"Useless" units

[X3M]

Too bad that you have to tech a little before the pavement becomes available. In some missions I even rebuild a part of my base after selling, just to get pavement under the first build structures. I just knew that those pesky artillery would have a chance during chaos. And that a structure might still be lost.

I even used silo's to expand my pavement much further.

 

I just noticed, a poll is not possible on this forum.

It would have been neat for me to create a poll. Instead. Now we have to do it manually. And out of experience, this doesn't go well.

[VamPyroX]

Too bad that you have to tech a little before the pavement becomes available. In some missions I even rebuild a part of my base after selling, just to get pavement under the first build structures. I just knew that those pesky artillery would have a chance during chaos. And that a structure might still be lost.

I even used silo's to expand my pavement much further.

 

I just noticed, a poll is not possible on this forum.

It would have been neat for me to create a poll. Instead. Now we have to do it manually. And out of experience, this doesn't go well.

Yeah. That was one thing I didn't look forward to.

 

I would do my best to place specific structures so that I could easily sell and rebuild them when needed. Then when doing pavements, I would quickly sell those structures, pave the ground, then rebuild the structures. (After I had enough units and vehicles available to defend the base if needed.)

[Punkernfg]

Would CNCnet consider altering unit traits for balancing issues?

[FunkyFr3sh]

If it is optional and disabled by default then it might be ok

[VamPyroX]

Would CNCnet consider altering unit traits for balancing issues?

What would you consider to be "balanced"?

[X3M]

Some units are simply not build because there are better options out there right now.

Before attempting creating a balance. Mapping out which units are used and which are not.

Perhaps a little scripting that logs every game how much units are used of one specific. Like the one in red alert has.

 

If one unit always shows 0. Then we know it isn't used.

[Punkernfg]

some of the things mentioned above, making the wolverine useful, as well as the nod buggy. A disc man should not be able to kill a nod buggy 1v1. There are many other things, I'm just wondering if CNCnet would actually consider changing the actual unit traits for good

[VamPyroX]

some of the things mentioned above, making the wolverine useful, as well as the nod buggy. A disc man should not be able to kill a nod buggy 1v1. There are many other things, I'm just wondering if CNCnet would actually consider changing the actual unit traits for good

I don't think that any unit traits should be modified.

 

It should be as the original game has it set up.

 

If we go changing how the units function in CnCNet, then they will be dealing with two different games when they should be the same.

 

I don't want to play on my own when my unit is hard to kill, then play against others when that same unit dies so easily.

[fullmetalarmour]

What about Jump Jet Infantry in Tiberian Sun?

I always use them to shoot down enemy air units 20 jump jet infantry can shoot down a banshee easy.

 

thats the biggest waste of cash i've ever heard lol. Buy a sam?

But there is no mobile SAM if I want to assault with a Mammoth and Disruptors i need anti air cover for those. I remember one time I launched an assault with 1 mammoth 10 Disruptors and 10 Titans and those Banshee swarm destroyed many of those before I got to the base but I sometimes just use Hover MLRS for this purpose but those are very weak and can't take many hits. For me the most worthless units are Limpet Drone.

[Allen262]

On the subject of Pavement, Subterranean units and ground deformation. They all seem to be added in a rush for gimmicks....

[X3M]

On the subject of Pavement, Subterranean units and ground deformation. They all seem to be added in a rush for gimmicks....

 

I think, they started with this. They have many units based on the effects that you are naming to begin with. One of the first previews that I read back then mentioned that the majority of the game lies within building up defences.

 

---

 

Air units. The hardest units to balance.

 

Most air is overpowered in all the C&C games. That is something for sure. Other RTS have this problem as well, thus I recognise the different possible factors specifically. But Tiberian Sun has really a lot of reasons. I don't know which ones they took into account for balancing. Thus I name them all for now.

 

Possible imbalances:

- They need to reload, but for balance the designers thought to increase the damage outload. I consider this a good approach, but they forgot other features that they add to air.

- They are mostly stacked in combat. They don't block each other. And all can fight at exactly the same time. (Estimated +40% in general at an infinite ammount of units (health+damage)). To be countered with splash, splash any one? No splash in TS? Awwww...

- They are ridiculous fast compared to all the other units. Some games make air fast while they don't balance this. (Estimated +100% on health). To be countered with lower health.

- Flying over and dropping (orca bomber/banshee) is practical speaking also better then having to hoover first and then fire. SAMS need to turn around, shorter ranged units need to hunt the air units and have a shorter time shooting (Estimated +50% on health, but combined with point 3, +200% on health in total)

- They ignore terrain. Depending on the maps, in tiberian sun +50% on health.

- When using support units or meat units in air, they have a different purpose than land units that aren't stacked. Support is for hit and run on wandering units or easy targets. Fast dealing with them. Meat is more for a bombing run on a base where air is supposed to die, but these are not doing much damage in general.

 

Luckily SAMS have homing missiles that follow the air units when they go out of range.

Of course, in certain situations air feels weak. But for this you need to look discretely to the balance. Players avoid deadly situations. And faster agile units can avoid this easily.

I don't know how many points they have taken into account for the balance. They should be grateful for when one of the Starcraft designers joined their team when making C&C3.

There you have splash with certain AA weapons, a price balance on the stacking (Pitbulls and infantry too! ).

 

The ORCA bomber?

If I asume that it is supposed to be an support unit, 400 in health and 1200 in damage.

Although, to me it always felt like a medium to meaty unit since the true worth of health exceeds the damage worth. (They do a lot of damage you say? That is because they have the chance to do so! Due to durability)

Using all the factors above. The new cost could be at max 4200. Sounds ridiculous to my instinct.

 

Now that sounds like a lot. But stacking units means an army strenght that grows a bit faster then normally. The first one is only worth 3000. When you have 2, both are worth about 3224 each. With 3 we have 3320 each, etc. etc. (Formula for stacked units can be asked) It is depending on the average ammount of units used by pro that tells us what the stacking factor will be. I like having 25 bombers, thus each would be worth 3533. Much lower already then 4200.

 

Still it sounds like a lot while I considered the bomber to be a support unit by intentions from the designers. I think that they did have taken some imbalances into account. Perhaps the stacking factor is already there. So the bomber remains a measily 3000 (maybe less if they implemented a wrong factor.)

 

Jumpjet infantry:

They aren't fast and don't fly over. The reason why they are considered weak is because they are killed very fast by AA. And their rifles are only usefull against infantry and weak vehilces? Perhaps they are the only air units that have a proper price already. But then again, they too are more or less a support unit.

[MrFrodo]

X3M and VamPyroX do you guys play ts? Because you sound like RA/RA2 players.

Official maps:

All units have their timely purpose I think, I have seen players use bikes, devils and even stealth tanks. Bikes are mainly used against gdi for defense, someplayers try to rush with 5/6+ bikes as a surprise. I have seen but rarely stealth tanks also being used as  defense. Also STs used as a scout technique.

 

Orca Bombers are powerful but they are NOT fast at all compared to the regular Orcas and Nod Banshees. And in ggs I see bombers used most of the time for defense or killing of defense. And obviously if u have no SAMS or badly placed SAMs bombers do damage(obv player might just go for main buildings if there no sams etc). There is so many things to do, like a player sees his opp going bombers he would try to D up on a moderate/need-basis level and will also send waves of land attacks(Tits +inf)  or MK/Carryall attacks to have the other player use his bombs( this is just one scenario for instance). Nods can pop/dive with sub in pressuring the opp to keep his bombers for defense, especial sub with engies etc. What do you mean by 'splash'?

 

JJs(jumpjet inf) are very important , idk what you are talking about. In big maps very helpful with early scouts. They can be used to engage map units(like fiends). In terrace 2v2 sometimes it become really hard to scout for w/e reason people will send JJ to open up the opponent. It can be even made to just to F*** with the opponents head, opp might give in to early defense even when there is no imminent attack.

 

And dont talk about cost etc...Because money/economy is a very important part of TS so if someone is going for tech and just powerful air units, is not a good idea especially if the opponent might do a variety of attacks, the player might just end up using his 'expensive' and 'powerful' air units for defense. Lets say if a Nod player is thinking I need to get bans fast so he  can defense against early GDI disruptor attack and eventually have 10 of them to KO the opponent. Decent opp will either try to get the Nod players pads or even just send mass titans to make him use his bans that hes been stacking. Every game can be very diff in TS, have to go with the flo. Its hard to reach that level but we see good players very often doing crazy shit.

 

And air units are not, that 'fast'. They obv have to be faster than all ground and subterrean units so in that way its normal. And on other note, you cant compare bans to bombers at all.

It takes 10 banshees to kill an MCV, but it takes around 15+ to kill a defensive structure or powerplant or barracks. Just ONE Orcabomber can kill a defensive or a smaller structures(pp, barracks, sams, pads).Bans can target units more accurately, as for  the more powerful orca bomber, it can do damage more efficiently only if enemy units are stacked(hence, bombers). And imho SAMS are very powerful in TS.

 

(These are just simple examples that I have done/experienced, try watching some TS game recordings, might discover something more)

Cheers!

 

 

[Sol]

We have to differentiate between singleplayer, normal multiplayer and modded multiplayer maps. Because it seems like you guys are either talking about the singleplayer which has its own very different rules or the multiplayer on mod maps, which is basically a spamfest with infinite money like what TD/RA players are used to. But most of us are actually playing multiplayer on the original westwood maps with limited cash, where not only spamable units are useful.

Btw. I am pretty sure sams actually DO splash damage if the air units are stacked onto each other.

[X3M]

It is true that low money shifts the strategy. While until now i have seen more money maps ( which is a bummer ) then normal games.

 

In ra, rs and dune2k. I have seen only 1 low money map for each personally. And 1 replay in ts. Thus 2 ts games in total.

 

All other games where moneymoneymoney. While i hate that.

[Jacko]

It is true that low money shifts the strategy. While until now i have seen more money maps ( which is a bummer ) then normal games.

 

In ra, rs and dune2k. I have seen only 1 low money map for each personally. And 1 replay in ts. Thus 2 ts games in total.

 

All other games where moneymoneymoney. While i hate that.

 

This is your problem with any balancing, a lot of units/buildings are balanced by cost simply so you can't own 1000 of them, including air units and larger defense structures.

You take away the money limit and certain more powerful units become uncounterable, which is a bit dumb.

[X3M]

Indeed. That is why there should be a choice by the designer.

How much money for one set of units?

Then balance on that.

 

I have example calculations to show the difference between "equally" sized armies... If you are interested.

[VamPyroX]

X3M and VamPyroX do you guys play ts? Because you sound like RA/RA2 players.

Official maps:

All units have their timely purpose I think, I have seen players use bikes, devils and even stealth tanks. Bikes are mainly used against gdi for defense, someplayers try to rush with 5/6+ bikes as a surprise. I have seen but rarely stealth tanks also being used as  defense. Also STs used as a scout technique.

 

Orca Bombers are powerful but they are NOT fast at all compared to the regular Orcas and Nod Banshees. And in ggs I see bombers used most of the time for defense or killing of defense. And obviously if u have no SAMS or badly placed SAMs bombers do damage(obv player might just go for main buildings if there no sams etc). There is so many things to do, like a player sees his opp going bombers he would try to D up on a moderate/need-basis level and will also send waves of land attacks(Tits +inf)  or MK/Carryall attacks to have the other player use his bombs( this is just one scenario for instance). Nods can pop/dive with sub in pressuring the opp to keep his bombers for defense, especial sub with engies etc. What do you mean by 'splash'?

 

JJs(jumpjet inf) are very important , idk what you are talking about. In big maps very helpful with early scouts. They can be used to engage map units(like fiends). In terrace 2v2 sometimes it become really hard to scout for w/e reason people will send JJ to open up the opponent. It can be even made to just to F*** with the opponents head, opp might give in to early defense even when there is no imminent attack.

 

And dont talk about cost etc...Because money/economy is a very important part of TS so if someone is going for tech and just powerful air units, is not a good idea especially if the opponent might do a variety of attacks, the player might just end up using his 'expensive' and 'powerful' air units for defense. Lets say if a Nod player is thinking I need to get bans fast so he  can defense against early GDI disruptor attack and eventually have 10 of them to KO the opponent. Decent opp will either try to get the Nod players pads or even just send mass titans to make him use his bans that hes been stacking. Every game can be very diff in TS, have to go with the flo. Its hard to reach that level but we see good players very often doing crazy shit.

 

And air units are not, that 'fast'. They obv have to be faster than all ground and subterrean units so in that way its normal. And on other note, you cant compare bans to bombers at all.

It takes 10 banshees to kill an MCV, but it takes around 15+ to kill a defensive structure or powerplant or barracks. Just ONE Orcabomber can kill a defensive or a smaller structures(pp, barracks, sams, pads).Bans can target units more accurately, as for  the more powerful orca bomber, it can do damage more efficiently only if enemy units are stacked(hence, bombers). And imho SAMS are very powerful in TS.

 

(These are just simple examples that I have done/experienced, try watching some TS game recordings, might discover something more)

Cheers!

I play both TS and RA2. I prefer those over TD and RA.

 

My approach changes every time I play the game.

[Nyerguds]

Would CNCnet consider altering unit traits for balancing issues?

Balance is an eternal debate, though. Better not to touch it IMO.

[X3M]

Of course it is eternal. But if this community would communicate about what they find imbalanced. Than gradually a balance can be implemented.

If the wolverin and nod buggy are indeed to weak for taste. Simply add 10% more damage? And keep adding damage/health until the unit is used enough.

 

These small changes also occured for starcraft. And you know how well known the game is.

One central server observing the usage of all units. And only implement a change if it contains hardly used combat units.

 

My first input would be, return of the fog of war.

Limpet drone, vision +2, in field and on a targeted unit.

Because this unit is not used due to not having use.

[VamPyroX]

Of course it is eternal. But if this community would communicate about what they find imbalanced. Than gradually a balance can be implemented.

If the wolverin and nod buggy are indeed to weak for taste. Simply add 10% more damage? And keep adding damage/health until the unit is used enough.

 

These small changes also occured for starcraft. And you know how well known the game is.

One central server observing the usage of all units. And only implement a change if it contains hardly used combat units.

 

My first input would be, return of the fog of war.

Limpet drone, vision +2, in field and on a targeted unit.

Because this unit is not used due to not having use.

When you say "fog of war", what do you mean by that?

 

I've seen different kinds of fogs of war.

 

1.) It's completely black unless you visit that area, then it's exposed and remains exposed. One example would be in the old Westwood Command & Conquer games.

 

2.) It's completely black unless you visit that area, then it's exposed. However, it dims when you leave the area showing the last seen visual of that area... but not completely black. One example would be in Generals.

 

Is it one of those two or are there other types of fogs of wars you're referring to?

[X3M]

I have seen many, many different fogs of war.

 

1. It is black, you explore, it keeps explored. Most C&C games.

2. It is black, you explore, it slowly re-shrouds into black. An extra choice on the original RA skirmish.

3. It is black, you explore, it becomes grey and only the terrain is visible. An extra choice on the original TS skirmish. Most blizzard games have this.

4. It is explored but only the terrain is visible. Same as 3.

5. Everything is already explored.

 

Other games like warzone2100, EBfD and C&C3 allow the host to even choose one of the above.

 

Now looking at number 3. It is for that purpose that the limpet drone is introduced. However, the choice is there in cncnet, but it doesn't work yet. Once it works, it is like the original game. That is why I suggested that. The only extra that I suggest is to give it +2 vision.

[X3M]

Someone suggested using the recon bikes for dealing with disruptor tanks.

So I decided to test this out.

Even though the first 3 got emp'ed and dealt with. I decided to see what happens when 3 disruptor tanks don't get emp'ed. That... didn't go to well.

 

Disk Throwers, aren't they a little bit too overpowered?

 

A good (and obvious)  combination that I didn't use for a long time seems to be useful in multiplayer. Reapers + Flame Tanks. Huray! This beats Disk Throwers.

[VamPyroX]

There's nothing useless in TS. I've used wolverine rushes as a humiliation strategy. Everything is good for something. Even the limpet drone. Lulz.

You have a point there.

 

There are some people out there that have learned to master things that may seem useless to the rest of us.

 

I've seen the least played most hated character in fighting games used by only one person and they play these characters extremely well.

 

It's just a matter of dedication and skill.

 

I've seen someone do an engineer rush to a point where it was so overwhelming that they overcame their enemy.

[Sol]

The wolverine is not being used because it is unnecessary. There is no need for an anti-infantry-vehicle, as (almost) every other unit you can build in the gdi warfactory can run over infantry anyway. Also the APC is more useful for scouting. I like the game how it is, in my opinion the only proper way to "fix" the wolverine would be to remove it completely. But then, where is the downside to just not make any? And using it to humiliate your enemy is a good point actually.

[X3M]

Every useless unit is good for humiliation. I often used mass infantry, just for the fun of it.

Victims do not dear to speak of their last 15 minutes (since infantry takes so long to destroy a base)

 

I also tried out the flame tank, is it just me? Or is this tank weak as well? 1 even looses to 6 rifle infantry when they are spread out.