What would you do to make Tiberian Sun Better balanced?

[XGalaxyZ]

Before anyone would attack or hate me for this Balancing topic let it be known that on this game Its great to play it but there are some things which really makes it unfair for most things Here would be a few examples

1. GDI Does not even need power for their Component Tower Upgrades Vulcan Cannon RPG Rockets and SAM Rockets Can always fire even when the GDI Player has no Power plants builded or left

2. The Attack Cycle is very pointless to use It cant fire on air units unless its Elite which gives it the HoverMLRS Missiles.

3. Jumpjet Infantry their flight speed is too slow for both Vanilla Tiberian Sun and Firestorm and its pretty dumb to mass produce these little guys with their Machine Guns Yes they are good for forcing players to build anti-air and scouting but other than that Meh.

4. Superweapons. Generally i have no hate or Unbalance for this But the Hunter Seeker is so broken On Firestorm it can even kill a core defender in one shot Plus you cant turn them off normally like in RA2 where ur forced to either play with them on or play Tech Levels lower

5. Attack Buggies Wolverines Cyborgs would they even have any use Cyborgs cost too much are too slow and are a waste of 650$ And are an ineffective unit choice too Not to mention Titans kill it very easily It can be EMPed too

6. Out of ideas Let me know your ideas on how to balance Tiberian Sun or Firestorm out better 

[Assist]

Hey

Actually this applies to most of the CnCnet games (RA, TD, Dune and TS). Also I must tell you, this topic can be toxic for both fans and admins so I will divide it into two dimensions.

===First dimension is the fan based prospective. ===

 

These are the challenges: (the negatives)

1. Fans and pros are used to their own play style for years and years.. Many would find that balance topics are threat to their style and so they will resist it.

2. Players may object simply because it is difficult to agree on what to edit or balance. Each player has his own opinion.

3. Arrogance; put it simply like this: who you are to suggest this topic?!. Leave it for the pros!.

4. This argument that says, Nod/Allies/Ordos is only for pros. You don't know how to use them.

5. Also you might find this argument in some fans and admins that keep things as the way they were originally. Keep it classic. (and to be honest is this a very strong one even if you find it not.)

 

However, the other side of the coin, there are some potentials (the positives)

1. Balanced game will draw more players from the new generations. Let me explain this in details;

         As you know, these games are great, they are free, simple, easy to download and yet good in strategy. Many of the us don't understand this; that the balance is essential to get the younger players (who are used to play advanced and intelligent games). You wont convince a 20 years old to only and exclusively play one side his life to learn how to somewhat compete with other online players. it doesn't make sense. For example, I played dune in CnCnet and was told to not pick Ordos because they are in disadvantage. And they really are, nobody picks Ordos. Although Ordos is my favorite but I simply won't play it online when I want competitive games. Also in TS you there are plenty of units that are unable to fill their designed roles effectively (cyborgs, stealth tanks, bazooka for bridges, tick tanks, wolverine, GDI defenses to some extent and we are not talking about FS units) So nobody is playing FS and guess why... Also a Player coming from new games would of course feel frustrated and disappointed and his existence in CNCnet would be a temporarily one. At least in TS, both GDI and Nod cancel each other erratic balances and you would get a balanced unbalanced game. This is also why u see many people play mod maps which somewhat enable the use of other nod units like cyborgs and tick tanks, whom would have little chance in ww maps.  However, in RA, the games are 95% Soviets. I remember one particular game which I started as an ally. a soviet player simply brought his mcv from the start to me and built flame throwers.  Although I was a head in time, there is no counter to a flame thrower before war factory. Allies Turret do nothing to flame thrower. So yes, no skill or thinking is needed and I lost the game. I felt unfair but so what. If I want to play RA i just go to other platform and could play as allies competitively.

 

2. Old players and players who rarely play would be more encouraged to get involved in competitive games and you would see better strategies, creative thinking. To be honest I never watch cncnet RA streams/youtube because they are predictable and repetitive. Yes it is skill to learn RA in cncnet but not type of skills that normal human being want to acquire (ok am exaggerating but just to make my point easier to understand) . While watching dune/TS is much more fun and they have some real weight in strategy. 

 

===The second dimension is from the moderators prospective. This point is complicated and most will never grasp the different aspects of this thing. All I want to say is that admins have their own goals and preferences when they erected this platform. Also they are volunteering their time and most fans simply taking this for granted.  This topic has the potential to backlash very negatively to the whole platform. However, it has the potential to positively increase the activity across the forums if fans saw a real discussion with an admin involvement=== 

 

 

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Finally, I would say that Humble @Humbledid great job in balancing TS, and most ww players already adopted his Terrace map as a true model for competitive games. First I wish I could see similar attempts from other players in other games. Secondly, I wish if the team would consider adding an option for balance ( below Multi-engineer, bridge destroyable, Short game, sams selectable..etc) to be ticked by the host player if he wishes, that can be used in all other maps. You could call it

[   ] CnCnet balance

 

Then this would do lesser damage if it was a choice than forcing the balance in the whole platform.

[c0rpsmakr]

Some of your points, Assist, I completely agree with. However, I have to disagree on listening to balance changes from players who don't have a full grasp on the game on an expert level, which is why i didnt comment on the OP's thoughts, as there's quite a lot wrong with many of their ideas, far too much to address in this thread without demonstrating in an actual game.

Edited May 1, 2018 by c0rpsmakr

[Humble]

The latest version of the veteran upgrade / balance patched maps is 2.24.

It basically makes medics, cyborgs, wolverines, buggys, obelisks, slightly better (actually close to being worth their cost).  It also allows units to get upgrades after killing 3x or 6x their value in other units.

The main difference between version 2.24 and other versions, is that it really focuses on making NOD more reasonable (without making it over powered).  The very large majority of 'pro' players still stick with GDI, even knowing the upgrades to NOD.

One example is on normal TS, tick tanks would loose 99-100% health to one bomber pass, now they have similar armor to titans, yet act the same way vs other units like MK or GS.  Cyborg Commando still misses moving targets, but not as frequently, making building a TON2 and buying a sub/CC more worth it, but not changing its damage vs buildings.

GDI is pretty much left alone, besides medic and wolverine, and the vet. upgrades.

I have a list of all the changes, and the reasons why, as well as some bugs found in the coding of the game that have also been fixed in this version that I need to finish and get posted, but for now those are the general changes.

Some players are resistant to playing the vet/balance map, but 95+% of them refuse to play NOD.

Some pro players like c0rps who does play nod still prefers the old version, but to be totally honest, if he looses 2-3 games in a row vs another pro player, he is very likely to switch to GDI and completely smash his opponent.

Something to take into consideration as well, is NOD defense and attacks both require much more timing and micro control, and the CNCNET game speed is 60 FPS now instead of the 52 FPS it used to be.  That may not sound like a big difference, but if you play on a high level, it is insane.  Coupled with the fact that CNCNET has reduced 'delay' for timing attacks/defense, and less lag (in most games), it really makes NOD that much harder.  One small example is that rockets/bikes don't really damage moving targets unless you constanty move/re-position them and defending 2-3 disruptor attacks at the same time in high speed games can be intense.

Something else to take into consideration is that even in a game with a pro NOD player vs a pro GDI player, there may be a rather large skill gap between them, that allows the other to play NOD.  c0rps for example is one of the top players, even when rusty, so he can get away with playing NOD vs the average other 'pro' players, but if someone good enough logs on he is less likely to win with his NOD and more likely to win with his GDI.

A lot of the reasons above are valid points, but at the end of the day a lot of players are simply stubborn.  The same players that complain every other game about what sucks about NOD, are the same ones to complain about anyone trying to fix NOD up at all.

A lot of players have also got used to never using medics and don't think they should even be in the game, or don't like the veteran upgrades, but fact of the matter is vet upgrades were built into the game, and rendered disabled due to the game being rushed out and lack of support for patches.

When the game was first released, NOD was way overpowered, so they nerfed it down a bit to compensate, but after doing so never stuck around to actually see how things played out, which was basically NOD sucking, unless you have 5 cups of coffee, 2 energy drinks, and are a top 5 player out of hundreds.

If you guys knew how many super pro NOD players came back to CNCNET and switched to GDI it would put this post in perspective.

[c0rpsmakr]

Firstly, it's clear that gdi units are of much more flexibility and strength than nod. However, If any balance changes were to be seriously discussed, it should take more than one or two people to really sit down and work out any alterations that could affect everyone else, which is a huge criticism i've had for those implementing changes on cncnet from the beginning... There's also the idea that even the top players, myself included, hadn't figured out how to play nod at its best vs top gdi players, which i believe is part of the problem. This game is so old and past its prime that almost nobody's even considered other strategies and thats been left up to less than a handful of people to try to continue innovating over the last 15 years, at least as far as nod goes. I have a few new ideas for it when i get on, but to say that gdi is better than nod is not accurate. Even with nods several useless units and buildings, the type of map and the players' understanding of the game should ultimately decide the outcome. 

Edited May 2, 2018 by c0rpsmakr

[Holland]

I personally would want to see more mods. The original gdi nod balance is quite brilliant and took an entire team to balance out, its been basically impossible for me to create a complete new balance all by myself. Some have gotten very close. Waterworld was awesome. Coollinks mod maps too. 

I like to get more in the psychology of why we still TS. Habits. most ppl dont wanna play this old ass game lol. And if it wasnt for cncnet, many would have quit TS. Which means change need to happen. I even wanna look into changing the sidebar template ingame... wouldnt it be awesome to be able to pick a brand new look!

[amokk]

1 hour ago, Holland said:

I even wanna look into changing the sidebar template ingame... wouldnt it be awesome to be able to pick a brand new look!

You forgot the obligatory  'MMUUuuuuAaaaHaaaHaaaaa>>>>>>>!!!!!!!'

Edited May 4, 2018 by amokk

[Holland]

Great topic here @XGalaxyZ

I also like the idea of a list of balances to choose from, instead of it being in only a single map. If the changes you would want to see in the game was to be pickable when hosting a game, then we could make everyone happy, plus we keep the original balance as standard ofcourse. also a bunch of custom fan made 3d models were uploaded  last december, im sure you've seen them and im making tutorials on how to use them. So lets say for example you want the nod bike's weapon to be anti-air, its good to change its image/voxel too, as a reminder its been edited. The admins have been so great, im sure we can work something out and make more improvements happen. so i really hope we could see a list to pick a balance from. @dkeeton what do u think? So we can create a balance for everyone, maybe. We could sit around the table, work together and work on 1 by one  ( i know i could make a dozen, with boats, new mechs, etc lol). I would love to test them out with you guys since i know each modding code straight outta my head lol. What you guys think? @Assist@c0rpsmakr @HumbleJust imagine a dropdown box next to a checkbox: □ Enable custom balance:  pick: c0rpsmakers balance, HUmbles balance, assists balance.. etc. maybe with a (details) infopanel

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Holland

[Humble]

The vet/balance patch i support isnt just mine, actually a lot of ww players helped me and thats why the version is already up to 2.24, lots of feedback taken into consideration. For example the star mk used to be a bit too strong and the star cc was too weak, etc. 

 

i would love for there to be a check box to enable it, and the ability to update it on server side instead of each map 1 by 1. 

 

I been putting it off, and all the people that play it with me know the changes, but ill get around to posting a complete list of the vet/balance patch edits some day soon. 

 

To be fair... some players hate the idea of any changes and think untits like cyborgs and medics and wolverines shouldnt be part of the game... hard to reason with that group. 

Some of The Best Nod players in history of ts have been on/off cncnet and none of them played nod. Server too fast and average ww player gdi skill level too high for more than 1-2 games as nod before needing a break ad comfy gdi. Too much micro and everyone plays terraces nowadays...

Edited May 11, 2018 by Humble

[KevinLancaster]

What is the latest version checksum for the balance patch? There are multiple in the map database again: http://mapdb.cncnet.org/search.php?game=ts&age=0&search=vet+2.24

Do you plan to finalize it eventually so the rules aren't changing for tournament matches?

Another thing I found out trying to edit TS rules is that apparently there are some hardcoded stats: http://www.tiberiumweb.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=4110

Edited June 26, 2018 by KevinLancaster

[Humble]

1664cb70c693217348f97b31f236d753b24c5993

Terrace(2-4)(Ally / Vet 2.24)

mk, cc, are hard coded but if u clone them and edit the clone that works

 

devil tongue seems impossible to get vet upgrades, regardless of method, even in firestorm which has upgrades by default

[KevinLancaster]

Was trying to import the rules into TibEd, found that "[Area Guard]" is misspelled "[AreaGuard]" in the map and was breaking the rules file that gets generated. Not sure if it affects the map though in PvP but might affect Skirmish AI.

[Holland]

SO the new update contained some new voxels. I kept in mind the things discussed in this topic, and luckily i found some stuff that might be good for some vehicle replacements, so lets say you do want to give the nod bike's projectile AA=yes (aa=anti aircraft), like discussed before it might be better to then also actually change the whole image of the bike, their named: BGGYB, BIKERE, and NSTNK3

also a  Wolverine as infantry!! named: WOLVE (pretty cool as they exit the APC)

Its all ready to use right now.

I put it all in this topic, https://forums.cncnet.org/topic/8661-ts-the-new-units-and-buildings-expand11/