Yuri's Revenge Rebalanced 2.0

[XGalaxyZ]

On 6/3/2021 at 3:18 PM, xe3 said:

The best way to balance Apocs: forget about them. It's simply a shitty unit. Go buy Rhinos with Teslas. Using IC on Apocs is also a waste of IC and $$$... Yea you might destroy a building when your fatass gets over there, but when it wears off it's a 100% L. When a Kirov has more use than an Apoc.... You know it's bad. I'd even say V3s have more use than that hunk of junk.

IIRC in Red Alert 3 they've completely redesigned Apocs. They knew it was terrible in RA2.

Edit: read a bit more of this thread. The problem with Apocs is that they're basically Jackshit at All Trades. Can you name one thing that Apoc excels at when compared to any other unit?

Sieging a base? Prisms, Choppers, Magnetrons, BFs excel at that. Even V3s have their use.

Upper hand in basic tank battle? Yeah, maybe if you live long enough for that mircale to happen. But honestly you'd do the same thing with Rhinos and Teslas if the game drags that long, and your opponent is technically already beaten.

Armor? BF is almost if not identical in HP and armor classification.

Speed? All units run circles around it.

Good against infantry? Just about every other tank is better at that.

Good AA? If you're using Apocs as AA you deserve to lose.

How about Mindcontrol? Absolutely useless. What would you rather have against a single $800 Yuri clone, an Apoc or 2-3 Rhinos/1-2 Teslas? Now you have your answer.

Even if the most OP scenario you can think of.... Chrono + IC.... Every other unit mentioned above will do better.

Can't flank, can't outtank, can't catch up, can't retreat, damage is nothing to scream about, cheesed by air units, too slow, too expensive, too long to build, sucks against infantry, gets kited until no tomorrow, one shot by mind control...All that, for a hefty bill of $1750. What a deal! 

There would not even be any good point Giving Apocs. many Buffs. Sure you can spam them at sov mirrors. Or the Rekoool/Infinite Money Maps. But afaik. It just has too many drawbacks to make it viable. Missiles suck on it. speed sucks. Price too high.  Soviets! Should always spam rhinos!  Not the worthless apocs!

[ReaperAA]

On 8/14/2021 at 11:53 PM, XGalaxyZ said:

Pretty sure Everyone. already patched to the latest patch? Either Way Rebalance Patch Should keep the Balanced Elite Rockets. The older ones Are too strong. Vs Buildings.  

I Disagree. Totally with Buffing Rocketeers. These guys are easily spammable. And good with each promotion. Regardless. Of them being pretty strong in AvA They always had The most underpowered anti-air defence. Minus aegis cruisers.

Rocketeers are extremely cost inefficient against Soviets and Yuri. I single flak track or gattling tank can easily kill 8-10 Rocketeers. They are only good in AvA because Allies have bad anti-air.

 

The reason I suggested the change of armor (from none to flak) is because that makes Rocketeers better against Soviets/Yuri without affecting AvA at all. The reason why AvA is unaffected is because all Allied AA units do same damage to none and flak armor. So this change literally has no impact at all in AvA.

[XGalaxyZ]

38 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

Rocketeers are extremely cost inefficient against Soviets and Yuri. I single flak track or gattling tank can easily kill 8-10 Rocketeers. They are only good in AvA because Allies have bad anti-air.

 

The reason I suggested the change of armor (from none to flak) is because that makes Rocketeers better against Soviets/Yuri without affecting AvA at all. The reason why AvA is unaffected is because all Allied AA units do same damage to none and flak armor. So this change literally has no impact at all in AvA.

Allies/Yuri Are not Brute Force. factions. Either learn all 3 Factions correctly. Or dont Buff Units that are already powerful. Enough Sov anti-air is already powerful enough vs swarms of air units. + Vet/Elite rocketeers Are strong enough hit and run air units. And cheap to produce. too + The real good players arent gonna swarm sovs/yuri with tons of rocketeers. 

[ReaperAA]

1 hour ago, XGalaxyZ said:

Allies/Yuri Are not Brute Force. factions.

Nobody said they are.

1 hour ago, XGalaxyZ said:

Or dont Buff Units that are already powerful.

Rocketeers are only powerful in AvA. They are almost (not quite, but almost) useless against Soviets and Yuri.

1 hour ago, XGalaxyZ said:

The real good players arent gonna swarm sovs/yuri with tons of rocketeers. 

The real players rarely ever use rocketeers AT ALL. Because their only real use is to force a soviet to make 1 or 2 flaks to slow down their Rhino spam. Against Yuri, the rocketeers are even more useless since Yuri players tend to use gattling tanks fairly often for the Gattling+magnetron combo.

Against Yuri, you are better off making GI IFVs initially to pressure Yuri, and use robot tanks to fight his magnetron+lashers until you get mirage tanks.

 

1 hour ago, XGalaxyZ said:

+ Vet/Elite rocketeers Are strong enough hit and run air units.

Good luck even getting them to vet/elite against decent/pro players in the first place.

[XGalaxyZ]

1 hour ago, ReaperAA said:

Nobody said they are.

Rocketeers are only powerful in AvA. They are almost (not quite, but almost) useless against Soviets and Yuri. Not really. If you treat RA2 the same way with how TS air units act you deserve to lose. Flak is meant to handle swarms of air units. not single targets.

The real players rarely ever use rocketeers AT ALL. Because their only real use is to force a soviet to make 1 or 2 flaks to slow down their Rhino spam. Against Yuri, the rocketeers are even more useless since Yuri players tend to use gattling tanks fairly often for the Gattling+magnetron combo. False. Again. its a safe. scout to where only anti-air can harm it. Again. Sovs have flak cannons too. To keep making rhinos.

Against Yuri, you are better off making GI IFVs initially to pressure Yuri, and use robot tanks to fight his magnetron+lashers until you get mirage tanks. GI IFVs. Arent Bikes/Buggies in TD Spamming them is easily a waste of money + time Not to mention, both are fragile.

 

Good luck even getting them to vet/elite against decent/pro players in the first place. Easily. Done when you put a spy inside a IFV. And keep your enemy occupied. Its not that Hard to do.

Also Bear in mind. That vs Noobs/AI You can spam your favorite things at. But forr skilled players. Youll need to adapt better

 

[ReaperAA]

@XGalaxyZ This reply tells me you don't really play or even watch any pro games (that ok, I am not a pro either, but I have watched many pro games).

1. Regarding flaks. You are right the flaks are "meant" to handle swarms or rocketeers. The problem in vanilla RA2/YR is that flak is much more effective even against single targets as compared to Allied AA.
2. You don't even need rocketeers to scout, when you have already scouted with dogs. Also flak cannons are very rarely used when flak track are more cost effective and mobile
3. GI IFVs are very effective against Yuri early on (unless Yuri has some Gattling tanks). You can use about 3-5 GI IFVs to take out the Yuri's power plant or radar to slow down Yuri.
4. Again. Rocketeers work well against noobs, but against skilled players (especially if it is Yuri) they are mostly a waste of cash

For some Allied vs Yuri pro games: https://www.twitch.tv/mj_vst

(watch the Allied op tourney matches in the twitch channel to see what units are used by pro players)

 

Example match: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1109317903?filter=all&sort=time

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by ReaperAA

[XGalaxyZ]

39 minutes ago, ReaperAA said:

@XGalaxyZ This reply tells me you don't really play or even watch any pro games (that ok, I am not a pro either, but I have watched many pro games).

1. Regarding flaks. You are right the flaks are "meant" to handle swarms or rocketeers. The problem in vanilla RA2/YR is that flak is much more effective even against single targets as compared to Allied AA.
2. You don't even need rocketeers to scout, when you have already scouted with dogs. Also flak cannons are very rarely used when flak track are more cost effective and mobile
3. GI IFVs are very effective against Yuri early on (unless Yuri has some Gattling tanks). You can use about 3-5 GI IFVs to take out the Yuri's power plant or radar to slow down Yuri.
4. Again. Rocketeers work well against noobs, but against skilled players (especially if it is Yuri) they are mostly a waste of cash

For some Allied vs Yuri pro games: https://www.twitch.tv/mj_vst

(watch the Allied op tourney matches in the twitch channel to see what units are used by pro players)

 

Example match: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1109317903?filter=all&sort=time

 

Thats Okay. though. I mean you really treat Other factions like they are Sovs. Which is why you want to have stronger stuff Buffed. Just. saying though. As you probably forget. That some stuff are not meant. To handle certain. things. *Edit* I didtn watch the video in the link. P.S I can actually play all 3 factions well. You on the other hand. Might only play vs Bot Players.  Which is why You want rocketeers buffed  

[ReaperAA]

2 hours ago, XGalaxyZ said:

Thats Okay. though. I mean you really treat Other factions like they are Sovs. Which is why you want to have stronger stuff Buffed. Just. saying though. As you probably forget. That some stuff are not meant. To handle certain. things.

I don't though. I only want to see the 3 factions being roughly equal in terms of how they perform at high level. Right now, in May's QM, I see that AvY is the worst balanced matchup according to stats (with Yuri getting 70% wins in AvY). In SvA, Soviets got 58% wins against Allied. And in SvY, Yuri got 58% wins against Soviets.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Dq9DutM38EeYh1ABDBQgSfajF2FPL0g8CUi_mc77DeY/edit

Quote

 

Soviet wins: 308 / Yuri Wins: 436

Allied wins: 184 / Yuri Wins: 414

Soviet wins: 1615 / Allied Wins: 1131

And this is with the QM maps that tend to have big open layouts to nerf Yuri and also Allies get some buffs in QM like faster powerplant (0.75 build speed).

 

Even though I am mainly a Soviet player, yet I absolutely hate the SvS mirrors. I like more people use the less player countries like Germany, GB, Russia, Cuba etc. And less mirror matchups

 

2 hours ago, XGalaxyZ said:

I didtn watch the video in the link. P.S I can actually play all 3 factions well. You on the other hand. Might only play vs Bot Players.  Which is why You want rocketeers buffed  

You should definitely give it a watch. It really show what is used and what isn't used in the meta.

Also, nope I don't use rocketeers even against bots (and I don't even play against AI much nowadays). I just use IFVs for AA and Prism+BFs against them.

Edited August 21, 2021 by ReaperAA

[Ezer_2000]

18 hours ago, XGalaxyZ said:

Thats Okay. though. I mean you really treat Other factions like they are Sovs.

I told him the same thing.

A lot of people who don't have enough experience can't understand this thing. Don't worry he'll get more practice and understand his mistakeness.

16 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

I don't though.

You do though. A lot of people was thinking the same way as you are. But later they gained more experience and changed their mind about gameplay.

Don't look at QM. QM statisctics lies because most people don't wan't to waste time for pro Allied game and use quick tacktics which leading them to defeat. Because quite often those tactics are not effective and quite often coupled together with desperation caused by losses in those inaccurative attacks. Also a lot of noobs there (in QM).

[ReaperAA]

23 hours ago, Ezer_2000 said:

Don't look at QM. QM statisctics lies because most people don't wan't to waste time for pro Allied game and use quick tacktics which leading them to defeat. Because quite often those tactics are not effective and quite often coupled together with desperation caused by losses in those inaccurative attacks. Also a lot of noobs there (in QM).

I don't think so. Its true that there are noobs there as well. But the top 30-ish players are pretty much all pro players. And even there, you will find that most of them use Soviets.

On RA2 month, you will manage to find some Allied players there on top 30 (although Soviets still dominate).

But on YR month, the situation is much much worse for Allied. Because of how imbalanced AvY is, even many people who would otherwise play Allied in RA2 tend to play as Soviet or Yuri in YR month. In fact, the Chinese prodigy Wudi (on QM, he is StrategyMST or idealist), who had been beating every one on in RA2 month of June as both Soviet and Allied, stated that he won't play as Allied in YR QM because of how imbalanced AvY. He actually decided to stick to Soviets for YR month so he could secure Rank 1.

And all of this is with the maps in QM being very non-Yuri favoured. QM maps have big open layouts which hurt Yuri the most because Yuri has the slowest units. On Westwood maps, things are worse because Allied/Soviet can't use their speed advantage against Yuri.

[Ezer_2000]

@ReaperAA Btw did you try to play at 45 fps? Average maximum game fps for 2008-2010 was around 40-45. Now people complaining about Allied faction is weak because thay don't have time for microcontroll all of stuff. But today noobs always complaining if their games a bit below 70 fps. Sure you won't get time to control your units in this case. And note how noobs always complaing about lagging when they lose. They never play again tho. They say they hate lags, but really they hate to lose in the game speed they never played before. Becasue they are used to play in HD (1920*1080 and higher) resolution and 60-70 fps with rough tank control and not paying attention to many of small but important things happening around the battle.

[ReaperAA]

I know I said before (in the other thread) that I am done with the convo. But I feel like I have to just answer one last time for this comment.

18 hours ago, Ezer_2000 said:

@ReaperAA Btw did you try to play at 45 fps? Average maximum game fps for 2008-2010 was around 40-45. 

No I have not. Firstly, there is no 45 fps option in the game (I am not sure if something like this existed in XWIS, but both original WW and CNCNET versions don't have it). It is either 60 fps (Faster speed) or 30 fps (Fast speed) being the next lower option. The only reason those 40-45 fps games can exist now is if there is shit ton of lag and/or computers having shit specs (and really, why should we go back to those dark times of lag??)

Now, I don't doubt that it would make things easier for Allied, but so does Yuri benefit from it. For Yuri, it becomes much more easier to juggle enemy tanks with magnetrons or micro discs to avoid damage. Not to mention that dodging planes also becomes easier. Soviets get least benefit from lower fps because they are the least micro intensive faction. So I doubt AvY would suddenly become balanced.

Ask pretty much any number of pro players (here, discord, youtube etc.) and most will tell you why and how AvY is imbalanced. If you think discord is full of noobs (which it really isn't, there are plenty of pro players there, both modern era and from xwis era), then you can at least spare some time and watch the matches (even though I am sure that you are so stubborn that you aren't going to watch it)

On 8/21/2021 at 9:46 PM, ReaperAA said:

For some Allied vs Yuri pro games: https://www.twitch.tv/mj_vst

(watch the Allied op tourney matches in the twitch channel to see what units are used by pro players)

 

Example match: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1109317903?filter=all&sort=time

These are matches from Allied vs Yuri tourny that took place recently where all matches were played in a way where 1 player plays as Allied and the other as Yuri and after each round, they switch sides.

Since pretty much all pros agree that Allied vs Yuri is imbalanced with SWs on, this tourney was organized to see how Allied fares against Yuri when SWs are off. Even with SWs off and with Allied favored map pool of QM (big open maps hurt Yuri), Yuri still came out as the stronger faction

Yuri had 29 wins vs Allied having 21 wins.

Edited August 24, 2021 by ReaperAA

[ReaperAA]

On 5/21/2021 at 6:54 PM, Ezer_2000 said:

Well, more personal wishes:

Robot tank and robot control center useless thing for allies. They have mirage and prism tanks, GGI IFV and BF. Everything you need to kill Yuri army. It would be nice if you move it to soviet side. Moreover, that idea initially was created for soviet side IMO. Just look at its SHP image and notice soviet-style textures (light and shade). It looks like it was soviet building before game release but developers decided to move it to allied side and just changed its pallet from brown to bluish (allied). This is useless thing for allied side but it might be userful to make soviets stronger in SvY matches when SW not available.

Also that tourney also shows why this suggestion is terrible. Robot tanks are "actually" very useful for Allied when facing Yuri. Allied needs robot tanks to defend against early Magnetrons+Lashers before an Allied player get a battle lab. Their only main problem is that the entire robot army become useless when discs or SWs get involved because a single power outage means that they become defenseless. Thus, not going offline is a very good buff for them.

In SW off, they become more useful precisely because there is no SW and thus less fear of power outage.

Seriously, robot tanks are actually much more useful than BFs or even prism tanks against Yuri.

[Ezer_2000]

I was quickly watching this video before and noticed the allied player is playing Yuri's revenge like he's playing RA2.

Edited August 24, 2021 by Ezer_2000

[XGalaxyZ]

37 minutes ago, Ezer_2000 said:

I was quickly watching this video before and noticed the allied player is playing Yuri's revenge like he's playing RA2.

I know right. We gotta teach them to Own Poor Weak Soviet factions  

[ReaperAA]

You guys say that, yet I bet those guys would easily beat you if you play against them, irrespective of which factions are chosen. Those guys are pros, not rekool noobs.

(unless you guys prove it to me by coming up with a better strategy and applying it against Yuri pros)

Edited August 24, 2021 by ReaperAA

[Ezer_2000]

They won't going to play with me becasue when they once losing: "ohh, so much terrible lag, I cant play like that bye noob".

I think when PCs will be able to provide 100-120 fps someone start thinking about optimal game speed. Now people are just used to play at overnormal fps and they don't want to play properly, becaue fast and innacurattive game is easier than proper microconrol. Soviet and yuri factions don't need as much micro as allied that's why people think Yuri and Sovs OP. I think optimal speed is 45 fps.

On 8/24/2021 at 3:49 PM, ReaperAA said:

It is either 60 fps (Faster speed) or 30 fps (Fast speed) being the next lower option

Try to go to the multiplayer dialog. It has different options LOL.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Ezer_2000

[ReaperAA]

13 hours ago, Ezer_2000 said:

Try to go to the multiplayer dialog. It has different options LOL.

Well you got me here. I just checked it again now and there is a 45 fps option. I just keep it at the default 60 fps, but I could have sworn the last time I ever checked it there wasn't a 45 fps option. Cool to see that extra option added.

[Windy Wind]

Can you tone down the Tesla tanks a little bit? because they are very OP in team game at the moment, especially in late game. My suggestion is -1 range or -1 bounce target or -50% damage against medium armor or 15 bounce damage instead of 30. Or combination of those suggestions.

Also, tank destroyer still feels a bit undesirable to use because paying 900 credits for a tank and I can't even do any damage to a building is just too much. My suggestion is to change the verse for building to 10% instead of 2%. This still makes them not very good against building, but at least they won't be completely helpless against buildings neither. 

[weapon317]

Am I missing something here? How do I install this?

[PrezSpammer]

Is there any way to tweak it so that Apocs, Battle Forts, Prism Tanks and Yuri MCVs (if enabled) are not available from crates within the first couple minutes of the game? These units are notoriously overpowering in the right hands if a player finds one in a crate just moments after a game begins.

[Leotony]

Hello,I have played more than 15 years in RA2 and YR.I think the rebalanced patch is good,but can still make it better.Here's my opinions:

Allies:

1 Battle Fortress's bonus range should be reduced to 1

2 Tank Destroyer's warhead:verses for infantry and building should be reduced to 1% so that the Tank Destroyer will not attack them on its own initiative

Soviet:

1 Siege Chopper:it can self heal.Because it cannot be repaired by Soviet depot

2 Demo Truck:cancel the buildsound so that it can be more unexpected.Cost reduce to 1200

3 Terrorist:Totally rebuild the infantry.It  has no any advantages compared to Demotruck.My suggestion is its primary weapon can use makeupkit like spy.and the secondaryweapon can use ivanbomb or C4.Of course its cost will increase to 1000

4 Crazy Ivan:Its range can increase to 3 and can detonated bomb manually

5 Apocalypse's health increase to 1000 and speed increase to 5 so that it can catch the Battlefortress

Yuri:

1 Cancel the bonus range of Tankbunk

2 Increase Mastermind's ROF to 80

[NizzyStorm]

On 3/21/2022 at 8:23 PM, weapon317 said:

Am I missing something here? How do I install this?

It's in the regular CNCNET client.  Look at the image in Burg's post at the start of the forum. 

 

On 5/7/2022 at 11:37 AM, Leotony said:

Hello,I have played more than 15 years in RA2 and YR.I think the rebalanced patch is good,but can still make it better.Here's my opinions:

Allies:

1 Battle Fortress's bonus range should be reduced to 1

2 Tank Destroyer's warhead:verses for infantry and building should be reduced to 1% so that the Tank Destroyer will not attack them on its own initiative

Soviet:

1 Siege Chopper:it can self heal.Because it cannot be repaired by Soviet depot

2 Demo Truck:cancel the buildsound so that it can be more unexpected.Cost reduce to 1200

3 Terrorist:Totally rebuild the infantry.It  has no any advantages compared to Demotruck.My suggestion is its primary weapon can use makeupkit like spy.and the secondaryweapon can use ivanbomb or C4.Of course its cost will increase to 1000

4 Crazy Ivan:Its range can increase to 3 and can detonated bomb manually

5 Apocalypse's health increase to 1000 and speed increase to 5 so that it can catch the Battlefortress

Yuri:

1 Cancel the bonus range of Tankbunk

2 Increase Mastermind's ROF to 80

Alright, I have some thoughts about your change suggestions.

Allies: 

BF's could use a range nerf but honestly they are not super difficult to kill if you know how. They just do a lot of damage so you need to time it properly. 

Tank Destroyers are so good against vehicals that all you need to do is mix in prism tanks with Tank Destroyers. They can crush infantry and they have already been buffed to deal with drones. 

Soviets:

Siege choppers self healing, i honestly don't know about that one. Unless they only self heal while in the air or something. 

Removing Demo trucks calling card would be a massive mistake. For a fast paced game like this. It would be unfair. Especially if your opponent anti scouts. Their cost could be argued to be lower however. 

Terrorist is one I would like a complete rework on but it's to be done right. I would rather take a generals approach on them and allow them to be stealthed. So they would require lab at that point. That's the only way i could see them being viable but this game does not have the stealth detection thing or anything of the sorts for stealthed units, so it's best to just leave them the way they are, they are already uncrushable now and i think their explosion radius is increased too. 

Crazy Ivan's don't need a change really, the only thing I'd change with a unit like that is the seal and make they C4's timed like the Ivan bombs, that's it. 

So many people have said Apocs need more buffs. And while I think for most people that would be good. If used right they are so good already at speed 4. The only reason people want more buffs for the Apocs is cause they don't know how to use the unit and how to work around the acceleration and air being targeted before ground. The reason they haven't got further buffs than auto shoot and being unable to be crushed by battle fortresses is because in a race between allies and soviets soviets can get to Apocs the fastest, they are battle ready coming out of the war factory and can go and apply pressure instantly and they do crap tons of damage right form the get go. Also, Soviets have Nuclear reactor. Allies have to make multiple power plants, their miners carry less, AND they have to constantly fill up BF's which requires so much micro they also have to keep making infantry for said BF's. Also, increase on health? It already takes 3 Rhino's to kill an Apoc. Health is the last thing I'd buff about them. Especially since they can already auto heal. BF's can't. 

Tank Bunker rage nerf is a curious one, why? It's a stationary base defense. And they already nerfed the health of tank bunkers I think.

Master Minds rate of fire is not a bad shout but mag's should be nerfed over master minds. If it was a choice of one or the other. There are units in the game that are immune to mind control, the only units immune to getting magnetroned is infantry and that's not very good against Yuri for the most part. To slow and he has viruses and disks to take care of infantry. But drones, robot tanks are good enough against Yuri's units to not need a nerf on master minds as much as magnetrons do. Also most people play with superweapons on. (Robots don't need power OR the robot center to function) and Soviets have the Iron Curtain which is like, the answer to like 99% of all your problems. 

Edited May 20, 2022 by NizzyStorm

[NizzyStorm]

On 4/7/2022 at 10:20 PM, PrezSpammer said:

Is there any way to tweak it so that Apocs, Battle Forts, Prism Tanks and Yuri MCVs (if enabled) are not available from crates within the first couple minutes of the game? These units are notoriously overpowering in the right hands if a player finds one in a crate just moments after a game begins.

Using common sense from what i;'ve seen, i've never actually tested this, this IS possible, in the ini files just set the "CrateGoodie" Tag from yes to no. 

CrateGoodie=no < is all you need. And I'd imagine it would remove those vehicles, V3 should also be removed just based on how useless that unit is. 

[Concolor1]

CrateGoodie=no --------- will work so you would have to add all the units to your map and add that line to them. Or if your using your own rulesmd.ini you would alter the vehicle rules in there.

ie [AMCV]

   CrateGoodie=no

   [V3]

 CrateGoodie=no

and so on.