Red Alert and Tiberian Sun ladder map discussion

[FunkyFr3sh]

Which maps should be available in the first ladder?

And what about the settings? I guess we should force all new game options like mcv undeploy to be turned off, or not? Crates?

 

Should we make all standard maps available or you guys think it is better to filter out some of them?

[fir3w0rx]

Everything should be available because as long as both players agree to the conditions, it's fair. I think what's more important is:

 

-how many points are awarded/deducted per win/loss

-when does the ladder reset (every month? week?)

-should a player that plays only one map over and over, get less points compared to someone who plays every map?

-should you be allowed to rack up points by just repeatedly playing the same (less skilled) player? what's the limit?

-maybe have bonus points. For example: +100 points if you played the most games during the month/week. Or +20 if you played on more than 20 maps.

 

These are just some examples and are very brief, each point can be broken down further.

 

A message about this post (with a link) should pop up in the lobby every time you log in, and every 10 minutes or so after that, imo, because a leaderboard is a big update.

[MattAttack]

-should a player that plays only one map over and over, get less points compared to someone who plays every map?

-should you be allowed to rack up points by just repeatedly playing the same (less skilled) player? what's the limit?

-maybe have bonus points. For example: +100 points if you played the most games during the month/week. Or +20 if you played on more than 20 maps.

 

I have 0 experience with ladders, but these sound like good ideas to me... I particularly like the bonus for playing a variety of maps.

[Tahj]

-how many points are awarded/deducted per win/loss

-when does the ladder reset (every month? week?)

-should a player that plays only one map over and over, get less points compared to someone who plays every map?

-should you be allowed to rack up points by just repeatedly playing the same (less skilled) player? what's the limit?

-maybe have bonus points. For example: +100 points if you played the most games during the month/week. Or +20 if you played on more than 20 maps.

• We're using Elo rating, so it's based on the points of both players. Players will gain more points by playing others around their skill level. Lower skilled players that defeat higher skilled players, will gain more points.
  
• Currently we're setup to reset every month.
  
• I don't think this would be fair to those that prefer a certain map. If we agree that all maps should be allowed, then I don't think we should get into the business of penalizing map choices.
  
• Currently, there's no limit; but again, playing the same (less skilled) player will yield lower points.
  
• I'd like to explore this idea further. I think this could really make an impact on rankings at the end of a given month.
  

Which maps should be available in the first ladder?

And what about the settings? I guess we should force all new game options like mcv undeploy to be turned off, or not? Crates?

 

Should we make all standard maps available or you guys think it is better to filter out some of them?

I love the idea of having standardized settings for the ladder

I've listed my personal preference below for TS. So long as we have the map cheat detection in place, I don't see the harm in allowing any map. Players have the choice to accept/decline the map selection. I think further down the road (perhaps when we consider QM), we could revisit the map pool. Just my opinion of course

 

Tiberian Sun

• Bases Allowed: true
  
• Crates: false
  
• Harvester Truce: false
  
• Bridges Destroyable: true
  
• Multiple Factory: true
  
• MCV Redeploy: false
  
• Short Game: true
  
• Multi Engineer: true
  

[F0odLi0n]

For the game settings. Would those be optional? I know the Multi Fact is highly used in Red Alert, but is not highly used on Tiberian Sun. I'm down for what ever, just throwing the idea out there to make it optional on TS.

 

Cheers

-F0odLi0n

[fir3w0rx]

I highly disagree with setting Multiple Factory to true. Not having this build speed multiplier is one of the things that make TS very different from the others as unit spam is limited. This is the root cause of unit spam (which is fine in other games because big tank battles are awesome, but I think it'll ruin TS). But that's just me.

[Nyerguds]

Multi engi in TS? Ew.

[Tahj]

I highly disagree with setting Multiple Factory to true. Not having this build speed multiplier is one of the things that make TS very different from the others as unit spam is limited.

 

I thought this setting just enabled the ability to produce another MVC (as some maps disallow this). I didn't realize there was a speed multiplier attached? If so, I agree that it should be false.

 

Multi engi in TS? Ew.

 

It's become somewhat of a default setting for most players lol

[fir3w0rx]

I highly disagree with setting Multiple Factory to true. Not having this build speed multiplier is one of the things that make TS very different from the others as unit spam is limited.

I thought this setting just enabled the ability to produce another MVC (as some maps disallow this). I didn't realize there was a speed multiplier attached? If so, I agree that it should be false.

No, you need a Tech Center to be able to make additional MCVs. Which maps don't allow this?

 

Multi engi in TS? Ew.

It's become somewhat of a default setting for most players lol

Stopping 3 engineers is hard enough in TS, let alone 1!

[Tahj]

No, you need a Tech Center to be able to make additional MCVs. Which maps don't allow this?

 

Yes, I know this

There are many mod maps however, that don't allow the additional MCV even when tech'd up. I just assumed this is what the "Multiple Factory" option allowed/disallowed.

[Guest ehy]

-

[Humble]

This for the WW one, and a separate ladder for all other settings:

[RC1985]

-should a player that plays only one map over and over, get less points compared to someone who plays every map?

-maybe have bonus points......Or +20 if you played on more than 20 maps.

 

A message about this post (with a link) should pop up in the lobby every time you log in, and every 10 minutes or so after that, imo, because a leaderboard is a big update.

 

These are great points by fireworks and I second them. Since the purpose of the ladder is to give a fair, objective assessment of how good a player is, then it's only logical that knowledge of a variety of maps should be an important criterion in the assessment. Too many (RA) 'pros' know only 1-3 maps which they keep playing every day all day and they think they're pro just by that ("oh these are 'pro' maps, I play only "pro" maps, I don't play other "nub" maps zzz). Because of this we not only got extremely inaccurate rankings in the past (done by gut feel of these 'pros'), and players who are really great in other maps don't get the credit and ranking they deserve.

 

Another awesome thing about this is that it discourages dodging, something that loads of RA players do when confronted with a map they're unfamiliar with.

 

Of course the maps should be legit - no crates or maps that have their rules.ini modified. For maps that have spot disadvantages or money asymmetry, then a ranked match should have players having alternating between spots (it's the best way I can think of at this moment, and I know it's silly to have a best of competition of even numbers, it should be odd...)

 

Maybe we could have a bonus for players who take on aftermath games as well. The game changes a lot when aftermath is enabled; a true pro should have sufficiently diverse knowledge and also acumen to think fast in situations he's unfamiliar with and make good decisions.

[Guest ehy]

-

[Humble]

I think giving more/less points based on the rating of the player you just beat, would be enough to prevent people 'dodging'.

 

If for example the #1 rank avoids #2 and #3, the points could be setup to make it harder for #1 to remain at top (but differences in maps would have to be taken into account, like a WW map player won't be playing a mod map player just because they are similar rank.  this is why i think there should be one ladder for WW maps and a separate one for mod maps)

[Holland]

[TS]

In my opinion, only the original WW maps should be allowed to play tournaments in, just like on the old westwood server. Because then, new and mod players will learn how to play them. And that's just the best way of learning TS. I've seen new players become really good cuz they only play terraces.

Allowing mod maps for ladders can rather be done after the ladder option is launched, cuz it can cause disagreements and discussions. Maybe to have a mod map in a vote-bar, so that it could be inspected, or TWO tourny options as u start a game: WW tourny, or MOD tourny. And all the options are just left to discuss for the players themselfs, there shouldn't be a fixed options, only disable 'Allies Allowed' and perhaps Multiple Factory, cuz TS is not build for that.

 

Besides the laddering, I personally LOVE a huge prepared tournament will all players. When that was launched on TS last year, I've never been so excited for TS!! Perhaps somebody has a idea how to make that an auto- thing?

[Holland]

[glow=red,2,300]1[/glow]- how many points are awarded/deducted per win/loss

[glow=red,2,300]2[/glow]-when does the ladder reset (every month? week?)

[glow=red,2,300]3[/glow]-should a player that plays only one map over and over, get less points compared to someone who plays every map?

[glow=red,2,300]4[/glow]-should you be allowed to rack up points by just repeatedly playing the same (less skilled) player? what's the limit?

[glow=red,2,300]5[/glow]-maybe have bonus points. For example: +100 points if you played the most games during the month/week. Or +20 if you played on more than 20 maps.

---

[glow=red,2,300]1[/glow]- Can you guys get the info from the credits at the end of a game? Because Westwood created the points statistics perfectly. and you can add that to the ladder. A win should be just 1 win point, and a loss should be 1 loss point, and points from credits decide the diffrence between players with the same win/lose score.

 

[glow=red,2,300]2[/glow]- Every month.

 

[glow=red,2,300]3[/glow]- No, not if only Westwood maps. (Or make mod maps 0.5 winning points)

 

[glow=red,2,300]4[/glow]- Good question!! This happened alot in Westwood server! I think a 3 limit a day.

 

[glow=red,2,300]5[/glow]- Thats a great idea!! Best to make a top 5, I think: "Most games played: 10 points" Second one, 5, third, 3, 2,1 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, LOL!! or maybe a top hunderd, so that people will play more!! But not only 1 player!

 

 

[Humble]

"or TWO tourny options as u start a game: WW tourny, or MOD tourny. And all the options are just left to discuss for the players themselfs, there shouldn't be a fixed options, only disable 'Allies Allowed' and perhaps Multiple Factory, cuz TS is not build for that."

 

I agree with this 100%

 

 

 

I think though that to help prevent people from making new logins on the forums and using them to help their friends get 'free points', that it would also be very beneficial to award MORE points for beating a higher ranked player and LESS points for beating a lower ranked player, to SOME extent.

 

 

Maybe 3 points for beating top 5 players

2 points for beating top 15 players

3 points for beating anyone lower?

[RC1985]

Haven't played much these days but did a number of ladder games. Here's what I experienced:

 

1) seems like we can choose whether to make a game a ladder match or not. Since the ladder's objective is to discourage people from dodging and talking bs, making ladder matches optional will give them a chance to do just that

2) so it takes real balls to get in the ring and climb the ladder. Mad respect to guys like robskate (EDIT - croboys been running away) for this.

3) for now it's lacking support from the 'pros', I've seen a number calling it gay / noob / etc. this is cos they see many unfamiliar names at the top, or cos really they're just pussies who don't 1v1 and shout bs while hiding in a corner.

 

We'll need maybe a month or so until the true 'pros' get to the top 10, but if ladder games are optional then we won't see that happening but then again there's that need for practice games once in a while...ah nothing's perfect in this world

[Humble]

For the Tiberian Sun ladder, we need TWO separate ladders:

 

One for WESTWOOD MAPS

 

One for MOD MAPS

[Nyerguds]

For the Tiberian Sun ladder, we need TWO separate ladders:

 

One for WESTWOOD MAPS

 

One for MOD MAPS

What about non-westwood non-mod maps?

[Humble]

You have a good point friend, but it gets hard to decide.

 

One thing for sure is that the players sexpro and kaizen are 1v1 bunch of random newbs to try and get first, meanwhile trz and ollie and kapa and other good players get banned when trying to play them.

 

[FunkyFr3sh]

The elo math will punish those who don't play against other good players and it's slowly starting to show its strength

[Humble]

From other thread -----v  Lot of overlap in discussions.

 

A simple solution that keeps popping up in these threads is to have two separate ladders:

 

-One ladder which allows the host to select from WW maps, as well as maybe some fair WW-like maps, like The Pit, Atombomb's map, or even my map Throwback.

 

Terraces would obviously be the dominant map in this ladder, but there would be option for variety, such as Dueling Islands, Forest Fires, etc, etc.

 

The main point with this ladder would be maps that require economy management, expanding to more money, no modified units or such, etc, etc.... classic Tib. Sun style game-play.

 

This would be the primary ladder among the 'pros' who play the game the way it was meant to be played.

 

-A separate ladder which allows the host to select from mod maps, possibly being limited to maps that do not modify units, but I am not much of a 'modder' so I cannot really comment on that.  Maybe it really wouldn't matter, I don't know.  Maybe some seasoned 'modders' (nodrescue?) could chime in.

 

I am fairly certain my proposal would be cool with the very large majority of TS.

 

Very nice -----v

 

The elo math will punish those who don't play against other good players and it's slowly starting to show its strength

[Holland]

*an extra add-on*

I hope this isn't too much asked for the programmers, but to give it a little twist, what would you think of this: "A list of all played maps, with a ladder for each map". Just as an extra!  :laugh:

 

With this extra list, you can see and meet up with people who like to play the maps you enjoy playing too. This means more gameplay and competitions. Me and the other pro map makers (TS) can see a big chunk of players LOVE to play our maps (compstomps, tower defenses, mod maps ("Giants of war") etc.). If we could have a list to see who likes what, we can improve maps and make better ones, creating more variety thus attracting more people!  :mammoth: :sethisdeath: