25% faster Nod vehicle build speed..? WOW

[AchromicWhite]

EDIT!!!
This information is incorrect. For the full info, please visit my new thread:
https://forums.cncnet.org/topic/8015-build-speeds-for-structuresunits/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I've never heard anyone say this, and I'd love for Nyerguds to chime in here if he knew anything...
Let's get to the juicy stuff:
Almost all nod vehicles build 25% faster than all other units/structures, relative to their cost.

Vehicles that build 25% faster:
-Bike
-Light Tank
-Artillery
-Flame Tank
-Stealth Tank
-SSM

That is to say, a flame tank, being 25% faster, builds at the same speed as a turret, etc.

All infantry, flyers, and shared vehicles, such as the Harvester and APC are normal production speed, and just for inconsistency, the buggy is also normal production speed.

I personally suspect it was to do with WW trying to balance the fact that Nod vehicles take time to drop off, but I could be wrong.

How did we NOT know this?
Did anyone know?

My mind is blown...
Keep cool and have fun kiddos.

Edited January 6, 2018 by AchromicWhite

[AchromicWhite]

I also just spent some time trying to see if I could match the findings to any "unknown" variables:
http://nyerguds.arsaneus-design.com/cnc95upd/inirules/units.ini

No such luck. There doesn't seem to be any that match the pattern of; Nod only ground vehicles, excluding bggy.

[nariac]

You're right, it's to compensate for the time delay before the vehicle is delivered by the cargo plane.

[AchromicWhite]

7 hours ago, nariac said:

You're right, it's to compensate for the time delay before the vehicle is delivered by the cargo plane.

We know this for a fact?

Ultimately, it doesn't make sense, as you can start building the next vehicle while one's being dropped off, so you can stack the 25% increase, while the drop time of the plan doesn't stack up; it just offsets when the first vehicle, and therefor all vehicles actually drop in.

[BluySY]

Take it from a GDI and Nod player who has bin playing since the 90s,     Nod has all the advantages. GDI is good how ever if your up for a challenge. This is not fact how ever just the opinion of an old player.          

 

BluySY

[AchromicWhite]

37 minutes ago, BluySY said:

Take it from a GDI and Nod player who has bin playing since the 90s,     Nod has all the advantages. GDI is good how ever if your up for a challenge. This is not fact how ever just the opinion of an old player.          

 

BluySY

I agree. GDI has few advantages. This isn't really a balance thread, though; this is something that I literally noticed and was like; "is that stuff building faster?"
And then I tested it, and yes. I was right... and somehow we just didn't know for 20 years. It doesn't change the game that we know, it just gives us some info about perhaps 'why', in some cases...

However, it once again blows me away that the buggy, one of the units considered to be the most powerful, DOESN'T have this buff.
Yet, Artillery, Light Tank, Flame Tank, Stealth Tank, which are all considered somewhat average, DO in fact have this buff.
The only one that this seems to apply to as a potential balance issue is the Recon Bike.
Even the SSM, which is considered a good unit, it really barely applies to, as they're usually produced in a time where the game is starting to turtle up.

[ore_truck]

Buggy doesn't have the build-speed buff  possible because they knew it will clog up the plane drop queue if you have more than 1 airstrips as the unit already build quite fast, especially in the days where the cargo plane is slower.

Other units are GDI units too so I guess only Nod-exclusive vehicles should have this production buff.

[X3M]

Funny how you say, back in the days when the cargo plane was slower.

Does that mean that NOD has an extra advantage by the interference of cncnet?

[AchromicWhite]

1 hour ago, ore_truck said:

Buggy doesn't have the build-speed buff  possible because they knew it will clog up the plane drop queue if you have more than 1 airstrips as the unit already build quite fast, especially in the days where the cargo plane is slower.

Other units are GDI units too so I guess only Nod-exclusive vehicles should have this production buff.

That's a REALLY good point. That's far more likely to be the reason behind it. Good thinking.

 

27 minutes ago, X3M said:

Funny how you say, back in the days when the cargo plane was slower.

Does that mean that NOD has an extra advantage by the interference of cncnet?

If they're in the west, then I guess they do. It's better than it being slower.
Personally, I think it was a good fix. My only reasoning I ever had against it was that; "if we're willing to change this, where do we stop?"
And there have been some posts asking about changing balance... that type of things should be left to mods. The CnCNet project was always about bringing old school C&C back.

In saying that, technically, we have a different game, with things like customisable hotkeys and higher resolution (see more on the screen), but it's whatever at this point.

[X3M]

Keeping the game original is ok.

 

Having a mod version along side of it should also be ok.

Those who think that the balance should be different, should mod this themselves.
Maybe these "new" balanced could be added as a tick box too. I don't think the "original" advocates have problems with this, right?

---

Back to topic.
What I don''t understand is that they have chosen to increase build speed by 33%. Yet the plane arriving is a fixed time.
Having multiple airfields increases the build speed as much as Gdi has with factories. However, the arrival time remains a constant.

This means that when both sides have like 4 factories/airfields. Nod might already be at a disadvantage again? Even if it is by an unnoticeable margin. The argument that Nod has several dropping points and thus several airplanes coming in at the same time is valid. However, what if you need all units at one spot where the enemy attacks? And you have only 1 Airfield there? I think that Gdi has the advantage in that regard.

Or am I over thinking things?

 

[cn2mc]

Yes, Nod does get screwed like that, because ultimately WF gates opening and closing is quicker and more convenient than planes. Then there's the flawed primary strip logic where you can't always get the units to land where you want them to. Plus the disadvantage of actually giving away how much you build with planes flying overhead. And also, I'm pretty sure the sped-up plane only changes things as far as the delivery time of the first unit being built goes, or otherwise has negligible impact. It was sped up to remedy the 'ready' situation, where spamming Nods would need additional clicks to ship their units.

So yeah, Nod most probably need that production boost. In reality, they should be able to build everything at like buggy speed if they have the cash for it, it's a delivery after all. But then again - where does it stop, make the planes legit targets (cash back and all)?

[ore_truck]

5 hours ago, X3M said:

Funny how you say, back in the days when the cargo plane was slower.

Does that mean that NOD has an extra advantage by the interference of cncnet?

I believe it is done to make Nod vs Nod in left vs right more balance, not making GDI less powerful/Nod more powerful. But the East Nod player still has the advantage than the western nod guy but I think it's less noticeable.

[AchromicWhite]

43 minutes ago, ore_truck said:

I believe it is done to make Nod vs Nod in left vs right more balance, not making GDI less powerful/Nod more powerful. But the East Nod player still has the advantage than the western nod guy but I think it's less noticeable.

It was done to fix a bug. The bug can still sometimes happen, but it's a lot rarer.

 

1 hour ago, cn2mc said:

Yes, Nod does get screwed like that, because ultimately WF gates opening and closing is quicker and more convenient than planes. Then there's the flawed primary strip logic where you can't always get the units to land where you want them to. Plus the disadvantage of actually giving away how much you build with planes flying overhead. And also, I'm pretty sure the sped-up plane only changes things as far as the delivery time of the first unit being built goes, or otherwise has negligible impact. It was sped up to remedy the 'ready' situation, where spamming Nods would need additional clicks to ship their units.

So yeah, Nod most probably need that production boost. In reality, they should be able to build everything at like buggy speed if they have the cash for it, it's a delivery after all. But then again - where does it stop, make the planes legit targets (cash back and all)?

Yes, but you can start building another unit while the plane flies in (only the 'ready' bug was an issue... now that's mostly be resolved). I think you'll find that there's a good second that GDI cannot start making another vehicle when one finishes. So, other than the initial drop time for not, you might actually find GDI has the disadvantage.

 

 

1 hour ago, X3M said:

Keeping the game original is ok.

 

Having a mod version along side of it should also be ok.

Those who think that the balance should be different, should mod this themselves.
Maybe these "new" balanced could be added as a tick box too. I don't think the "original" advocates have problems with this, right?

 

---

Back to topic.
What I don''t understand is that they have chosen to increase build speed by 33%. Yet the plane arriving is a fixed time.
Having multiple airfields increases the build speed as much as Gdi has with factories. However, the arrival time remains a constant.

This means that when both sides have like 4 factories/airfields. Nod might already be at a disadvantage again? Even if it is by an unnoticeable margin. The argument that Nod has several dropping points and thus several airplanes coming in at the same time is valid. However, what if you need all units at one spot where the enemy attacks? And you have only 1 Airfield there? I think that Gdi has the advantage in that regard.

Or am I over thinking things?

 

The drop from the plane doesn't add to the build time, as you can start another vehicle while one's being dropped off. The biggest issue, as you point out, is multiple drop locations. This issue CAN also happen with War factories if you have enough of them. In fact, even the 'ready' bug can occur, to my knowledge.
And, it's 25%, not 33%. From what I can see. Both Lovehandles and Ferret seemed to agree that it looked like 25%, too.

[cn2mc]

3 hours ago, AchromicWhite said:

Yes, but you can start building another unit while the plane flies in (only the 'ready' bug was an issue... now that's mostly be resolved). I think you'll find that there's a good second that GDI cannot start making another vehicle when one finishes. So, other than the initial drop time for not, you might actually find GDI has the disadvantage.
 

I am very well aware of the 'ready' issue, it was me who suggested the speed upgrade for the plane to resolve it. Your second sentence does not follow. How exactly can't GDI start a new vehicle after building one? 

[X3M]

AchromicWhite.

-25% build time equals +33% build speed.

[AchromicWhite]

5 hours ago, cn2mc said:

I am very well aware of the 'ready' issue, it was me who suggested the speed upgrade for the plane to resolve it. Your second sentence does not follow. How exactly can't GDI start a new vehicle after building one? 

There's a bit where it just says "ready" for about a second, and you cannot make another unit until it goes back to normal.
To my knowledge, in the case of the airstrip, unless you've made 2 units really fast and hit the 'ready' bug, it just flickers, meaning you can start your next unit quicker.

[AchromicWhite]

The balance is the same as it's always been.

I'd honestly say that WW didn't really know what they were doing... this game was about the 3rd RTS ever released, and the first with asymmetric balance.
To my understanding, they just got mixes of units and pitched them against each other in head on battles. And that was the basis for their balance. Which could explain why fast units are maybe a bit under priced and especially why both flyers are particularly good vs structures (never tested vs structures). It might also explain why the speed of units seems to not come into price perhaps as much as it should, a buggy seem awesome for 300 while a rocket troop is awful for 300... but if you position rocket men well, they're good, and buggies are mostly great due to their speed (they feel more fair as they engage in big battles).

[X3M]

I think they knew exactly what they where doing.

They only made some mistakes imho.

 

Crushing infantry is the biggest in my eyes.

Which includes the rocket soldier.

[AchromicWhite]

Well.. I like to think they got it... but then I look at RA1 and wonder if it was all just luck. Because the balance is TERRIBLE in RA.

[dkeeton]

8 minutes ago, AchromicWhite said:

Well.. I like to think they got it... but then I look at RA1 and wonder if it was all just luck. Because the balance is TERRIBLE in RA.

Another factor that's not being discussed here nor in the other thread is that WW likely made the game to be played at 30fps on a max 640 pixel wide monitor. The low fps make reaction time gaps less important and so it would also make bikes less dominant. With low fps engineer saves become easier and early engineer attacks become harder execute.

Having a tiny screen resolution also changes how players choose their army size before attacking, I think Louis Castle talked about that being a factor in game design for cnc.

 

[AchromicWhite]

12 minutes ago, dkeeton said:

Another factor that's not being discussed here nor in the other thread is that WW likely made the game to be played at 30fps on a max 640 pixel wide monitor. The low fps make reaction time gaps less important and so it would also make bikes less dominant. With low fps engineer saves become easier and early engineer attacks become harder execute.

Having a tiny screen resolution also changes how players choose their army size before attacking, I think Louis Castle talked about that being a factor in game design for cnc.

 

I'd love to hear what they had to say about resolution. Especially because they actually changed the res between the dos and gold versions.

[dkeeton]

24 minutes ago, AchromicWhite said:

I'd love to hear what they had to say about resolution. Especially because they actually changed the res between the dos and gold versions.

, the guy has done lots of interviews and I don't remember which one he talks about resolution,  Just some google "Louis Castle interview" if you have a few hours to burn.

Joe Bostic is the other main guy from WW: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/19epje/i_am_joe_bostic_22_year_game_developer_11_years/

 

[AchromicWhite]

1 minute ago, dkeeton said:

, the guy has done lots of interviews and I don't remember which one he talks about resolution,  Just some google "Louis Castle interview" if you have a few hours to burn.

Joe Bostic is the other main guy from WW: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/19epje/i_am_joe_bostic_22_year_game_developer_11_years/

 

Thanks for that. Game design is one of my side hobbies

[dkeeton]

7 minutes ago, AchromicWhite said:

Thanks for that. Game design is one of my side hobbies

Oh, a fellow nerd. Not meaning to hijack this thread, but this guy has some interesting things to say about RTS games https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5SAfTSIOE4

[AchromicWhite]

48 minutes ago, dkeeton said:

Oh, a fellow nerd. Not meaning to hijack this thread, but this guy has some interesting things to say about RTS games https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5SAfTSIOE4

LOL
I've actually seen this video before xD