Turret vs Med Tank

[AchromicWhite]

; Medium Tank gun

[MediumCannon]

Projectile=Cannon

Damage=30

ROF=50

Range=4.75

Report=Tnkfire4

MuzzleFlash=GUNFIRE

 

; Mammoth tank gun (thought I'd throw this one in too).

[HeavyCannon]

Projectile=Cannon

Damage=40

ROF=80

Range=4.75

Report=Tnkfire6

MuzzleFlash=GUNFIRE

 

; Turret gun

[TurretCannon]

Projectile=Cannon

Damage=40

ROF=60

Range=6.00

Report=Tnkfire6

MuzzleFlash=GUNFIRE

 

The HP of both the tank and turret are exactly the same (400), but the turret can also repair.

The turret is strait up better 1v1 and is cheaper. It is worth noting that the ROF of the turret is less than the med tank, but it has more DPS and longer range, OUCH!

 

The comparison between the two feels similar to comparing the AdvG.T. to the MRLS, but the Adv.G.T. is better than the MRLS and costs 200 more, even though the MRLS is even over priced for what you get.

[Nyerguds]

The Turret's been nerfed a lot since the first release, actually; the building originally cost like $250 or something.

[AchromicWhite]

I have heard that... A terrifying prospect for GDI players, haha... it's still quite clearly overpowered, unless we are saying that Nod can't actually fight GDI face on with it's units; which isn't true, in fact, it's quite the opposite, in many cases.

 

BTW, I assume you've been busy, but I've been trying to get C&CUGE working. While I can get the program open in DosBox, it doesn't seem to be reading the actual game files. I do have UGE in a directory in the C&C95 folder, too. You don't know why that would be, do you?

[cn2mc]

The best part about turrets is that you sell them for $300 and get 3 men. So they basically cost only what you paid for the repairs. Building turrets does limit Nod expansion though, you may only gain one cell for $600 (build time is actually more important than cash here) as opposed to 6-8 squares if you use power/HoN/silos to expand for the same cash/time. That can screw you over on maps where you can and need to expand.

 

Also, note that the mammoth, even with lower range and worse ROF, deals more DPS than the turret, because of the twin cannons.

[AchromicWhite]

Yeah, I'm aware of the mammoth thing. Perhaps didn't actually need to be looked at in comparison, and I do agree with you about how turrets will slow down the rest of your macro (econ etc).

 

This statement, here about turrets, is true for all defences, though. They always slow your macro, and that's good. It's one of my dislikes about the RA2 formulae of being able to make both a defence and regular structure at the same time. I just think, for what you get, the turret is insanely strong, and it's only real argument of it being the way that it is, is the idea that Nod can't fight head on.

 

I think Jacko is right that WW intended the light tank to be the mainstay of the main Nod force, and that it wasn't expected that bike/buggy would be so strong. Particularly the buggy.

[cn2mc]

Compared to turrets, AGTs are 50% stronger, their armour is less prone to anti-armour (tank and AA rocket) attacks, they can be walled in, off-centre targetting generally makes them more durable, AND the AGT is multi-purpose and better suited for it's role than the turret - a single AGT can create a kill zone for Nod men and LVs, while a single turret is easy picking for almost anything on either side. So turrets work best in groups or as forward attacking positions - near the enemy base or tib field, etc. That's when the extra range really comes in very handy.

 

I don't agree about the Nod fighting GDI head-on thing completely, though. If GDI commits to and executes a good tank rush without losing harvs or a WF in the process, Nod has no mobile forces to effectively stop the push. The way Nod can win this is by crippling economy and production in a base trade, and then hoping that their forces AND the turrets, can actualy stop the tank push (still not a sure bet on most maps).

[Jacko]

The only problem with the Base Trade is that Nod will end up winning overall around 90% of the time anyway, simply because of how much faster their stuff is, so the Nod player has time to build turrets and rockets, while the GDI player does not.

[AchromicWhite]

Yes indeed. It's one more reason that stops GDI from being able to move out.

[cn2mc]

Throwing around numbers like 90% without any actual statistic or even a count being made will not sway my argument. If we factor in everything, and assume the game is played on a regular map (as opposed to a freakishly overgrown or open one), I'd say Nod's chances are much slimmer than that. Also, AGT's are your friends when you push out. Or just spam power and barracks so he can't possibly shut your grens down even if he succeeds in the trade.

[AchromicWhite]

Somewhat true. I'd argue that if GDI has to go into AGT, though, that it messes up their econ. AGT, unlike any Nod defences, are a staple part of the GDI force (dependable HE). All money spent on these is not spend directly on forces, or things which help to create more forces. If Nod has any opportunities where they can move around it (as they're stationary), they can, in this way, effectively 'split' the GDI forces up.

 

And I would say that between turrets, bikes and hands (producing flamers and rocket men) that a GDI force is far from impossible to stop. In fact, it takes some fancy micro of pulling back grens to snipe flamer troops, while trying to keep the grens close by to save the tanks from bikes and telling tanks to attack turrets (because grens and hummers don't do jack). All this in comparison to making turrets, hand/flamers, focusing fire with bikes... yeah, I think GDI has it ruff their, too.

 

Maybe you're right, though, maybe there's something I'm missing. I think there's some validity to what I'm saying, though.

[Nyerguds]

The best part about turrets is that you sell them for $300 and get 3 men. So they basically cost only what you paid for the repairs.

You do realize that's true for all buildings, right? The general philosophy behind the sell logic is that you get half of it back in money and the other half in personnel. The only buildings on which this doesn't apply are those which cost more than 1000 since only 5 minigunners can spawn, and for the CY they made a special logic even there to compensate that a bit.

[cn2mc]

Yeah, it's definately hard for GDI, any defender has the advantage if he has the cash flow. But GDI tanks have much more staying power than Nod stuff, so they have more time to demolish the really valuable targets, airstrip and CY (better in that order, I think, although it all depends on how Nod built their base).

Going for AGTs doesn't mess your economy up all that much (build/sell radar, etc) but building one in the wrong spot certainly does. You know, when you have them, but still get your harvs and WF killed.

 

Interesting point about the 'splitting' of forces thing. Essentially, you've 'split' 2-3 tanks from your force if you build 2 AGTs, that's less than 2 tanks moey-wise + some men if you sell the comm. centre, but I add one tank to the equation for time lost in building tech and towers instead of refs/WF. That's really not that much of a loss, considering how much Nod would have to commit if they settle for a base trade, and that you can build tanks and harvs while setting up the towers. So AGTs are basically the alternative to a second WF (which you should build vs. GDI at that point), and unless the map really calls for them early on, they should be timed as one.

 

EDIT: Nyer, I know, the original comparison was between tank and turret so I was listing all the factors. BTW, there are more ecxeptions - the SAM site gives you more men than it should.

[AchromicWhite]

Yes, I agree with your math here, except... If you spend that money on refs/WF, you get a LOT more tanks because you have boosted econ/production, and the Nod turrets can pretty much be built as the GDI force tries to push out... which isn't even often possible if you go too much into AGTs for the exact reason I mention above.

In other words, GDI need a stable HE weapon. It's like, the production builds exponentially, if you keep making AGTs, Nod can go to 2 or even 3 strips and just pump light vehicles. If GDI tries to punch through, they can then turtle up, if needed.

[cn2mc]

Nod need A LOT of harvs to feed even 2 strips, let alone 3. GDI's best bet for a push is at the time they're building the second strip. Possibly then they can take that down or force a cancel, as Nod would be short on cash (extra ref/s for 2nd strip, 2nd strip itself). But this is already diverging quite a bit from the base-trade scenario.

In the long run, building a couple of refs instead of a radar and AGTs is, of course, better for GDI economically, but those will drain huge cash instantly and it will take a while before they turn a profit. All in all, it depends mostly on map and base layout, and on the amount of resources. Lower econ games mean Nod will have less units for effective map control, and less actual resources/places on the map to control or to raid enemy harvs on, so fighting would be more localized and that favours GDI. High econ games, especially on Manu-maps et al., mean that Nod can strike anywhere with much more units, while GDI, for a very long time, will only be able to defend effectively near their base.

[AchromicWhite]

Yeah, for sure.

[Nyerguds]

EDIT: Nyer, I know, the original comparison was between tank and turret so I was listing all the factors. BTW, there are more ecxeptions - the SAM site gives you more men than it should.

You save an amazing $25 when building and selling a SAM instead of just training 4 minigunners in your Hand of Nod! Wow! I guess it just compensates for those >1000 ones rounding down

[AchromicWhite]

Haha, fully worth the idle Con Yard to make those troops, too!

Heck, if you have the cash, you can make a refinery faster than that!

 

Oh, hey, Nyer. Given that the build time of the hpad and refs are based on the full price minus the price  of the "free" unit that comes with it, would lowering the price of a harvister or orca/heli make the structures build slower?

[Nyerguds]

Depends on whether that's hardcoded or actually taken from the unit...

[X3M]

Somehow i feel that an agt is not worth it if you can have 1.25 medium for it.

 

I only have a few around for anti air.

Is there any other valid option to have them?

[TaxOwlbear]

Against groups of infantry, AGTs do pretty well - provided you actually face infantry,

[MattAttack]

I rarely find myself having the time, nor the building capacity for AGTs, even when I the situation desperately calls for it.

 

I only have a few around for anti air.

Is there any other valid option to have them?

 

Stealths, bikes, buggies, engis, lots of stuff.  I think it's just a matter of dedicating the production capacity/time for it.  That, and they're stationary.  Lol, one of my earliest experiences with TD was a DOS dial up 1v1 versus my buddy where I built a bunch of stealths which got too close to a couple of his AGTs.  Motherfucker said "ha ha, I bet that was expensive!"  Granted, I got my revenge like 15 years later... XD

[Jacko]

AGTs are half decent vs bikes and buggies.

Just, like any GDI unit, not on their own. (unless you got like 4 of them)

[AchromicWhite]

Yeah, I make them in key points and put a barracks nearby. In the early game you can get away with just making barracks in response to bike/buggy harassment forces, but later, as the numbers climb, you really need an instant response. Once you get a handful of units and 1 AGT, that's a pretty big deterrent for bike/buggy forces. It also shuts down engineers and pesky flamer troops trying to suicide into your grenadiers.

[X3M]

Perhaps 1 AGT and one GT as team defence would do better against bikes/buggies. This because the AGT has a better durability if the enemy shoots on the GT first. But if they want to get to the AGT, then the GT will have the enemy in range. Very effective against bikes if you take the time for the tower(s) to focus fire.

Maybe better than 2 mediums. But I am not sure.

 

And no doubt that the turret would be a good replacement for the GT once you got tech from both sides.

What do you think?

[ore_truck]

The AGT is durable and good against bikes and buggies so having even 1 near an important building would scare the enemy from sending in their bikes or buggies until they got enough numbers to face it. This can buy some time and save yourself from early rushes but having one or two is enough at the same area because you need to save money to get tanks. The enemy can just attack your harvesters instead of bothering to get close to your defenses.

 

Against GDI, AGTs isn't that useful unless their Con Yard and WF is destroyed but it can still make the enemy think twice before sending grenadiers to support their tanks. The GDI base defenses are only good against infantry and light vehicles and isn't cost effective against tanks. Nod base defenses are the opposite.