The Red Alert 2 balance suggestion thread (Made for funsies)

[SiRaLeX]

To Adam, this is tony so this is a complete debate and i love you <3 but....

 

Allied is better than Soviet in my opinion, especially in any "long" games - 8mins+

 

I am so glad that after 4 pages this is now finally a "complete debate"! Amen.

 

I rest my case, a1nthony.

 

[a1nthony]

To Adam, this is tony so this is a complete debate and i love you <3 but....

 

Allied is better than Soviet in my opinion, especially in any "long" games - 8mins+

 

I am so glad that after 4 pages this is now finally a "complete debate"! Amen.

 

I rest my case, a1nthony.

 

Your case isnt settled because my original arguement was Yuri is OP.

 

What does an allied arguement have to do with that? Allies are overpowered?  I can just engi rush and alt every game,  then what? You gonna call me lame? And still get the big L on your record almost everygame.

 

We can be real here. The only reason u Think allies are so good, is because there are rules "no engi eat, cant use engineers, no alt" but yet ill rest my case with this.

 

Sovs have more rank1s then allies ever have/will GG.

GG GG GG GG

 

Edit: by complete debate i meant no hard feelings, not this debate is over, another wrong assumption by you, not surprised

[SiRaLeX]

Your case isnt settled because my original arguement was Yuri is OP.

 

And I told you the way it is.

 

Allied > Yuri > Soviet

 

 

What does an allied arguement have to do with that? Allies are overpowered?  I can just engi rush and alt every game,  then what? You gonna call me lame?

 

Try it, son. And no, I promise, I won't call you "lame".    I'll just note that "alting" is considered cheating on XWIS.

 

 

And still get the big L on your record almost everygame.

 

Oh dear, Anthony... I hate being a dick, but I'm not the one with more or as many of these so called "big L"'s on my record as my big W's.

 

You: http://xwis.net/ra2/pl/a1nthony/

Me: http://xwis.net/ra2/pl/siralex/

 

Quite a bit of a difference right there and I didn't play a single game in the past 3 or 4 months except for the last week.

 

 

Edit: by complete debate i meant no hard feelings, not this debate is over, another wrong assumption by you, not surprised

 

I'm not assuming anything. My hope for you actually being capable of having a debate is long gone. That's why I used quotes around that phrase. 

 

 

[a1nthony]

Idk why u keep bringing my stats up, not only do i play everyones maps (i let them pick them all) but half of the maps i dont even know/ havent played  but i dont care because i barely play... before the end of last month i havent played in a year+ and i still havent played 100 games.. so lets set this up then u can be alloes ill be sovs we will do firet to 5 wins and i get to pick every map, just like i let everyone do to me. And then we'll see how good you are, deal?

 

Also sovs and yuri have more rank 1 then allies do on both games so... youre wrong.

[XXxPrePxX]

After careful consideration, there is too many logical fallacies in the past few posts for me to even consider wasting more than 5 minutes in a reply. However, I did want to point out one blatant error and a few other comments.

 

Here's a game of me and Gino (two allied players) vs Josh and Adam (two soviet players) with SUPERWEAPONS turned ON: http://xwis.net/ra2/games/10560/

 

By your guys logic the two Soviet players should have smoked us pretty easily. Well if you think that, then you couldn't be more wrong. I was red on the top left, BTW. 

 

My opponent never even got to use his Nuclear Missile whereas I used my Weather Storm twice. Surprise, surprise, two Chronoshifted Prism Tanks behind his Nuclear Missile while distracting the opponent and applying Weather Storm on his base took care of it. Dayum!!! Chronosphere is soooo weak!!!

 

This game has nothing to do with what I stated.

1. It is a 2on2 match.

2. It is on a created map that is larger and more expansive (and more easily obtainable resources) than just about every westwood original map.

3. I never made the claim that it does not happen. It certainly can happen. It's just extremely rare, and in my case, has just about never happened.

 

You are far too smart to continue to produce logical fallacies over and over throughout this thread, so I am going to assume you are trolling and not waste my time. The empirical fact is that a significant amount of rank 1's are soviet/yuri focused. For someone who loves to 'go to the stats' as you've done several times in this thread to justify your statements, you must accept that.

 

If anyone begs to differ - i challenge you to 1v1 games, AvS, any map, best of 15, we will record and post all - even live stream if necessary - and see who prevails. (every map has to be different and include 1v1 2v2 3v3 4v4 sized maps)

 

Is it fair for me to set up a challenge in the lobby with the claim that soviets are best, beat 10 newbs, and then conclude that Soviets are the most overpowered team? That's not how this works. You can't open a challenge to make your claim any more true. There's years of statistics here.

 

How is Weather Storm useless?

 

Weather storm in comparision to the nuclear missle and psychic dominator. The weather storm is the slowest of the three as when it hits, it sends lightning bolts instead of an instant attack as the other two. This allows the player to use force field much easier. The weather storm leaves no after effect like the nuclear missle, and it has no special bonus like the dominator does as the dominator takes over the enemies units in a small range. Therefore Nuclear missle and dominator are much, much preferred options.

 

You contradict yourself BIGTIME.

 

You are right, there was a contradiction there. What I meant was that, in a situation that a player does obtain a chronosphere and the necessary time to build an army, a chronosphere attack can be deadly. There's no doubt about it. The problem is, that will never happen vs a good soviet player in a 1on1 on any normal map.

 

 

 

Oh God, I've spent too much time at this. I hate this game.

 

[ore_truck]

Weather storm clouds appear faster than nuke and can't be pin pointed by psychic radar. And any player opposing the weather user will have radar blackout. It also has higher blast radius rather than overkilling at a smaller area of effect. I don't know, maybe the lightning strikes are just random (haven't played with Allies superweapons for quite a while).

[a1nthony]

Allied is better than Soviet in my opinion, especially in any "long" games - 8mins+

 

If anyone begs to differ - i challenge you to 1v1 games, AvS, any map, best of 15, we will record and post all - even live stream if necessary - and see who prevails. (every map has to be different and include 1v1 2v2 3v3 4v4 sized maps)

 

 

Anyone going to step up?

 

I will also throw this out to Ra2 OR Yuris games.

 

i need to get on form for the tournament, beating a WEAK side will be a good warm up

 

you have me on facebook!

 

[SiRaLeX]

Weather storm clouds appear faster than nuke and can't be pin pointed by psychic radar. And any player opposing the weather user will have radar blackout. It also has higher blast radius rather than overkilling at a smaller area of effect. I don't know, maybe the lightning strikes are just random (haven't played with Allies superweapons for quite a while).

 

Exactly. The lightning strikes aren't exactly random. They strike tall and expensive buildings and take out Battle Labs, Radar Towers, War Factories and Power Plants as well as metal vehicles, frying Infantry standing near by in large groups. Very rarely lightning bolts hit the ground, when there's nothing more to level.

 

When a Nuclear Missile is announced through the siren, players have plenty of time to move their tanks and sell expensive buildings. Not so much with the Weather Storm. When the Weather Storm hits you're basically powerless, pretty much as in real life.

 

 

 

[a1nthony]

Weather storm clouds appear faster than nuke and can't be pin pointed by psychic radar. And any player opposing the weather user will have radar blackout. It also has higher blast radius rather than overkilling at a smaller area of effect. I don't know, maybe the lightning strikes are just random (haven't played with Allies superweapons for quite a while).

 

Exactly. The lightning strikes aren't exactly random. They strike tall and expensive buildings and take out Battle Labs, Radar Towers, War Factories and Power Plants as well as metal vehicles, frying Infantry standing near by in large groups. Very rarely lightning bolts hit the ground, when there's nothing more to level.

 

When a Nuclear Missile is announced through the siren, players have plenty of time to move their tanks and sell expensive buildings. Not so much with the Weather Storm. When the Weather Storm hits you're basically powerless, pretty much as in real life.

 

Weather storm isnt bad imo.

 

Also with a nuke you can tell where it goes and in YR you can use something called a force shield, which makes u lose power but gives u a wide ranged iron curtain on your buildings...

Dont say i never taught you anything

[SiRaLeX]

Weather storm isnt bad imo.

 

Also with a nuke you can tell where it goes and in YR you can use something called a force shield, which makes u lose power but gives u a wide ranged iron curtain on your buildings...

 

Please tell that to "XXxPrePxX":

 

The chronosphere is the second weakest super weapon out of the 6. The only super weapon weaker is the other allied super weapon, the weather storm.

 

I mean, Jesus Fucking Christ. Why am I even replying to morons like you two?

 

 

Dont say i never taught you anything

 

Wait, what? When did you ever teach me anyhting? It's the other way around, son.

 

 

 

[sunny]

Allies are the strongest side in the game with the most powerful and versatile units. Pro allied should beat pro sov. Sovs have more rank 1's but that's because they're much easier to use. Look at the statistics, sovs have the most rank 1's followed by yuris then allies. On YR, you got to build a chronosphere for a counter attack against the iron curtain and weather storm to counter the nuke in a long game- unless you manage to cripple the sov player with a seal/ rocky/ tank distraction early on or you significantly out-tank and have control of the map. The bigger the map the better it is for allies because there's less chance of getting harassed early.

When I watched dean play on xwis he was one of the top allied players of the time and this guy would always build a chronosphere against any side and player unless rushed. While it's true chronosphere is difficult to use correctly and has a high fail rate if units keep moving, you can still teleport prism anywhere in the base and dish out a high level of damage later on in the game. Allies have to defend a lot, but that's how you buy time to get enough pure mirage, BF, and prism to win.

Sure sovs have Ic and it is powerful indeed, but it's not much against a smart allied player who probably won't let you that close to his base. Lab can also be taken out by jets delaying the iron and buying even more time to mass units and use the chrono.

 

Winning is also relative to the player skill level and the map. Not many people are eager to battle a soviet player on dune patrol or hail mary using allies. Sovs and yuri can deal lots of damage early on (rhino, desos, magnetron) that's why nobody really wants to use allies on these smaller maps because it makes the game twice as hard.

 

What prep said is true that not many allied players can last to the point where they can use a chrono. Usually there's a 3 WF press or fast tech going on and they simply lack the know how and experience to counter an early rush. You gotta use guardian gi's + pills and griz or 2-3 ggi ifvs and grizzlies. Place gi's as foddor all around your base and infront of your tanks to buy time if you're USA. If they sell MCV you gotta stop building and only build griz, and gi's or dogs. Mostly all maps you need to tech fast on 2-4 miner depending on whether or not the map has gems and get mirage + BF because thats really the only thing that works on YR, where tech is crucial to winning.

 

You'll find on dune, blood feud and such maps grizzlies suck at stopping rushes. GGi ifvs are superior because you could ctrl shift them away from rhinos and the missiles target them at the same time...it's easy to get an elite that way with good micro but if you make a mistake you're screwed...show me one good allied player that can stop a true sov rush on dune with just grizzlies, can anyone?

[SiRaLeX]

show me one good allied player that can stop a true sov rush on dune with just grizzlies, can anyone?

 

That's not the point. To stop a rush you have to place Sentry Guns / Pill Boxes.

 

It doesn't matter if you have Grizzly Tanks or Rhino Tanks (they're equal for the price) but for stopping a "true" rush you will still need to place down at least 1 base defence.

 

Other than that, good post though! 

 

 

 

Uh, and BTW I was RaNk #2 last month on XWIS RA2 (unfortunately RaNk #1 was a bailer who pushed to get there): http://xwis.net/ra2/prev/pl/siralex/

 

Out of 70 games I've had the pleasure of only versing The Allied Faction 8 times.

It's kind of a common courtesy thing to battle games out using the same faction.

And Soviet takes the most skill to battle with tanks, because that's all they have. 

 

[Grant]

In theory we could add an option in the host settings for a community style patch if there's demand for it, though the community would have to vote on a group of players who would handle the changes (people who have a lot of knowledge of the game - probably top xwis players I would imagine).

 

 

 

 

[sunny]

show me one good allied player that can stop a true sov rush on dune with just grizzlies, can anyone?

 

That's not the point. To stop a rush you have to place Sentry Guns / Pill Boxes.

 

It doesn't matter if you have Grizzly Tanks or Rhino Tanks (they're equal for the price) but for stopping a "true" rush you will still need to place down at least 1 base defence.

 

Other than that, good post though! 

 

 

 

Uh, and BTW I was RaNk #2 last month on XWIS RA2 (unfortunately RaNk #1 was a bailer who pushed to get there): http://xwis.net/ra2/prev/pl/siralex/

 

Out of 70 games I've had the pleasure of only versing The Allied Faction 8 times.

It's kind of a common courtesy thing to battle games out using the same faction.

And Soviet takes the most skill to battle with tanks, because that's all they have. 

 

yes of course one would need lots of pillboxes to stop a rush on a small map, i dont know if you heard of ir0nclad, he was warcraft 3 world champion 02-03  when the game was in its prime, he played allied on YR the first couple years when it was released and had the most unique builds and best micromangment. He was known to go an unusually high amount of miners from WF in order to build quick lab even on small maps, but all he used early on were just ggi IFVs and pillboxes to distract rhino turrets...players would keep attacking him but couldn't capitalize because his ggi ifv micro was so exceptional rhinos would keep getting owned and damaged. Ironically this tactic worked better on smaller maps than larger ones but I've never seen anyone pull it off. I did a few times myself but only if I controlled ggi ifvs perfectly without misclicks and placed pillboxes in the right spots.

 

Allies are about defending early on till you can tech, using fodder for grizzlies until you get lab. The most common are paras + pillboxes. Allied tanks need equal skill and many times even more because grizz are weaker early on, they're more effective when you have pills + foddor and sometime ggi ifv and a few rocketeers. Say you're playing the map heck freezes and the sov gets middle, you're going to have to be extra careful to not lose many units (griz, mirage, bf) early on because sov's going to heavily outtank you fast due to mining the gems. Many games can be lost with a misclick or forgetting to place a sentry/ pill at the right time.

[SiRaLeX]

Say you're playing the map heck freezes and the sov gets middle, you're going to have to be extra careful to not lose many units (griz, mirage, bf) early on because sov's going to heavily outtank you fast due to mining the gems.

 

It doesn't really matter that much which faction gets middle on Heck Freezes Over. It just boils down to gems being twice as valuable as normal ore, thus doubling income.

 

If the Allied players mines middle in Heck Freezes Over then what should the Soviet do? No amount of skill or "careful" will save the Soviet here. He should just give up because the game's over at this point.

 

 

 

[sunny]

Say you're playing the map heck freezes and the sov gets middle, you're going to have to be extra careful to not lose many units (griz, mirage, bf) early on because sov's going to heavily outtank you fast due to mining the gems.

 

It doesn't really matter that much which faction gets middle on Heck Freezes Over. It just boils down to gems being twice as valuable as normal ore, thus doubling income.

 

If the Allied players mines middle in Heck Freezes Over then what should the Soviet do? No amount of skill or "careful" will save the Soviet here. He should just give up because the game's over at this point.

 

On yuris sov can move to center as well and stretch out battle bunkers and sentries as well

[SiRaLeX]

Well yeah, Battle Bunkers. What if France moves to middle on Heck Freezes Over? The whole Allied faction is a single massive Battle Bunker.

 

 

 

[sunny]

Well yeah, Battle Bunkers. What if France moves to middle on Heck Freezes Over? The whole Allied faction is a single massive Battle Bunker.

 

yeah if you're playing 1v1 vs. france on heck as those QQ players, always expect them to move to gems because that gives france a huge economical adv for building grand cannons. Hence why sov should move to mid too early on but I guess its easier to stop on yuris.

 

p.s if you make a wall infront of a battle bunker infantry or sentry can't damage it and the bunker still works

[SiRaLeX]

Walls are way under used in RA2/YR.

 

Only at the very top they reappear in high skill level play. They are very useful for protecting buildings such as Iron Curtain or Nuclear Power Plant.

 

That being said, you can probably also wall a Battle Fortress without adverse effects on its operation as well as Prism Tanks and Towers.

 

 

[sunny]

Walls are way under used in RA2/YR.

 

Only at the very top they reappear in high skill level play. They are very useful for protecting buildings such as Iron Curtain or Nuclear Power Plant.

 

That being said, you can probably also wall a Battle Fortress without adverse effects on its operation as well as Prism Tanks and Towers.

 

one should always wall the chrono, it's more important than the IC because the countdown is 6:00 and if you have rebuild you're at a big disadvantage.

[SiRaLeX]

I've never seen anyone else but me and Marko use walls in RA2.

 

 

[Adam]

In theory we could add an option in the host settings for a community style patch if there's demand for it, though the community would have to vote on a group of players who would handle the changes (people who have a lot of knowledge of the game - probably top xwis players I would imagine).

 

Sounds good, as there is always room for improvement / patches /options  !

[sunny]

I've never seen anyone else but me and Marko use walls in RA2.

 

I've been using them for years if I see someone rushing, sending engi's or playing aggressive. It's kind of a waste if you don't need them though. Walling lab is useful as well, it has the same armor as a barracks it seems.

[Grant]

I've never seen anyone else but me and Marko use walls in RA2.

https://youtu.be/hJTPCJweyW8?t=2m 

[SiRaLeX]

https://youtu.be/hJTPCJweyW8?t=2m 

 

Well, that's Youri's Revanche.