Yuri's Revenge Rebalanced 2.0

[CCCP84]

I believe that the power of the reactor should not be reduced. This is what I wanted to say in this post.
I agree about underutilized units. Let's reduce the price of chrono legionaire to 1200. And increase the range of the Destroyer Tank and Tesla Tank.

[xe3]

On 5/24/2021 at 9:35 PM, Ezer_2000 said:

Don't touch the spy. It's fine as it is. Change something else, but not spy.

Fine. Put a toggle button that disables it altogether. That way everyone's happy.

[dario03]

From what I've seen it seems like how good spies are is dependent on how many players are in the game and how teams are setup.

Seems like in a 1v1 game they are not that good since its a high cost and the opponent only has to watch you. Even if you sneak in to a barracks and warfactory you might not have the time to benefit from it because the opponent might rush you before you can build many upgraded units since you just spent a bunch on spies and probably two ifvs.

In a big free for all game there are more distractions and if not getting attacked early you can afford to send a spy or two. Even using some ifvs and a chronoshift is worth it since you might get to build tons of units during the match. 

So what if spies were changed to have a limited time benefit but costed less? Like make them cost half as much but you only get veteran units for a set amount of time or set amount of units or set amount of unit value?

Or what if again spies are cheaper but the enemy could do something that removed the benefit? Like destroying a battle lab, or barracks, or war factory, would remove the vet upgrade. Or make it so after infiltrating a building the player has to build a spy hq building to get the vet upgrade (if possible allow building this even without mcv). And if that building is destroyed they lose the upgrade.

I don't know if any of that is even possible but if so I think that could be interesting. In small fast games it wouldn't be as big of a risk so you could try it more often. In big free for all type games you couldn't just chronoshift 2 spies early and get the benefit of them for the whole game, it would just be for a while or you would have to infiltrate multiple times.

[ReaperAA]

I had been recently tinkering with stats of Apocs and Tank Destroyers (with a bit of experimenting with myself by using 2 laptops) and I have come up with some changes that make them feel really good to me now.

For Apocs:

• Fire on the move (already in YRR)
• Speed increased from 4 to 5
• Range increased from 5.75  to around 6.25
• AA damage increased from 50 to 65 (makes them kill a rocketeer in 1-burst) and missile speed increased to 40. 
• [optional] Apocs immune to mind control.

For Tank Destroyers:

• Range increased from 5 to around 6.25 (range is 5.75 in YRR). Though I would suggest Grizzlies to have range increased to around 5.75 to make Grizzlies vs TDs more fair.
• Speed increased from 5 to 6 (already in YRR)
• ROT increased from 5 to 7.
• Full 100% warhead damage to miners and terror drones

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by ReaperAA

[xe3]

I like those TD changes. As for Apocs, not sure... I still don't see a point in buying them even with those changes. Maybe if the game drags long enough and you amass enough of them they will be worth it.

As for being immune to mind control, might be overboard since Yuri revolves around mind control... But at the same time, having one $800 bald fuck instantly own a $1750 unit is just bad design to begin with.

Edited May 27, 2021 by xe3

[[CC] RaVaGe]

12 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

I had been recently tinkering with stats of Apocs and Tank Destroyers (with a bit of experimenting with myself by using 2 laptops) and I have come up with some changes that make them feel really good to me now.

For Apocs:

• Fire on the move (already in YRR)
• Speed increased from 4 to 5
• Range increased from 5.75  to around 6.25
• AA damage increased from 50 to 65 (makes them kill a rocketeer in 1-burst) and missile speed increased to 40. 
• [optional] Apocs immune to mind control.

For Tank Destroyers:

• Range increased from 5 to around 6.25 (range is 5.75 in YRR). Though I would suggest Grizzlies to have range increased to around 5.75 to make Grizzlies vs TDs more fair.
• Speed increased from 5 to 6 (already in YRR)
• ROT increased from 5 to 7.
• Full 100% warhead damage to miners and terror drones

 

Basically the Apoc I had in my YRR and the TD had some of those changes but was OP in testing in conjunction with other changes.

[ReaperAA]

On 5/28/2021 at 2:55 AM, [CC] RaVaGe said:

Basically the Apoc I had in my YRR and the TD had some of those changes but was OP in testing in conjunction with other changes.

Late reply. Yeah I saw your ini file the other day and noticed that your changes for the Apoc are pretty similar to mine. However, I noticed that you didn't buff TDs at all. Why is that? Almost everyone agrees that TDs need some buff. The argument is usually "how much" should the TDs be buffed. The vanilla TDs are so weak that even Rhinos (a unit that TD is supposed to counter) can beat them due to better range, speed and turret. Heck, even when going head-to-head in a 1 vs 1 tank fight, the TD "barely" wins against a Rhino. And this not count how bad the TDs are against everything else.

Also choosing Germany means that we can't use paradrops or black eagles. The vanilla TDs just don't feel worth it.

 

On 5/27/2021 at 5:30 PM, xe3 said:

I like those TD changes. As for Apocs, not sure... I still don't see a point in buying them even with those changes. Maybe if the game drags long enough and you amass enough of them they will be worth it.

As for being immune to mind control, might be overboard since Yuri revolves around mind control... But at the same time, having one $800 bald fuck instantly own a $1750 unit is just bad design to begin with.

It's true that Apocs are still are "very late game" type of unit. But I do think that they are definitely pretty good in SvS now at the very least. And if SWs are enabled, they can probably also be used for base destruction (Apocs do 100% damage to structures and you can IC 9 Apocs)

 

Also to @burg93, I noticed some mistakes in the ini file. The [FlakGuyGun] has range of 6, but you guys forgot to update [FlakGuyGunE]. Also some minor syntax mistakes like incorrect Apocalypse spellings and having Tank Destroyers code in the "Allied" section instead of having them in the country specific(Germany) section.

Edited May 30, 2021 by ReaperAA

[[CC] RaVaGe]

6 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

The vanilla TDs just don't feel worth it.

They are worth it in conjunction with my other changes that even out AvS at the very top level.
Thus I saw no need to buff them anymore, if anything I'd give them better ROT, +1 speed and make sure they have the same range as Rhino.

6 hours ago, ReaperAA said:

It's true that Apocs are still are "very late game" type of unit. But I do think that they are definitely pretty good in SvS now at the very least. And if SWs are enabled, they can probably also be used for base destruction (Apocs do 100% damage to structures and you can IC 9 Apocs)

Yes, I believe it's necessary for late game Soviets, with my Apoc changes they weren't all that OP as people claimed and just performed their role as a late game super heavy MBT. 

In SvS they would replace Rhino at lab level, in SvA they would be circumstancial as building them means you have less numbers and Allied with Chrono Legionnaires and BFs can just kite them all day.
In SvY you don't want to build them, because they would have too high of a risk of getting mind controlled.

Edited May 31, 2021 by [CC] RaVaGe

[XGalaxyZ]

10 hours ago, [CC] RaVaGe said:

They are worth it in conjunction with my other changes that even out AvS at the very top level.
Thus I saw no need to buff them anymore, if anything I'd give them better ROT, +1 speed and make sure they have the same range as Rhino.

Yes, I believe it's necessary for late game Soviets, with my Apoc changes they weren't all that OP as people claimed and just performed their role as a late game super heavy MBT. 

In SvS they would replace Rhino at lab level, in SvA they would be circumstancial as building them means you have less numbers and Allied with Chrono Legionnaires and BFs can just kite them all day.
In SvY you don't want to build them, because they would have too high of a risk of getting mind controlled.

Glad you said You dont want Soviet players to build apocalypse tanks!  Because! whenever you see A Soviet Player spamming apocalypse tanks! The Yuri Player SHOULD ALWAYS SPAM 2000 YURI BRUTES! VS THEIR APOCALYPSE TANKS! To win! ❤️ As im always gonna spam! tons of yuri brutes! Vs everything i encounter! As Hungry Yuri Brutes!   When i lead them! Would Never! Be Useless! or Expensive! ❤️ 

On 5/26/2021 at 7:59 AM, CCCP84 said:

I believe that the power of the reactor should not be reduced. This is what I wanted to say in this post.
I agree about underutilized units. Let's reduce the price of chrono legionaire to 1200. And increase the range of the Destroyer Tank and Tesla Tank.

Let Hungry Tesla Tanks and Tesla Troopers! Be more useful!  Give them more attack range. As i spam them alot in Appels Older wasteland map. The trooper* And they work perfectly until Desolators/Seals/Tanya comes. 

[Ezer_2000]

That's truth. SEALs should be removed from the game and not be available even in high-tech level

[ReaperAA]

3 hours ago, Ezer_2000 said:

That's truth. SEALs should be removed from the game and not be available even in high-tech level

That's it? I think you should go one step further and suggest devs to remove Battle fortress, Magnetrons and Masterminds, so that nothing from the Allied and Yuri's side should stand in the way of Rhino Spam. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by ReaperAA

[ReaperAA]

17 hours ago, [CC] RaVaGe said:

if anything I'd give them better ROT, +1 speed and make sure they have the same range as Rhino.

And that's pretty much the main changes I did. The difference is that I gave it very slightly more range (only because TDs lack a turret. If they had a turret, I would have given them same 5.75 range as the Rhino) and gave them 100% damage against drones and miners to allow them to be used more aggressively and make enemy rely on infantry/fodder to deal with them.

[The_One]

Great update patch.

 

Not sure if anyone has mentioned anywhere else, but the "No Dog Engineer Kills" toggle is broken, dogs can kill engineers no matter what you set this at.  

 

I know this is a small option, but for some game types and setups it is important to have working.

 

Can this be fixed in a hot fix?

 

Thanks for great game support!

 

 

[Ezer_2000]

On 5/31/2021 at 5:07 AM, [CC] RaVaGe said:

In SvY you don't want to build them, because they would have too high of a risk of getting mind controlled.

Increase their range to +1 more than mastermind.

[Ford (retired)]

20 hours ago, Ezer_2000 said:

Increase their range to +1 more than mastermind.

I'm confident masterminds & mind control are designed to counter expensive units.  TDs have less range than Rhinos which is part of why TDs are bad....so why would giving apocs longer range than their counter unit be a good idea?

     I think a few issues with apocs is they are good against many things which can make them hard to balance.  If apocs can't get outranged, then they will just beat everything as an example and there would be no reason to make anything but apocs.  Also Iron Curtain has little counterplay and is required in order to make things like Demo Trucks and Apocs usable.  (also SW off is dumb imo and is like playing with lower tech level, the game should be balanced around one setting)

[Ezer_2000]

+1 apoc range does not mean they 1 shot mastermind. Don't be stupid.

30 minutes ago, AndrewFord said:

I think a few issues with apocs is they are good against many things

They're trash against many things.

Iron curtain is useless on apocs due to their low speed.

[Ford (retired)]

1 hour ago, Ezer_2000 said:

+1 apoc range does not mean they 1 shot mastermind. Don't be stupid.

They're trash against many things.

Iron curtain is useless on apocs due to their low speed.

It's not stupidity, I gave u a smart analogy using TDs and Rhinos to show how difference 1 range makes

     I don't think you understand what I'm saying.  If you buff apocs to 7 range (+1 range over MMs), then that would make apocs good vs MANY THINGS.  Apocs that are in range to do damage will kill that target quickly, correct?.  Units that can do good damage vs everything are VERY HARD TO BALANCE and Apocs would either be useless or OP.  BFs are hard to balance for this same reason.  I don't think you understand that concept.

As far as the Iron Curtain; if you use an IC on them, you can attack whatever you want.  Buildings don't move, why would mobility be an issue for IC+Apocs?

 

[Ezer_2000]

6 hours ago, AndrewFord said:

It's not stupidity, I gave u a smart analogy using TDs and Rhinos to show how difference 1 range makes

     I don't think you understand what I'm saying.  If you buff apocs to 7 range (+1 range over MMs), then that would make apocs good vs MANY THINGS.  Apocs that are in range to do damage will kill that target quickly, correct?.  Units that can do good damage vs everything are VERY HARD TO BALANCE and Apocs would either be useless or OP.  BFs are hard to balance for this same reason.  I don't think you understand that concept.

As far as the Iron Curtain; if you use an IC on them, you can attack whatever you want.  Buildings don't move, why would mobility be an issue for IC+Apocs?

I think you are playing against bots only.

They'd be same good as BF. But they're still slow and it's easy to avoid them too.

[Ezer_2000]

No idea how you are going to move your apocs from your base when mirages and BF with GGIs are rolling around.

[Ford (retired)]

5 hours ago, Ezer_2000 said:

No idea how you are going to move your apocs from your base when mirages and BF with GGIs are rolling around.

You have more than just apocs to utilize.  If i were to attack a base with a 3x3 of IC rhinos or 3x3 of IC Apocs id choose the apocs.  Just make rhinos as per normal soviet gameplay, then when u wanna IC make some apocs. It really is a simple concept.

5 hours ago, Ezer_2000 said:

I think you are playing against bots only.

They'd be same good as BF. But they're still slow and it's easy to avoid them too.

Your logic is you want apocs to outrange MMs, you said nothing about BFs.  Why are you basing balance on the apocs interaction with MMs in the first place?  That's like saying conscripts should have +1 range over navy seals.

Apocs seem the closest to usable in SvS matchups in critical mass since sovs dont really have other ways to deal with them than driving rhinos around them.  7 range apocs would mean only apocs would be used late game in SvS and having a unit uncounterable in a match up is not any form of balance.

May i reiterate, units that do good damage vs everything are HARD TO BALANCE, especially in RA2 where damage types usually deal a lot or very little damage to certain armor types.

[Ezer_2000]

4 hours ago, AndrewFord said:

HARD TO BALANCE

It depends of what gameplay you are expecting after making some changes. I guess we have different vision and viewpoint for this.

Some people want to balance rhino and grizzly to make both ther spams are equal. And others prefer to keep grizzlies weakier and use tricks with other allied units to balance this situation out. Since here are persons with different vision of game here never be a single "Rebalance patch", becasue any compositon of solutions from different game concepts is not going to be balanced for obvious reason... Well, there is a little chance it's possible to do. But for now we don't enough experience to form the idea of a new game. At this point, firstly few different balance mods should be done for testing and peforming a further discussion without using any voting methods. After that, if we won't find a single solution, we repeat this cycle with new ideas and try to find the solution again. We can repeat this again and again untill life ends we find the idea of this new game concept. As I told before, this is almost impossible. You can read latest topics related to this patch and modifying the game and find out how different players expectations about the game, and how they are opposite to each other (that really can make you laugh).

I dropped the idea of game balancing. But if you want I can make few maps with offered changes to let you try them and find advantages and disadvantages and maybe suppose the main direction for further changes. Anyway, this will form more precise and objective opinion (not influenced by personal feelings of an author).

[xe3]

The best way to balance Apocs: forget about them. It's simply a shitty unit. Go buy Rhinos with Teslas. Using IC on Apocs is also a waste of IC and $$$... Yea you might destroy a building when your fatass gets over there, but when it wears off it's a 100% L. When a Kirov has more use than an Apoc.... You know it's bad. I'd even say V3s have more use than that hunk of junk.

IIRC in Red Alert 3 they've completely redesigned Apocs. They knew it was terrible in RA2.

Edit: read a bit more of this thread. The problem with Apocs is that they're basically Jackshit at All Trades. Can you name one thing that Apoc excels at when compared to any other unit?

Sieging a base? Prisms, Choppers, Magnetrons, BFs excel at that. Even V3s have their use.

Upper hand in basic tank battle? Yeah, maybe if you live long enough for that mircale to happen. But honestly you'd do the same thing with Rhinos and Teslas if the game drags that long, and your opponent is technically already beaten.

Armor? BF is almost if not identical in HP and armor classification.

Speed? All units run circles around it.

Good against infantry? Just about every other tank is better at that.

Good AA? If you're using Apocs as AA you deserve to lose.

How about Mindcontrol? Absolutely useless. What would you rather have against a single $800 Yuri clone, an Apoc or 2-3 Rhinos/1-2 Teslas? Now you have your answer.

Even if the most OP scenario you can think of.... Chrono + IC.... Every other unit mentioned above will do better.

Can't flank, can't outtank, can't catch up, can't retreat, damage is nothing to scream about, cheesed by air units, too slow, too expensive, too long to build, sucks against infantry, gets kited until no tomorrow, one shot by mind control...All that, for a hefty bill of $1750. What a deal! 

Edited June 3, 2021 by xe3

[NizzyStorm]

6 hours ago, xe3 said:

The best way to balance Apocs: forget about them. It's simply a shitty unit. 

IIRC in Red Alert 3 they've completely redesigned Apocs. They knew it was terrible in RA2.

In RA3 the Apoc is also rarely used there apparently. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by NizzyStorm

[[CC] RaVaGe]

@AndrewFord @Ezer_2000
I've been continuing on from where I left off in my version of YRR before the guys who made this client "feature" butchered it.
Have a look at the changes : C&C Yuri's Revenge - 2021 Mod v1.03b - Pastebin.com

It's more of a mod than a balance patch, because I believe that a lot more than a few things need changing to fully refine things.
At the current state I've made all factions useful and work with their own playstyle/unique meta, just need to fine tune some units.
I haven't implemented any new units, structures or features just yet.

The Infantry combat is much improved and varied, numerous unit balance changes made just to make the game more interesting.

What I've planned for the future is:

• Enabling Air to Air combat with jets.
• Rebalanced Veterancy.
• More unique SW features, such as a long lasting Weather Storm with fewer lightning strikes, but the possibility of shutting down tesla/mind control weapons for its duration.
• Psychic Dominator being mostly about mind control and less about dealing damage directly.
• Tesla coils being chargeable by tesla tanks.
• Swimming Ivan, Spy.
• Transport Chopper for Soviets.
• Being able to place certain defensive structures on water. Eg: Tesla Coil, Flak Cannon, Patriot Missile...etc

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by [CC] RaVaGe

[Johnny Cage]

Personally I think that the only thing that is worth of this patch is that the tesla tank and apocalypse fire when moving, otherwise it is unnecessary. What is required is that ALL units (except Tanya and Seal) can enter buildings. That would be useful, without modifying the original damage values.