"Useless" units

[IntoTheRain]

16 hours ago, c0rpsmakr said:

There are and always have been useless units/structures. You coming in here (like many others have) wanting to change the way a game has been for 20 years without knowing everything about the units youre talking about doesnt make sense. Like i said previously, if you want to mod your own ts with alterations you find fitting, cool. But dont attempt to "fix" a game that many of us have loved and played for many, many years, especially without our input. Its been done and irritated many of us and caused many older players to quit when it was done by strike team, and has even been done on cncnet.

There isn't that much to know, the units in TS aren't that complex.  There are 3-4 units that have a few tricks, but thats about it.

I played TibSun plenty.  I come back to a random CnC game every once in a while to take a break from SC2.  Just because I walked away from the game years ago doesn't mean I've forgotten how to play.  Like you said, the game hasn't changed at all.  

90% of games are GDI Mirrors.  Infantry become extremely suspect after the first 3 minutes.  Harvester hunting isn't viable at all.  Frontal assaults aren't cost effective past the mid game.  The game is mostly about Moving Carryalls around with Disrupters/MMII or Bombers with some Titans mixed in. (or CC/Banshees if you lived that long with Nod) Its bland and repetitive.  There is a reason why TibSun is struggling for players compared to either of the first Red Alert titles. (which are themselves bland and repetitive, but less so than TS)

The veterans you speak of aren't opposed to changes because they think it will make the game worse.  They are opposed to changes because they have gotten comfortable with the game in its current state.  Anyone sitting here telling me that there aren't multiple bad units in TS is lying and we both know it.  (and no, there don't have to be useless units and structures.  Almost every modern RTS manages to make its units good.)
 

4 hours ago, JamesRyko said:

Your missing the point in that the only reason you think it’s a problem is that you lack the experience and knowledge to understand the uses and neaunces of the units.

I understand the units fine.  I played on and off for several years.

But I'll tell you what.  Since you are so confident that all the units are fine as is, why don't we setup some 1v1s where you show me the power of mass Wolverines.  Or mass Stealth Tanks.  Or mass Cyborgs.  Or any of the units listed.  You can show me all of these amazing 'nuances' that no one else seems to know about.

[c0rpsmakr]

They are more complex than you're making them out to be. Harvester hunting is a main tactic when actual good players vs eachother, but again, there are so many inaccuracies in these posts that it's not really worth investing time in. Point being, this 20 year old game should not be changed because you don't like the way it's played. Create your own mod if you dislike things about it.

[Milkey Wilkey]

On 10/29/2018 at 11:57 AM, X3M said:

Juggernaut syndrome: Bigger is better. Plus this rule that the big units can step on the smaller ones. They worked hard, to reduce this effect in C&C3. Where unit sizes and clumsiness also play a role.

The squishing has ruined a lot in the games. Players tend to ignore infantry, once tanks roll out. Because, squish,. squish...squish,squish,squish.

And the more expensive the infantry units are, the more effective this squishing is.

have you heard about the little "x" button? ?

also, RA2 makes a good amount of measures to counter this: auto-scattering units, auto-scatter when ranked up, uncrushable units. TS could use many of that.

[X3M]

Tell that X story to the players that met my light tanks rush in red alert 1.

[IntoTheRain]

7 hours ago, JamesRyko said:

I’ve got some free time later tonight if you want.

I should be on for the next hour to an hour and a half.  I have to go out after that.

We can set a time sometime during the week if that doesn't work.

[X3M]

Put that war declaration into PM's.

Are you trying to hyjack the topic JamesRyko?

[IntoTheRain]

IntoTheRain

[X3M]

Stop trolling JamesRyko.

[X3M]

You can't win that.

- You are trying to hyjack this topic.
- You are telling others in an indirect way to shut up. Even though they deleted that post.
- You are calling people noob for posting here.
- Your PM to me can be read by admins. And if not, I made a screen shot of it right away.

You know what. This topic's title. Seems to be very fitting to you.

Good day sir.

[IntoTheRain]

Not a fair statement.

Game 1 was won off the back off Bombers and EMP.
Game 2 I got smashed yeah.  The pathing AI is pretty old, and the APC/Engie wasn't moving like I expected it to.

Anyway I plan on continuing pushing for balance changes to hopefully turn the game into something decent.  After a couple of days of playing I remember why I keep walking away. 

Things I want to add to my current changelist:
1) The map balance is a joke by modern standards.  Every spawn point plays completely differently with Tib spawned different distances apart.  The game would really benefit from a rotating map pool for ladder as well as new maps being cycled in to keep the game fresh.

2) Nod is bad.  Like really bad.  The only place anyone is playing them is on the infinite Tib maps with super defenseable locations.  They definitely need more power in the early game, and their lategame needs to be broadened beyond CC/Banshees.  Additionally, Stealth needs to be less frustrating to fight against.

3) EMP Cannon makes ground armies obsolete.  Every game turns into Bombers + Carryalls because actually attacking with a ground army is suicide.  I'd like to see a rework toward making it more of an anti Disrupter/MMII/CC weapon.  Give it a much faster projectile speed but dramatically reduce its AOE.  Buff Tick Tanks and Rockets to give NOD a more viable ground army to face off against Titans with.

4) The Laser/Vulcan are lousy.  Both need reworks.  The Vulcan is just bad, while the laser just feels misdesigned.  With GDI's advantage in infantry fights, and deployed Tick Tanks giving them a decent turret, the Laser would make more sense with a heavier anti infantry focus.

Edited November 4, 2018 by IntoTheRain

[IntoTheRain]

On 11/4/2018 at 2:40 PM, JamesRyko said:

You are trying to create an equality of outcome situation and that is simply not possible. I think you might enjoy sim city more than a competitive strategy game.

I'm really not.

But you are right, I don't enjoy the game in its current incarnation.  Its Bombers and Carryalls and nothing else, which makes it among the worst CnCs for multiplayer.  

There is potential there to turn it into something playable, but the 10 or so of you who actually enjoy endless carryall dancing are basically insisting on keeping the game unplayable.  Which leaves anyone new coming along with an uphill battle to try and make the game into something decent. (you know, where more than 6 or so units from 1 faction are actually useful)

Now if you will move along, some of us are trying to make something out of this pile.

[dkeeton]

On 11/4/2018 at 8:40 AM, JamesRyko said:

Quit bullying me

If anyone is interested, last night I easily defeated intotherain in 2 games using nothing but barracks units in one and wolverines in the other. I even let him build for 10+ minutes before attacking in the wolverine game.

 

case and point.

Did you guys play vet patched map?

[c0rpsmakr]

Aside from the fact that none of the people commenting who are proposing their opinions on unit modifications have fully grasped how to even use all of the units in the game yet to where they would have any credible insight on what should be changed, none of the developers are here. We should not be considering alterations to a game that's been set in stone for decades and would affect the small community entirely, unless of course, again, someone wants to make their own modded version. I never said that the game couldn't be better, I'd have my own ideas if I were ever given the means to do so, but it would be my own version that people could have the freedom to try, not something that's forced upon them and would affect every other player who might not like my alterations, which is the entire issue i had with what was done. Nobody has the right to do that if they didn't make the game themselves......

If people really want to make changes to ts that will improve it for everyone objectively, bug fixes, clans, ranked match promotion, maybe even a cncnet version of Sunbot, further promotion for the game, tournaments, TRAINING SESSIONS BY MORE THAN JUST ME, Q&A between new and pro players, better regulation of inflammatory speech on the forums/game (Iooking at other gaming forums, I see so much productive and thought-provoking discussion as opposed to the hate speech I see here), all could be implemented and have a more profound beneficial impact.

Edited November 7, 2018 by c0rpsmakr

[X3M]

@c0rpsmakrCan't help with the hate speech. I am not an admin, sorry. Hope we can at least continue the topic a bit normally. Can you perhaps direct your comments a bit more to who you are responding. I think that might reduce confusion. At least on my part.

But yeah, a project by itself, created by those who suggest alterations. Free to try it out. That could work. That could still work. it needs devotion though. But I think that even someone who doesn't know the games, should be able to make a mod with their own name on it. It can be funny to try such mods out. IF, certain unwritten rules are met.

I find it strange that with an editor as good as tibed. Something like amass modding didn't really happen. Or did it??

I know there are some mods out there. But they are mainly created to have some trolling action in the game itself. Which is one of the 3 main reasons why I strayed away from TS. No guidance or whatsoever with the implemented statistics of the units, only free wins for the ones creating the mods. Aka, wasted time for others. A real modder will watch from the sidelines and keeps modifying the game.

The single player mission games are the best in this regard. Here you get to play against ai for fun. I like those.

By the way. Where did your idea come from that this topic was a "forcing the game (or more specific TS) to change" topic? That... was never my intention. I said before what my goal was with the topic. I also still don't understand why it was moved to the TS section. Was it really just because I started with the hoover MRLS? What if I decided to start with an unit from another game?

 

[c0rpsmakr]

3 hours ago, X3M said:

@c0rpsmakrCan't help with the hate speech. I am not an admin, sorry. Hope we can at least continue the topic a bit normally. Can you perhaps direct your comments a bit more to who you are responding. I think that might reduce confusion. At least on my part.

But yeah, a project by itself, created by those who suggest alterations. Free to try it out. That could work. That could still work. it needs devotion though. But I think that even someone who doesn't know the games, should be able to make a mod with their own name on it. It can be funny to try such mods out. IF, certain unwritten rules are met.

I find it strange that with an editor as good as tibed. Something like amass modding didn't really happen. Or did it??

I know there are some mods out there. But they are mainly created to have some trolling action in the game itself. Which is one of the 3 main reasons why I strayed away from TS. No guidance or whatsoever with the implemented statistics of the units, only free wins for the ones creating the mods. Aka, wasted time for others. A real modder will watch from the sidelines and keeps modifying the game.

The single player mission games are the best in this regard. Here you get to play against ai for fun. I like those.

By the way. Where did your idea come from that this topic was a "forcing the game (or more specific TS) to change" topic? That... was never my intention. I said before what my goal was with the topic. I also still don't understand why it was moved to the TS section. Was it really just because I started with the hoover MRLS? What if I decided to start with an unit from another game?

 

I was directing my comment at anybody thinking that a grand fundamental change to the game at this stage in its life cycle, rather than making their own mod for others to try. I was suggesting ways that would definitely better the game/community that are all objectively good, rather than some ways that are based on opinion and would change the entire way this game is played. I also won't respond to trolls.

 

If you were to ask me what unit modifications I personally would do, I would make the armor better for several nod units as well as make them more accurate, i would add in another structure in the place of gates or just delete them altogether, improve the light armor of wolverines and attack power, among several other things. However, this would only be done on a mod that i'd allow others to try, not change the core game itself.

Edited November 7, 2018 by c0rpsmakr

[Holland]

Lmao. Life changes continuously, something that doesnt change with it will die. So modders, rise! If harv truce seems unfair to you, mod more hijackers. If u know what u want as a pro, play or mod a veterans patch! 

Less convo more mods please!

[SaintZ]

I feel like every unit has its place, be it small or massive. 

For Nod I (almost) never use: Cyborgs (too cost ineffective) , Buggies (max 1 on rare occasions for early scouting), TT's (outclassed by Titans & less useful + cost ineffective than rocket inf and attack cycles), and Stealth Tanks (Too expensive, only useful for harv killing and surprise attacks if opponent has no MSA). 

For GDI I (almost) never use: Wolverines (same reason as Nod buggies), Hover MLRS (paper armor, too expensive, underwhelming attack power), 

[X3M]

Any one using the "normal" orca and harpy?

[SaintZ]

3 hours ago, X3M said:

Any one using the "normal" orca and harpy?

Very situationally.. And only early to midgame when I have to suicide scout or to kill inf rushes.

[IntoTheRain]

Alright I've been playing TS fairly consistently for a few weeks now, and I've basically come to the conclusion that none of the weaker units can be saved without major reworks to the way the game plays.

In a game where you have access to late game tech in the first 3 minutes AND that tech is vastly superior to the early and mid game stuff, there really isn't a way to make the early and mid stuff viable unless you dramatically drop the power of the late game units, which I'm sure the existing TS community would balk at.  I've talked with several modders, and there are enough limitations on the engine that I don't think there really is a way to delay access to the late game tech.  Other engine limitations mean things like aircraft performance varies dramatically depending on what style of attack the aircraft uses. (curly shuffle vs bombing run)

There are some changes I still think would help the game out a lot, but at the end of the day its still always going to be about fast teching to the best units.

[Mole40k]

TBH I agree with a fair few points that IntoTheRain has made. I've been arguing for 15+ years that TS is fundamentally inbalanced and isn't really all that good from a modern standpoint. You certainly wouldn't make a game like it today. The progression is far too skewed and as you say, the 3-minutes-to-max-tech also leads to major issues in terms of how the game plays and the enjoyment non-pros can get from it.

The thing you have to understand here though Rain, is that to most people on this forum, TS is THE game that got them into online gaming, and it's a game they've stuck with through thick and thin. I think you'll just have to agree to disagree on this one ?

[X3M]

IMHO, Perfect answer Mole40k.

I also suspect that the resource system is flawed for the multiplayer experience.

The single player missions feel decent to me. But in most. It is mass titans. Just like how td players go mass medium tanks.

[Kampfkekskrieger]

The most embarrassing for me is, that C&C is like the most popular RTS, and didnt get at least 5 addons for C&C1, 5 Addons for C&CRA1, 5 Addons for each, including Generals, AND at least 2-3 C&C1/RA1/TS/... Sequels each, continuing on that graphic level, ... take that sims games as an example, I think you know that game... everything video-story featured, like a Startrek voyager-series,

Outplaying/unrolling/continuing/finishing out the plans that westwood had...with their employees together, with x5 the amounts of games/1xcontent in their policy, if westwood would have delivered 5xcontent in one game, to 5x the money -> everyone would have bough the 'full version games' all without freetoplay-concepts!

 

how can the most succesful publisher not recognize the cash-cow they bought, if developed on? Why didnt they, despite continuing content-identic sports games and trash each year?,

-> solving connection issues at the latest 2 years after release, adapting the balancing to the state 'every unit is playable' as a minimum requirement.

(Keeping the old data and games accessible for historical and retro purposes)

what could a big publisher and a BIG name do within 15 years? NOTHING? (what we got IS nothing, compared to the wish lists!)

-> further investigations into making it a widely spread all-time-online/Esports game equal to counter strike in all versions, not just for geeks that refuse to stop playing it.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Kampfkekskrieger

[IntoTheRain]

On 11/21/2018 at 2:09 AM, Mole40k said:

The thing you have to understand here though Rain, is that to most people on this forum, TS is THE game that got them into online gaming, and it's a game they've stuck with through thick and thin. I think you'll just have to agree to disagree on this one ?

I've pretty much accepted that no one who stuck with the game this long is interested in making any real changes to core gameplay.

There are some areas I think could still be improved upon, (mobile AA, infantry, eco harass) but at the end of the day, small numbers of powerful late game units are going to continue to be the dominant strat.

Here are the revised stats I've been working on for a TS patch.  I no longer have plans to try and implement these on maps for testing, so I won't bore anyone with the details, but I will leave them up on the off chance someone else will find inspiration in them and carry on.  There is a modernized damage type table mostly aimed at rocket units, as well as reworks to most of the weaker units and defenses.  The only unfinished changes for initial testing were the Orca and the Harpy, both of which have serious engine limitations that makes them very difficult to make useful without a total unit rewrite.  I haven't touched any of the strong units, but I suspect that all of the above changes would be of limited value without at least a few of them getting nerfed somewhere.

[X3M]

Impressive list. You are doing math which interests me. May I suggest the following 2 change of viewpoints plus an invite:
- Keep track of the original value's. Place them side by side. So, old and new are both shown.
- Don't do just DPS. DPS means nothing in case of combat situations. It only matters when your unit has no opposition and is simply harassing defenceless objects. Also, DPS means nothing if you don't add in the RPS mechanic of the type of projectiles. As strange as it sounds. A whole list of number of shots needed to kill a certain opponent is a much better value to compare. Even better is when you include the ROF/Cool-down and warm-up aspects of each weapon. Meaning, Obelisk warms-up for the first shot, this is extra survival time. A titan shoots immediately, so that projectile requires one less Cool-down for finishing up an opponent.

- If you want to go deeper on certain aspects of RTS gaming. Feel free to PM me.