10 map rejections issue

[c0rpsmakr]

Here's a question that I have for whomever is responsible for the ladder map choices- being that there is exactly 10 map rejections allowed, and exactly 10 maps with these shitty veteran additions, you have forced players to decide between allowing skewed mods (mods like giants of war, grays 3v3  with excessive alterations to either power, income, or the tiberium field) and playing these vet maps. Now, being that I was never asked if I was okay with any of these changes, nor do I recall any topic or announcement being made to inquire about community input regarding putting veteran maps on the ladder, who decided it was okay to have so many included without the option to NOT play them? 

[Weaponx]

There was a vote, and people voted for MIX maps including VET, and majority voted more for VET.

Dont know where you was, but it has already been done.

Vet is fine.

[c0rpsmakr]

Mods, please remove the irrelevant posts from this topic so it doesn't get derailed into a spiral of bullshit, thanks.

19 hours ago, Weaponx said:

There was a vote, and people voted for MIX maps including VET, and majority voted more for VET.

Dont know where you was, but it has already been done.

Vet is fine.

I was in the poll with the map choices, but it didn't say that the maps included were veteran maps. When a disruptor upgraded can 1 shot a main building from a distance, no, veteran units are not fine. No unit should be able to be that powerful, or even an mk/cc 3 shotting a building.

[Weaponx]

Dunno which mods you have been playing but a STAR cc on vet can not 3 shot an building. That was the very 1st vet, on the balanced vet it cant.

I still think the mix or vet and none vet is fine, just as it is now. I just prefer some maps be modified so all players can expand, or one player doesnt get 3 tib trees and blue tib, while the other gets 1tib  tree.

 

 

[c0rpsmakr]

I've had multiple games in the last 2-3 days where my disruptor kills 3-4 main buildings and then gains the ability to 1 shot main buildings from a distance, that is absurd and shouldn't happen.

Edited August 27, 2019 by c0rpsmakr

[FunkyFr3sh]

Just checked humbles wiki:

 

https://github.com/HumbleTS/Balance-Veteran-Patch/wiki/Balance-Veteran-Summary

 

How fast do you get the star?

[Weaponx]

6x time value for units to get star instead of 10x. (which is fair, 10 takes forever)

Also how do you keep a Disr to kill 6x value, have you been newb bashing or are the players just clueless to kill a disr? 

Those STAR  upgrades are normal btw, only thing which is different is only have to kill 6x value to get it.

 

So are your complain about the 6x value to get star, or is it the  star Disr is  2 strong, even it always has been in TS ?

 

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Weaponx

[c0rpsmakr]

2 standard forest fires games ive had where i 1 reffed and took out a few main buildings allowed me to get a dis that is capable of 1 shotting a building from a distance, as I've said. The alterations to veteran status allow this, and I'm highly annoyed by a few people being able to alter the state of the game for the entirety of ts. I've expressed this before, but this is far too much. 

[Hungry Mike]

Just now, FunkyFr3sh said:

Just checked humbles wiki:

 

https://github.com/HumbleTS/Balance-Veteran-Patch/wiki/Balance-Veteran-Summary

 

How fast do you get the star?

Humble says Cyborgs, Medics and Obelisks are garbadge. I completely disagree with him. "Pro matches" can be mod matches, too. And in these mod matches, many pros get rekt by Cyborgs or Obelisks. His "patch" shouldnt be forced for Ts players.

[en3rgy52]

On the map issue alone, there should be a "classic " map ladder and a "mod" map ladder with standard maps only in the former and giants et al in the latter. The issue of VET is a different one, personally, I think the game should be left as is. Unit upgrades were never a fundamental part of the game and should be removed from the ladder. There have always been balance issues with the game and this is a much more sensitive topic. What we shouldn't be doing is fragmenting the community, which to some extent, has already started to happen with players refusing to play with or without the balance changes. My feeling is that the majority would prefer to keep it as it is. 

[Tibermach]

Yeah separate mod from original. I first thought a mix would be ok but I've not seen many modders play the ladder to be fair and most who play the ladder really don't wanna play stupid mod maps... best to separate then the modders have their own ladder and the ww crew have theirs. 

 Prefer all standard maps as the pool and no rejections. Be much better more variety. And separation of the modders and ww just like normal... cus modders generally don't like ww maps and vice versa. 

Then when the ww ladder is quiet we can jump on modders if we get bored enough... and again vice versa... 

 

 

[Tibermach]

If you think about vet tho, if it takes so much to vet it up then you should be able to 3 shot buildings with a cc ... if ofcourse it was normal amount to get it to star, as they lowered the value before it gets star then it should be much weaker because it wasn't as hard to get... I guess that was the whole idea of vet, it takes you ages to get it but if you do the rewards are immense... now it doesn't take long to get it and the rewards are still too high... please patch and balance the vet to reflect this... make star units weak again! 

Vet to me is just a lil for fun meme thing which shouldn't be replacing original at all. 

[Weaponx]

I think people have misunderstood the  "VET" concept.

A star disr can 1shot a building from a distance on None Vet.

A star cc can not 3 shot a building on vet or normal.

Vet just put the kill value down to 6x instead of 10x for units to achieve star, which is not a bad thing. It takes to long to get an star unit.

As for corps case, if he plays any decent player, there is 90% chance they wont let him  use same disr / pick it up. He never had a star disr vs me, so if he got it in a game, the player most be really bad.

All the star units have exactly same damage value as they would on none vet map, nothing there has been changed.

Did people even read the vet changes? its minor changes to a few units.

 

 

[Humble]

In TS, the majority of units either had veteran upgrades that did not make sense (like star Dis and Mk acting like 5 harv bombs when they die), or did not have anything.  It is clear if you look at the standard veteran upgrades (like Bike getting MLRS weapon), etc, etc, that they simply were working on it and rushed the game to release.  The goal of the Vet part of the Vet/Bal. patch was to apply upgrades that made sense and were worth the trouble of not kamikaze your units and actually trying to save them.

10x kill of unit value is absolutely insane, and not possible in 99.5% of any realistic games.  I have asked many players if they think it should be maybe 3.5x or 4x instead of 3, but almost everyone is happy with 3x.  I personally have no problem making it a little harder, but it is a fine line TBH.

The star disruptor may be a special case, since its 20% weapon increase is standard among almost all vet weapon upgrades across the board.  In the next day or two I will update the Vet/Bal patch and remove the weapon upgrade part of the disruptor's 2nd (star) upgrade since it seems to be a bit OP.

Something to keep in mind is that I did not just release the vet/bal patch after working on it by myself, but did a whole lot of testing and getting feedback from players like redrum, sky, cam, the germans (who like everything about it besides nod being a bit buffed, but they don't play nod for a reason), mola, trooper, so many other high level players.  It doesn't help that players like tiber, corps, trz, honda, pogba are extremely close minded or simply have suggestions like "make nod power plants 2x more power (SUPER OP), or "make nod units NEVER miss" (super OP), or "game is best left broken, its ok that 99% of people don't play nod anymore now that the average GDI player is a mini-titan joe".  As far as corps suggestion of star dis being too strong, that is actually helpful suggestion and I will update the patch to nerf it a bit, like I did the star MK back in the day.  As far as star CC goes, its super hard to get even with the buff of it not missing moving targets as much.

 One issue with NOD is that the devil tongue cannot receive upgrades due to its weapon being fire.  It would be hard to really say if tongue/stealth tank are either or both somewhat comparable to the GDI dis, but it wouldn't hurt to nerf the star dis I don't think.

I will also change the 3x kill value per upgrade (meaning 6x to get star unit) to 3.5x (meaning 7x) to get upgrade, or if enough people prefer it I can make it 4x (8x to star), but in prior testing, this value really is a fine line.  Either way, 10x (20x) is absolutely ridiculous in high level games.  Maybe if you are newb bashing it's fine, but the point of vet is to be able to sacrifice kamikaze attacks for the long run, and having high risk to reward.

I have always asked for a check box to enable/disable vet/bal, but it seems it wold be hard for CNCNET to implement, which is why we have the vet/bal map section.

The fact that 70-80% of players voted for vet maps or both vet/normal maps (because they are usually more open minded than the few stubborn players) says a lot, and keep in mind although many players are not as used to playing vs. nod as they are vs. gdi, the more they do play vs. nod, the better they get vs. it.  Nod requires more micro than a titan pumping Gdi player, and even with the buffs to nod in the vet/bal patch, it is still the underdog, just a little less so.

A lot of players simply don't like playing vs. nod because they are so used to playing "Terraces - Titan Wars", and although a lot of people here do Not know it, it Is a fact that a decent sized handful of oldschool elite Nod players have indeed come to CNCNET over the past 5 years or so and either gave up on Nod or played it significantly less.  It is rare that an oldschool nod player like mola comes back, grinds for months and months, adapts his build orders, and accepts loosing the majority of their games, until they adapt to the increased FPS on CNCNET (XWIS/WOL was 52 FPS BTW, and its 60 now).  As far as players like trz who have played nod for the past 10 years or whatever, and had the advantage of gradually adapting from 52 to 60 FPS by being active 99% of the time, that is great for them and there certainly are players nowadays that are good at nod, but can it be denied that even the good nod players have trouble supporting their team mates in 2v2, and do better in 1v1?  

There are so many players that back on xwis/wol days played nod way more often, look at examples like when k2 came back, or t2, or lucho who was pretty decent with nod in the later days of xwis, or any of the other nod players, the majority of them (besides a few hardcore nod players) just go to GDI.  The speed change is (whether everyone will admit it or not) a big issue for a lot of oldschool nod players, who defended heavily on micro multiple attacks/defending with multiple groups.  Just look at nod unit positioning, bikes, tanks, rockets have to be properly positioned to land their hits, this all requires a lot more micro.

Even on big maps like FF, GDI still does absolutely fine vs NOD even with the vet/bal patch.  Some people don't like the veins added on FF, but the chem facility is so easy to blow, and if a NOD player is using chem missiles on you on that map you are either played skilled nod player that pulled it off, or you are just being trolled since you are already light-years behind.  I personally find it hilarious that a lot of players (myself included) don't even play nod (unless messing around) and have no problem playing vs nod players on the vet/bal maps.  Some people don't like the competition?  How often do any of you see me go nod in a serious tezz game?  How often am I on a team against a solid nod player like mola, trz, corps?

Anyways, do sum it up, I will nerf the star disruptor, and increase the 3x unit kill - upgrade ratio to 3.5x or 4x, and the majority of good players prefer vet and are willing to play both but don't enjoy the drama conversations here in the forums obviously.

[Humble]

One more thing: I find it absolutely hilarious when players like corps or honda complain that 'Sam site range is too much on vet map'.  Sam range is the exact same, and if you bothered to spend 3 minutes reading the link that CNCNET sends you every time you start a game, it would be obvious.  It is very hard to take feedback from people that clearly don't know what they are talking about.

It's a joke to think that medic, cyborg, wolverine, obelisk, etc., were meant to be not used in 99.9% of games, obviously Westwood did not finish tweaking a lot of the game, and its clear almost no one has actually looked at the differences between when the game first came out, and the original-2.03 patches.  Did you know cyborg used to be stronger, and was nerfed (a bit too much).  Did you know the vet/bal patch does not make it as strong as it used to be, but puts it somewhere in-between the original and the 2.03?  If you guys read the rules.ini file you can see the comments they made when updating the game as well as see comments like their updating the ION storm code and see that they listed the code backwards and made it do more damage to nod units on accident, based on what they said they meant to do (listing the armour types backwards), etc.

[mjvd2019]

Everything stated above is valid, just don't agree when you call people stubborn or close minded, some people just like the game how it has been for the last 20 years or so, it doesn't matter if it's unbalanced or unfair. 

As for the updates WW would make, I guess we will never know right?

Like I said in the other topic, make all the changes you guys want, just give the other  5/10/20/30% whatever,the right to choose if they want it patched or not, making some option or something . As long the changes aren't permanently it's fine for me.

In my view, no one is right or wrong on this matter, some people just want a different game(updated) and others want it original. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by mjvd2019

[c0rpsmakr]

I've already said everything I've had to say for the most part three times over in the past. But I will address the fact that you, Humble, said that I'm stubborn or close-minded, suggested doubling nod's power, and said sam site range is upgraded, when in fact I'm neither close-minded and never said either of those.

What I SUGGESTED probably 3-4 months ago, when you all were trying to yet again change the way ts has fundamentally been for the past 20 years, was if I were to mod my own version of ts with any balance updates, I would ENTERTAIN the idea of reducing nod's power plant costs by $100, so a standard pp would be $200, and an adv pp would be $400, which is a slight change, but possibly enough so to allow nod to have extra time to make other defensive structures, being that nod has no early powerful defensive structures (gdi's rpg), in order to compensate for the need to pop out additional static defense. But yet again, this was nothing but an idea for MY OWN MOD if i were to ever make one, and not force it upon everyone else. 

The thing that those of you feeling the need to make alterations dont understand is, none of you have the "right" to make a game that's been the same way for years suddenly different. You are not the creators, this isn't your game, and as much as you think you know what needs to be done to improve it (balance changes, veteran changes, whatever aside from obvious game glitches/errors) it is your opinion. TS isn't any more your game than any other player, whether they pick it up tomorrow or someone who's been playing much longer than you. If you want to set your own games with these maps that you created and try to influence others to do the same, fine, but make sure it doesn't affect the ladder, which should be impartial to anybody's preferences (aka unaltered, regular maps).

Edited August 29, 2019 by c0rpsmakr

[Humble]

You didn't say that NOD sam range should be increased, you said that you didn't like vet maps because 'same range increased' just the other day in the game with tiger, trz and us, and that is what I was referring to.

[c0rpsmakr]

I was questioning if sams in general shot further, because bm was gdi, yes, it seemed as if it shot further but it wasn't a 100% matter of fact thing, but I guess that's not the case. Regardless, that's not what I'm concerned with.

Edited August 29, 2019 by c0rpsmakr

[Tibermach]

Yeh keep ts classic and original as possible.  You can always have a mod map for the special players. That's all. 

 

 

 

 

[Weaponx]

Corps you are stopping ts, so what does it matter to you?

Keep vet on ladder, and let the small 5% of players whine about it. End of story.

The majority of players don´t whining and  don't mind.

 

PS: The "creators" left the game (which needed fixing, it was not complete, we see that with alt, bug build, stealing units with inf etc and other bugs), servers and everything, and let an outside source take over. Now the outside source can decide how they want to run the show.

its that simple.

 

Everything humble said is true and makes sense. Deal with it.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Weaponx

[mjvd2019]

Sorry mate but that seems a little selfish  and egocentrical of you. 

Even if it's only 1% of the community that doesn't agree with the changes, that 1% still has a voice, is this a dictatorship? Hope not... And Corps has a word in this matter like everyone else, even if he doesn't play anymore. 

In my country we have a saying, dunno if you guys have it too, that says:"your liberty ends where the others liberty starts". So now we just have to accept the permanent changes because you guys say it's better? 

As I see it, noone has the right to change the game to this extent, like I said before, change it but give the other part of the community the possibility to play the game like they know it. 

Don't  forget , that you guys need that "small part of the community" (I don't know the numbers but I'll trust you guys on this one) . Ts community isn't stable, has ups and downs, in those 5% are players that kept  the game alive (majority of them pros or good players) , if those guys leave, will be lesser competition for you guys, can you imagine playing everyday the same guys? Like a few here, I was here since 99 and seen a lot of changes, seen servers completely empty, wanting to play and having like 2 more guys(fatboyeno, damn I miss that guy, and cactuar21) to play everyday, sad times to be honest, hurts just to remember lol, and now I see you guys wanting to devide the community again. If those changes go permanent I think Ts will be over for good. 

What humble said its true, but to whom? Me, you, everyone? I don't think so, you guys can't talk for everyone. 

Just to finish my thought. Today the people that want the changes are the majority (like I said I don't know the numbers) and you guys implement those updates because you have more votes than the rest but imagine that in a near future the majority of the community want flying oblisks and subterranean disruptors? Makes sense? Will you guys that want the changes today also agree?You are doing your own changes today why not make other changes tomorrow? Because in a few years you might aswell change the name of the game, as soon as the changes start will be no stop to it. 

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by mjvd2019

[c0rpsmakr]

It doesn't matter that I'm leaving, that doesn't make TS yours or anyone else's to mess with for everyone else. I still care about this game, which is why I've spent an immeasurable amount of time teaching so many players for YOU, mola, and the rest of the community to play with after I'm gone. Nothing you said is a sensible response to what I pointed out; if you and the people wanting to make changes want to play with your veteran upgrades, cool, make your own mod or set your ffgs and do so. 

 

Also glad to see you back mjvd :). (Sidenote: i completely forgot/miss cactuar)

[Tibermach]

That's right ts will not be ts before long and to some old players it's not TS with the changes that have already been made.

You've got to call it a day with all this balance veteran total game changing nonsense. It's great to have the maps for a bit of fun and to see what TS could have been... what TS probably should have been but wasnt... TS is what it is... a few minor changes for certain glitches makes sense but changing unit attributes in vain attempts to balance a 20 year old game which has stood the test of time already is lunacy.  If you want to do this then call it "TS WHAT It SHOULD HAVE BEEN" (according to 6 players who agreed with each other) ((Modification of classic original TS)) cus that's what it will eventually become..

The harvester thing then the alt on barrack thing... I forget what other things... it all detracts from TS authenticity though. Minor and pointless changes really. No need to start messing with unit attributes permanently aswell... That's all. 

[Weaponx]

How is it a dictatorship, if only 5% doesnt want it and 95% does? Thats the definition of democracy.

Corps if you not going to play, stfu and stay the fuck away? the players who are going  play the game, have a VOTE.since it will effect them. Your comments are irrelevant just like you.  

The people you trained all failed hard, who the hell have you trained who is actually decent?

I dont like you corps never have, since your delusional rager, enough said.

The changes are minor, like in every game, changes happened for the greater good. Games gets buffed and nerfed, this is the way. The majority of players now play veteran.

Did anyone actuelly read the veteran buffs? its like 5 units in total, 2 at gdi and 3 at nod, with minor buffs, like cyborg +1 range. Is that a game changer? no it isn't. None of the buffs are game changers, so you need 3 (instead of 2) titans to kill a cc, is that worth crying about? (PS: 2 titans with a skilled player can still kill a CC in vet, enough said?) .

*Damn the gate closes faster, its a game changer! Overpowered! ....

Steel maybe you forgot about the vote, with veteran maps, where the majority wanted vet in ladder. Also look at games played IG, majority plays vet.

Any how, people whining is 3 people here, where one decided not to play, is that it?

BTW: I cant stop laughing at idiots claiming STAR CC vet can 3 shot a building... or morons who claims ticks/sams have more range? They didn't even read the notes, just jump to conclusions, after they get raped IG.

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Weaponx