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Debate on competition


Myg
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The topic of "Competition being corrosive to the community" has come up and I think a full discussion of it might be good.

 

My position is that competition by itself is not toxic but the desecration of dignity in the view of the mind (subtle disgust and breaking of social norms) can lead to people feeling that the intent of it is bad. Take for example the people who want to be 'on top', who play to the detriment of their personal cohesion by putting too much time into the game: These people can scare off the 'normal' who only play with a casual intent (even if they may be good) by sheer presence. That can be a problem.

 

What is the everyone's view on the issue?

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I think it's kind of annoying that the creation of actual measured competition attracts cheaters... though I've had people disconnect on me before too, while there was no value whatsoever in disconnecting. Some people just really can't handle defeat I guess, even in completely no-stakes games :S

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I'm of the opinion that CnCNet is currently not capable of hosting a true (read 'as fair as possible') competition, because it lacks the control mechanisms for it. Even with anti-cheat features, it seems to me that there is no real control over the maps being played, no criteria by which they can be divided into 'competitive' and 'fun/imba' maps, this directly referencing Myg's other recent topic. No real authority exists to settle disputes. Also, the hacked games offer huge advantages to players via the hi-res patches. I, f.ex., play TD in 640x400, not because I can't go higher, but because I like the game that way, it's more intense and I'm used to seeing it that way. But it certainly makes it much harder for me to play against people running TD in 1366x768 or something, who see more than 4X the map I see.

 

Even though these issues can easily be resolved through the client, the resolution still needs that actual authority, a body of top players/mapmakers/etc. to define strict rules, practices and mapsets. As for toxic players, who invest too much, I hold the belief that people eventually do grow up and move on. Ignoring and muting them (we called those speechless guys fish in Wchat) is probably a better approach than outright banning and similar public executions, even though the mistreated might not feel vindicated that way.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Sorry to bump a slightly old topic.

 

Indeed, I've thought about this before, that if we wanted to have a true competition of sorts, ladder or otherwise, you'd need strict rules on how it's played.

-What maps are used

-Resolution it's played on

-Starting Creds and other options

 

We simply don't have this on CnCnet and it's arguable that even if you did, that type of competition would not actually be helpful to the community.

Honestly, if people wanted to make a tournament, they could always just set it up over the forums anyway (it's been done for TD before) and just state what the rules are and have the results posted up.

 

I've often had people leave or say they're not good enough to face me and then just leave shortly after, without giving me the time to say that "it's fine" and/or give advice about the game.

I can understand feeling overwhelmed by high end players and I hope that they return, as I've seen people of literally all levels of skill come in (I actually had a guy that had NEVER played before, he build a sandbag first).

 

More importantly than people feeling overwhelmed by skill, I think, is if players take the time to be kind to such people and offer some friendly advice. We still have a some who will tell people that they're terrible at the game etc, put them down. THIS is the real damage.

 

The lobby rules are a kind of joke. I left a game, the other day, and jokingly swore in main about my harvester going for a long walk around the map (erg, harv AI, lol). Of course, I got a 5min ban for it, lol.

 

BUT, others who are being simply terrible, at times where an admin is not watching/not about, will actually verbally attacking random people. Sometimes it joking, but often it's not. Here lies the true issue. I don't really see a way to stop it other than bans, but I do feel like people often get banned for reasons that I don't think was needed, while those who need to be banned are not.

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Ranked competition does, indeed, attract cheating. No-one can dispute that. I can guarantee that as soon as a game gets its ladder you will have people firing up their OllyDBG, WinDBG and IDAPro's, creating new cheats or modifying old cheats to work again.

 

This is, as always, at the cost of the casual fair-player like myself. Who will then get "GG OwN3d, eazy".

 

But that's not to say that I think competition is not viable. I do believe competition is possible. What has to be put in place before competition can thrive, though, is a proper anti-cheat with definite 100 % cheat detection and that's not an easy task. Before you have this, don't even bother with competition, you'll only be driving away players. I'd be willing to help you out, I'm a developer, I have created cheats in the past (the most destructive cheat for competition ever made for RA2 & YR), but I wouldn't help out for free either, sorry, time is money, but you know that already.

 

 

 

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If you don't like competitive games then don't play on the ladder...

 

We're not saying we dislike it or avoiding it, we're discussing the effects it has on the community. That's why the title is Debate.

 

To me, having a ladder is fine but the users does not have a professional or positive behavior to be given this feature.

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compition increases things and decreases things is good itll strenghten every1 almost definetely here 1 way or another as far as your longgg game is concerned yeah alot of peoples minds are not consistent when they are playing a game for fun and most people grow up instead of devolve i mean look at syralax he quit being malicious and is trying to make cash kinda like pharm companies are looking to on job train/hire the guy walking out of the methadone clinic

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