness and high damage is somewhat concering when you realise they have a rate of damage comparable to a medium tank, which costs some $300 more. This combined with their high speed and excellent AA qualities, makes them really really powerful. At least their low-ish HP makes them valuable targets for the enemy.

 

Verdict: Maybe need a minor nerf, but nothing too much.

 

SSM Missiles

 

Everyone loves a ranged weapon that cannot be touched, hence they gave one to the team that really didn't need one. Nod already has the artillery, which when used appropriately is everything they should need. But the issue is that these guys are pretty much un-touchable. If you use aircraft bikes will trash you, if you use tanks they get rekt by bikes, if you use infantry the flamers/buggies/SSMs will flatten them, and a combination of anything will still lose for the same reason. For $750 you can get a basically indestructible supermissile that will, over time, erase anything the enemy has, without drawbacks. Honestly, I don't know what the westwood devs were thinking when they gave the SSM to Nod.

 

Verdict: Crazy powerful, simply because they cannot be countered. Make it more expensive, make it require temple, or simply remove it from multiplayer.

 

Light Tanks

 

The problem with these guys is that actually, they are NOT powerful at all. These guys have low armour for a tank, move fairly slow and have utterly terrible damage output. Hence, nobody uses them. In fact, these guys aren't useless (they are mostly there to take hits and squish infantry so bikes and buggies can do the real damage). They have their uses, but they suck at what westwood designed them for. (i.e. killing vehicles)

 

Verdict: Needs a damage buff at the least, these things are mostly useless.

 

Flamers

 

Everyone knows the power these guys have. Any group of infantry is at risk whenever these guys are around, if they get close they will ejaculate their 5000 tonnes of "fuck you" all over your infantry in a 1-tile radius, and render them pretty much useless. The simple problem of this is because GDI players NEED infantry to be able to do anything, tanks alone will get owned, but one or two well-placed flamers and you will be stuck with tanks alone... and lose. These guys do a crazy amount of damage, and then just do that little bit more when they die. I have no problem with flame tanks, simply because they are designed as a slow-nightmarish fear weapon, which can be killed before it does too much damage, unlike their little walking counterparts. Hence:

 

Verdict: A bit Overpowered. Maybe make more expensive and/or nerf their damage/speed.

 

Turrets and Obelisks

 

Obelisks are frustrating and annoying, but in the general balance of the game they are not so bad, simply because lategame they are the only real way to counter mammoths, but with their low Armour they are still easy pickings for ion cannons and infantry.

Turrets, on the other hand, are little nightmarish assholes that will not ever die. For $600 you get what is basically a stationary medium tank that is repairable and will slice up GDI vehicles like a knife through butter. Which means, with some small number of turrets you can make your base indestructible for the first 10 minutes of the game because vehicles that cost more and take longer to build will get shredded.

 

Verdict: Obelisks are fine, turrets need some kind of cost/damage nerf, because they are just ridiculous.

 

Apaches

 

Lets just agree that for a quick $6000 you can make any GDI building, harvester or vehicle (with the exception of mammoths) instantly disappear from the map. If they run into AA they might die, but getting decent AA coverage that apaches won't just go around (or shoot down) is frankly impossible or just outright super expensive. Especially when you get nuked and then you cant save any of your base from apaches anyway.

 

Verdict: Stupidly high damage, but that's it really.

Now that we have highlighted why Nod are so powerful, lets highlight the problems from a GDI player's point of view.

 

The weapons factory

 

Arguably one of the worst thought-out faction balancing mechanics ever created. Your weapons factory is so weak it will die to ANYTHING. A small buggy rush, a few flamers, a couple aircraft, you name it.

This weakness is such a huge nerf on GDI, which is rather unfair given that they were already inferior to Nod anyway. Earlygame you will lose it immediately to buggy/bike rushes, midgame to apaches and lategame to a 1-shot nuke. The amount of money required to protect your weapons factory vastly outstrips the cost to a Nod player that destroys it. Or worse, they just ignore it and target everything else you own. Its a lose-lose situation sadly.

 

Verdict: Of course it needs more HP. Give it the HP of a conyard at MINIMUM. These things die to a feather and make GDI just unplayable on some maps.

 

Guard Tower and Advanced Guard Tower

 

These things are not so bad at what they do, but the Guard Tower lacks any decent health, and the advanced guard tower just doesn't do enough splash damage. Maybe if buggies got nerfed this wouldn't be so much of an issue.

 

Rocket Launcher and Humvee

 

Rocket launcher is well known as something that is legitimately useless. It has terrible Armour, low damage and requires the advanced communications centre to build. Nothing else needs to be said. Sadly for GDI this is their only real unit that is any sort of artillery. If only they had something like the SSM...

 

Humvees are generally regarded as players think they are much more powerful than they actually are. I already pointed out that compared to a buggy they are just hugely inefficient, and frankly using any more than 3 humvees in a vehicle fight and you are just harming yourself. Buggies, Bikes, Light Tanks, Flame tanks (mostly buggies) will totally smash your humvees into the ground like nothing. You use them to scout and maybe beef up vehicle numbers, but other than that, forget using them.

 

Orcas

 

Orcas look snazzy, build quick and have good anti-armour damage (but fairly poor damage to most buildings). Shame that bikes are so strong against them that these guys just are not useful.

 

I think I've covered everything I wanted to. Anyone can counter-argue all they like but I think I've justified my reasoning enough. Now, onto the next topic.

 

The community

 

Generally the cncnet community is filled with nice people (with that one exception, see below), who want to support newer players, make better maps, and make the game more enjoyable with other players. Since cncnet 5 we have acquired a decent-sized group of well-skilled players and we can have some nice games.

 

There is no ultimate #1 player. Yes I got beat by ehy recently, but you know what? I don't care. They were very close games (Paritcularly the first round, 2nd round I was GDI so I wasn't going to win anyway), but ehy played better and he can say what he likes. This does however, lead me onto my next topic of discussion, and my one community exception.

 

Chem

 

I am just going to come out and say it, this guy is an asshole, and regardless of how good he might be at the game, I refuse to ever play with him again because:

 

Ever since he joined the forum (about a year ago now) he has just treated me like I am a piece of shit, and has been just as disrespectful to other players.

Lets just select a few of his "other names" for a tiny portion of the evidence.

 

ManuSucks, Manu^Retard, Jakub*, Justme*, JackyDerp*, ehythefag (this name got him banned) and many more

*impersonating other players

 

He's had numerous topics about shitposting other players (Including Me, ehy, Mattattack...) locked.

He's been muted/banned multiple times for being racist.

 

He is simply that asshole at the party trying to ruin everyone elses fun.

Frankly I was hugely disappointed that he was unbanned recently and up until yesterday I've at least tried to put up with his shit. And I know there are a decent number of players willing to back me up here.

 

He could be the best player in the world but he is such an asshole I would still have him banned.

 

So other than the fact chem is allowed on here, I like the Tiberian Dawn community on cncnet. Its a whole lot better than the Tiberian Sun community where everyone hates each other/accuses each other of dcing/cheating/whatever repeatedly for whatever reason. But whatever.

/Rant Over

 

Now get out there and enjoy 2016 and whatever it may bring you.

 

[AchromicWhite]

I pretty much agree with this post. I'll go down the list and reply to each section.

 

Buggies: For sure really really cheap for what you get, especially when you don't just compare them with other vehicles but with infantry... 2 grenadiers costs MORE than 1 buggy. WOW

However, this should be less of the issue and more for the fact that GDI doesn't have so many counters to them. Maps, for this case, are also a BIG issue. And I've spoken about this before in regards to the maps I've made. (Especially my 1v1 maps: Iron Valley, Frosted Hostilities, Canyon Pursuit).

I will say, there's something about this that I actually LIKE. As GDI, if you can have an area where you can wall up a bit and force engagements on your turns, splash weapons (like grenades and AGT), the Nod player can lose a serious amount of their army, which can be hard to come back from.

 

----This situation brings in a more important realisation: GDI doesn't have a proper artillery weapon to take advantage of such situations when outside of their base.----

 

Bikes: On open maps, they're surprisingly amazing, in that, even if your opponent makes pure bikes, as a GDI player, it can still be really hard to deal with, even if you're massing hummer/grens to try and counter it. Just using hit and run tactics on weapons factory/Con yard and harvesters/refineries can be super hard to deal with. Put them together with buggies and it's almost impossible to defeat in the hands of a really competent player.

 

SSM is surely a seriously powerful weapon. Once Nod has their main army up to stop direct engagements with them, they'll pump out some pretty crazy damage. Especially to infantry... and once the grenadiers are down, Nod can just roll over GDI.

Once again, though, if GDI had something long ranged (and not top tech for 800), maybe this wouldn't be such an issue?

It'd be nice if the orca could be used, as a flyer would be a clear counter to an artillery weapon, but with so many bikes on the field, there's little opportunity for such an engagement. I don't know if GDI having a weapon that would be more of a clear counter to bikes would change Nod composition enough to switch that up; again, would a decent artillery scare off Nod players, somewhat, from massing bikes quite so much, so that there would be more opportunity for Orca? hard to say.

 

 

Light tanks are for sure pretty weak for what you get, but they do have uses, and are quite important in Nod v Nod situations. Nod has many weapons that pump out serious damage, I think this tank makes a lot of sense in the way that it's currently balanced, but I know what you mean in feeling that it's not worth buying.

Once again, though, a HUGE reason Nod doesn't make these things is that GDI doesn't have proper ways to deal with mass light vehicles, making this tank somewhat obsolete. Imagine if there was a weapon that GDI could use to really give the punch to light vehicles... Nod would be forced to make heavier ones while they try to take such a weapon down, in order to give them back the field to the powerful light vehicle combination.

 

 

Flame troops are for sure super powerful, in that, you just pump a couple out and use them as suicide soldiers. The best counter I've found to this is having some humvees on a hotkey to snipe them before they can do the painful painful damage. The biggest issue here is that they actually seem to have a lot of HP and move at a high speed. 200 for a fast, high HP, High damage infantry is kinda crazy... further more, if the humvees get picked off (which is easy enough to do), then you have to do some seriously intense micro of moving the grens back while clicking on 1 or 2 of your own troops and moving them in to take them out.

The nerf I'd like to see here is an HP nerf and maybe 1 less speed (down to minigunner speed). It's hard to say if GDI would then rule the early early game with grens, though. (2 rax before ref, new meta xD).

 

 

Ob is fine, it's actually super expansive and also needs pretty much it's own adv power to run, making it over 2000 to make... and if you snipe out some power, then it's buggered. It's also weak enough that you can snipe it with grens etc

Turret, on the other hand. WOW. 600 for a gun more powerful than a medium tank, repairable... even troops take too long to take it out, so it just shuts you down. Should be 800-1000. That should pretty much fix it.

 

Apaches... WOW. Yeah, they're insane. I will say, though, that they are awesome for 2 reasons that don't get said enough.

1. GDI's LACK of AA. They need to be able to make something strait away, from the weapons factory, which has heavy armor and fires rockets (probably 2 of the AP ones). As it stands, they seem to not really have anything, unless they go overboard on Adv Guard/Rocket men. You're never going to really be able to pump out enough mammoths to do the job.

2. They just keep firing!! :o    The Orca actually ALSO pumps out a lot of damage, it basically has the same attack as a stealth tank. The difference is that the Orca does some damage... then it flies home because it's out of ammo. If it had a lot less ammunition, then it'd really not be so bad. The other way to nerf it's damage would be to remove "fires twice". But then it would fire for twice as long... haha

 

 

Weapons factory: Why is it made of cardboard!?

Having the airstrip as heavy and the WF as light is interesting... what's not so interesting is 3 bikes killing your weapons factory, when you've just taken out the other 10 buggies/bikes that were rushing it. Yeah, a bit of HP would be nice, just a bit, haha.

 

Comparing the guard tower to the turret surely makes be realise how damn good turrets are. Would be nice to see some more HP on the guard tower or maybe make it cheaper. It's gun is actually pretty strong, though.

I have no issue with ADV guard, except to say that turrets are better, SO much better.

 

 

Humvees are great, IMO, in that they give you a bit of mobility to hold back attacks. It needs to be noted that they're not really for going into combat with by themselves (which is the temptation, because they so much faster than anything else GDI has). If you use them to patrol your base and intercept attacks, and then just produce grens at any area where you're being pressured, they're great defensively. If you use a small number of them to snipe inc flamer troops from killing your grens in the early-mid game, they're great. The only thing I can say, is that, if a Nod player snipes them... you're then without defence for you infantry, and then the grens die and then the tanks die......

Maybe a little more HP to help them survive. But I still think that the idea of the balance between buggy/hummer is interesting. I don't think the units that are close like these should looked at and compared in a "Hey, that's not fair" way, instead, the units should be viewed in how they match up as a TEAM of units. What is actually used to beat what, rather than how similar units are not similar in price.

 

 

Rocket Launcher: For sure needs to be changed in tech AND price, and maybe HP, or even armour.

An obvious change to it, which would totally take it from being near useless to quite scarey for Nod to take on, would be to give it heavy amour. It'd make buggies almost useless against, it, bikes weapon effective, BUT range/armour not effective, it'd shut down inc flamer troops and help give grens protecting it a shield so that bikes can't snipe it. The counter to grens + MRLS would be LIGHT TANKS!!!!

However, even just an HP/cost buff ect would help a lot.

 

 

I spoke about orca before, but again, their main use is in GDI v GDI where they are AMAZING, (GDI, once again, low AA units). But the biggest issue is simply high bike count. Give GDI a proper bike counter/better way to deal with light vehicles, and the meta may change enough to see some use out of them.

 

 

BALANCE IN GENERAL!!! 

Personally, while I'm well aware of balance issues, I don't want to change anything in the main download of the original game. I think that all balance tweaks/changes should be mods. Even the change in the cargo plane, although I do agree with the change as a fix to balance issues, is once that makes me bite my lip a little.

I pose these questions:

-At what point are we satisfied?

-At what point is it no longer TD and in fact some sort of mod/Frankenstein?

Technically speaking, with the changes made to resolution, hotkeys, the cargo plane, extra cncnet features (separate heli, redeploy MCV), infinite money, even custom maps, we are already not playing TD... technically.

Well, that's if you think of it from the perspective that the game designers never released this stuff

 

Community:

I agree that the community is, mostly, great

We have people of all skill levels, playing and enjoying the game. Our player base seems to be slowly growing and our content creators enjoy releasing things for the game for people to enjoy and also to enhance the whole game for people. From our CnCnet team to our mappers and we even have an amazing TD mod up and coming from Kilk.

 

There is no no.1 player, that's absolutely true. There never was. I love seeing people's strengths and weaknesses. It's such a range of skills that the game requires for a player to be good, that seeing each person's skills/weaknesses is a real pleasure and a puzzle and effort to learn to exploit in order to win. It's enjoyable both as competition and admiration of those playing.

 

For sure, we have people of all sorts of skill levels and it's often clear when someone is completely outside someone else's skill, but anyone who watches E-sports will know that while players are sometimes seen as above others, it certainly doesn't mean that they'll win every game, and someone who comes quite low in a tournament may come through to win another.

We don't have a ladder, and even if we did, that isn't even the true purpose IN a ladder.

 

 

Chem:

I was wondering when this was going to be strait up addressed. I know that personally I'm really quite tolerant of people, as I look at people with understanding eyes that there maybe issues that someone has/has gone through which has led to them being who they are today. For all I know, this person may have some serious mental disorder, been abused in some way or is even STILL being abused in their life. They may be stressed or damaged.

 

However...

Tolerance does NOT mean; everyone gets to be a part, no matter what.

Tolerance means; everyone gets a chance to be a part, no matter what.

 

Even if it's true that this person's behaviour is caused by some issue, that doesn't mean that other people should be forced to deal with it, while they're just trying to enjoy the community or play games.

If ANY person is destructive and cannot control themselves, even after obvious signs that their behaviour is unacceptable; via bans/locking of multiple threads for offensive reasons, then they may not be fit to be a part of the community.

 

This is not about attacking individuals over their behaviour, nor is it about picking and choosing our players, this is about creating an environment for people to come and enjoy the community and the games.

 

My suggestion for dealing with the appropriately would be to create a full code of conduct, which I'd be happy to help write (I'm a part of the youth Scouting organisation, which deals with such situations regularly. We can even base it off of official clauses in Scouting documents, if you'd like).

That way, it would be clear what you need to be to be a part of the community, it'd be clear how much leniency there is (how many times you would be banned etc how many "strikes" until you're out). And there would be no arguments over who does or does not get to stay.

 

 

  -Liam

[FunkyFr3sh]

too long didn't read

[AchromicWhite]

Read the last part, then.

Below where he writes "Community" in red, and the last part just below that. I'd also appreciate you reading my reply on it, too. Just the part on community and below. Thank you.

[X3M]

too long didn't read

 

You should. It is really worthwhile.

 

Further, I too agree with everything.

But instead of nerving NOD, how about giving GDI some extra instead?

My suggestion for the MRLS remains, +1 or +2 range. Range does so much for support units. Instead of the Adv. Comm Centre, just the regular Comm Centre.

Humm-vee's should have more health, that's it. Instead of +7%, how about + 67%? Makes them "equal" to buggies, but meatier.

 

The difference in both Air units is ridiculous. But compared to Red Alert, they still do a decent job though.

 

The only nerving for NOD:

My suggestion for the Flame based units, simply remove the chain reaction mechanism. And use a splash damage effect instead.

 

[cn2mc]

This topic again? Come on, guys! The balance is fine and has been for 20 years, so I won't go into detail (furthermore, I've done that, at length, in the other dozen or so topics about this). Like White said, it's the current popular maps that are really Nod-happy. And I think it's not so much about their openness, but more about the fact that tib is all over and Nod doesn't have to really expand to get it. GDI has many ways to cripple Nod or at least defend against them early on, even on classic open maps like GA, Nowhere to hide, etc. But that's because tib there is in patches and to get it you have to constantly spider from one to the other. That way Nod stretches while GDI's expand towards them basically limits the range of their light units forcing them to engage defensively. This counter can't be done on most of the maps that are played now, because of too much tiberium and silly layouts.

 

Looking at this from a distence, I'd like to be able to target air units, or at least put them on guard. That way Nod'll think twice beore sending in apachesif you have an orca or two in your base.

 

The real balance issues besides maps, I believe, are South advantage and different resolutions. The latter being mostly irrelevant, unless we're playing tourney/ladder. But still, when I play at 640x400, I can actually gauge if my opponent is playing hi-res by the speed of his reactions to my surprize attacks, etc. It is quite a huge advantage.

 

Another big issue, not to do with balance but with the community, is player mentality. Not in the sense that some people will act too cocky like chem or whatnot (who, I sincerely hope, soon finds something to boost his confidence IRL), but there are many players, a lot of them good too, who will dodge games or pretend to be AFK when a better player joins. Or they'll wait around for half an hour for their game to fill up, so they don't have to go head to head with a pro. So then, instead of 4-5 players having a dozen short and to-the-point 1v1 games in that half-hour, you have 4-5 guys waiting around for ages for a FFA and then half of them get raped right at the start... This possibly irks me the most about TD. Many players are actually afraid of competition.

 

[AchromicWhite]

It can be daunting to go up against someone tough, and I used to quite like big games over small 1v1s.

The main reason I got lots of 1v1 practice, back in the day, is that there was simply so few players online that I had no other choice. If I wanted to play C&C, and I did, then that's what I had to do.

It's better that we have people who simply play the game and enjoy it, rather than play by how we want them too. It's taken me years, literally years, to learn this game, and while it's probably easier now, than it ever was before, to learn the game, there's still a HUGE lack of tutorial information out there.

 

Our issue about the community, well, basically Chem, is not to do with the games at all, but simply the attitude and more importantly, a lack of respect for people.

[cn2mc]

That's my point though. Playing several 1v1 games against someone good will maybe hurt your ego, but it will increase your skills much more than a clusterfuck FFA that you might just win on a stroke of turtle's luck.

[AchromicWhite]

Oh, for sure. But is that a huge community issue?

Honestly, if you want to do something positive about that situation, make tutorial content for people

That's the real way to deal with any issue. And, it's not even that much of an issue. Heck, if people want to mess around with Cap the Flag, I don't care, go have fun.

 

I did actually used to think more along the lines that you are now... then I started playing SCII. It's, sadly, a dying community. One of the biggest things I discovered about what SCII is suffering so much more than SC:BW is that the game is almost all about ladder.

Competitive play is something that can be really hard and frustrating. Allowing people to play what is comfortable for them helps to keep the game alive.

I think the one thing that might help quite a bit would be to make more massive maps that are more balanced (not so much tib, and maybe a bit more terrain around the place to split up battles).

That way, people can properly practice engagements and actually grow some confidence.

 

Create content to help that, rather than blaming the players.

[cn2mc]

Umm, no offence, but strawman much? I blame noone. I do create both maps and tutorial content, quite a lot of it. I will always gladly help anybody who asks for tips and tactics, I was even the one who first linked this forum to the best strategy resource there is for TD, MacMark's old page, which covers 99% of all builds, tactics, exploits, etc. (so it's also not true that there are no guides for TD). Maybe when I finally have more time and manage to get some software to properly record in the res I play in, I'll make videos of some of the finer points of unit control, etc.

 

Yes, people bunching up for FFA is not really a huge problem, but it kind of limits play-time for everybody involved and that's my real issue. Many people, few games.

[AchromicWhite]

My point is that, pushing people to play a certain way may not result in what you want/think it will.

Your ideas are a bit backwards, though: "limits play-time for everybody involved". Nope, same time playing, just few games running.

"Many people, few games." far more accurate, though still beyond the point.

 

One of the things I'd like to do would be to cast games for people. Let them and their friends play and have a top player casting the game. There'd be laughs, for sure, but that'd be part of the fun.

Talking about how certain things are good ideas and other things, not so much. Letting the players see their mistakes and achievements in a fun way that gets shown off.

If people get into the spirit of it, it could get people wanting to play 1v1s. Even at lower levels.

 

Of course, we need a proper spectator mode, first.

[cn2mc]

"limits play-time for everybody involved". Nope.

 

Actually... Yep. Let's look at how most FFA games go.

First, you have players sitting around, waiting for the game to fill up. No playing done here for a while.

Then you have some guys getting wiped out in horrendous ways in the first few minutes of the game. No more playing for them, especially if they share the host's mentality and stick around and/or wait for the others to finish before starting a new game.

More players also very often means more lag and connection troubles. Even less playing for everybody now. And this is just the 'time' aspect of things. Not even getting deeper into the 'skill' and 'frustration' aspects yet. My 'ideas' might seem backwards to you, but my observations and my reasoning are pretty straightforward and easy to agree with, no?

 

Realize, I'm not forcing anybody to play like "I want them to play". I'm exposing what I believe to be a community issue in a thread that serves this very purpose. And I believe it's a community issue not just because I get less games because of it. I believe it's an issue since it generally slows down player development and it can also be really, really frustrating to people who just want to play a game in their spare 20 minutes. Not everyone can afford to lounge in chat the whole day, and from my point of view, not getting a game when you want one is much more frustrating than getting one and possibly getting beaten. I also believe anyone who thinks the opposite needs to find some nice singleplayer games and stick to them.

[MattAttack]

Wow, where to start.  I guess first of all, I'm perfectly happy with the way C&C is balanced and don't want to change anything.  Heh, I think part of me has spent soo much time getting used to c&c that I don't want to relearn it.  If I was in to that, I probably wouldn't be playing a 20-year old game.. lol  Also, I'm a purist at heart so I, too, even cringe a little bit at the alterations to the cargo plane.

 

Some very interesting points have been made here in regards to the balancing on the old WW maps compared to the tiberium-fests we have these days.  Makes me want to make an old WW-style map without a bunch of tib.  Too bad few will play it since I think a lot of the newer players seem to think more tib=better, more fun game.  I'm pretty sure I used to think that.  I just wish more people would play both sides, (instead of always being Nod)

 

I have always believed the best way to keep TD alive is to be friendly, positive and contribute as much as possible to the community-- I personally don't care who is the best and I don't even have the time to do my "push-ups" to be a serious contender anyways.  (Although it was a goal of mine in the beginning to beat Lovehandles-- lol)

 

I really like White's suggestion about spectating and commentating on others playing-- again, I wish I had the time to do it these days.  Although I think you guys are a bit more qualified to comment on the rights/wrongs of the players.  I don't think a "spectator mode" is really necessary to make that happen either.  A third person on the map --whether they resign or not-- leads to more interesting start positions anyways. 

 

And for negative douche-trolls?  I don't know... All I can do is try to overcome their effect by being 3x as positive as they are negative.  And when in doubt ignore, ignore ignore....

[X3M]

So, the imba feeling that new players get with NOD vs GDI is because of maps? I didn't think of it that way. But it is true that in RTS, the income speed is also of importance on balance. I even did a little study on this effect some years ago.

 

Also game speed is of importance. Most play at the maximum speed. But I think the game suffers from this. I mean, NOD is faster, thus when they attack. At speed 7, they do 7 shots, at speed 5, they do 5 shots. Before another player reacts. Eventually, only preventing such a rush would be the only option for players. Which is something new players can't do at all yet.

 

In that case. We also might wonder why the maps are filled with tiberium. It is because the growth is so very low. Original, the balance would be at around 2 harvesters. Then maps have to be designed this way again. The only suggestion that remains now would be that the growth of tiberium is increased to accommodate these 2 harvesters. Or a map is designed where each player has like 9 blossom trees within the vicinity.

 

As for gameplay. Some people expect every one to follow their lead. I say, play what you want and how you want it. That was the great success of SC/BW back in the old days. If there are players that do FFA, let them. They are having fun that way.

And most players play, to have fun, not skill

 

If I ever spot someone doing sim-base, I will let them. When they are finished, there is a new challenge awaiting for me. And that too can be fun.

 

TD was never meant to be a rushing game. But a tactical game instead. So Matt, I would love it to see you making an old WW map. I have seen your work lately and is impressive.

(Preferably with 2 to 4 players, all on the right side of the map)

[ore_truck]

This game is incredible and we also have such a wonderful community. About those rants, I tend to agree on the MLRS needs a slight buff (they are powerful and high range, and that's all). They were meant to act as medium tank supports and compliment their weaknesses but wasn't implemented well since most people just forget about building them.

 

As for the the SSM launcher part, those things are not too bad. The only reason why it looked powerful is because of the bikes and buggies, otherwise SSM launchers are countered easily, unless you are turtling.

 

About chem: He needs a buff, I don't mind them being high tech but give them something more than just a slight improvement of the flame trooper for a high tier unit.

 

Other C&C units are fine to me, even the old cargo plane. And I'm proud to be a player of this game.

[TaxOwlbear]

Everyone knows the power these guys have. Any group of infantry is at risk whenever these guys are around, if they get close they will ejaculate their 5000 tonnes of "fuck you" all over your infantry in a 1-tile radius, and render them pretty much useless.

Saved for later use.

[AchromicWhite]

infantry can dodge SSM shots, btw.

[Nyerguds]

The thing TaxOwlbear quoted was about flame infantry, though, not SSMs

[AchromicWhite]

Oh right. GDI can actually deal with flame infantry, you just have to have some hummers to snipe them. It's important to really have at LEAST two hummers at all times, and scout ahead so that you don't get caught off guard by a flamer popping out of the shroud.

 

It's when you have to take down a hand of Nod, THEN it's kinda tricky turrets make that situation even stickier.

[Guest ehy]

-

[Ferret]

Sup. I stumbled across this thread, and I thought after reading some responses; I'd give some thoughts of my own as well. I'll touch on some of the things that I think are important.

 

I think a lot of problems with Tiberian Dawn (and plenty of other Command & Conquer games, RA, TS, etc) is that there's a lot of asymmetrical balance that wasn't implemented in a way that doesn't make sense in terms of fairness, strategy, or fun.

 

Before I start, let's bring it down to what I believe an RTS game is all about. Remember, this is not factual, but my own opinion. Think of it like a game chess. You have game pieces on a game board, which the objective is to destroy the other player or to put them into check mate. Although the objective is very simple, the interaction to get that objective completed is where the strategy, complexity, and all sorts of good stuff comes into play.

 

I think a good way to talk about what I mean is a siege unit. I think a good way of describing a siege unit in Command & Conquer is the SSM. The SSM is a ground vehicle which is relatively cheap, has low health, has a very high damage burst AOE weapon with plenty of range. If I go to move this unit onto the map to take control of a certain area, my opponent has to back off and let me have the ground that I decided to take, or to fight back to contend the area. Or simply go somewhere else and attack a different area, or maybe put better defenses up near the area that has been contested by me. I have this unit in this square on the map, this is now my area and you can't do anything about it unless you fight back, or find a different thing to do. Is there a way for, in this case, GDI to contend with this unit in a fair way? No. There is no way to interact with this unit in an efficient or effective manner. Maybe Orcas, but is that realistic to say with all of the Recon Bikes that are made in this game in a GDI vs. Nod game. There is no way to deal with the unit fairly, strategically, or in a fun way.

 

How does that relate to chess anyway? I move a certain game piece onto a square on the game board and my game piece has special characteristics or ways of manipulating the game board.  In terms of unit interaction, Nod players have a Knight which can attack diagonally. GDI players do not. They simply have Pawns, they don't have Castles either which can attack back, but in a different way, but they simply have no way of dealing with it effectively. Although in chess, owning certain parts of the game board doesn't necessarily give one player an advantage or the other. In most RTS games, or Command & Conquer in this case, owning a certain part of the map, or game board does give a player an advantage whether you've thought about it or not. It could be terrain features or an economic advantage.

 

Command & Conquer fails to do this in my eyes, which is why I haven't been playing the game at all. This is the reason why Tiberian Alert was made. Although it was handed to someone else for a little, it's not in perfect condition right now. From the looks of it, it seems people are starting to realize that there is in fact a problem with the game that makes the asymmetrical balance suck. Fairness is lacking, strategy is lacking, and most importantly, fun is lacking.

 

There is some more things I can touch on, but I can't think of everything at the moment.

[AchromicWhite]

Yeah. I think that these are really good points. I think I'd said before that if the recon bike wasn't AA, it would fix quite a few problems. The turrets, for example, would also be able to be dealt with more effectively with Orca.

 

I also agree with Ehy, and had stated before, that I think that all balance changes should be left to mods.

 

I enjoy the game, and often enjoy the challenge of playing as GDI against Nod. But it is surely far more difficult.

[cn2mc]

Even if the gameplay is more limited than in Red Alert...

It's not.

[AchromicWhite]

Yeah, I certainly don't feel as limited as I do in RA1.

For sure, some unit combinations are stronger than others, but everything's pretty viable, and you can really get an edge by making like a couple of a different unit.

[Myg]

So, you finally broke; eh Jacko?

 

Shame.

 

We really need to cut out the crap maps from circulation and lock in the ones that actually allow for more diversity (ones that arn't designed for instant gratification). That would be a start.